It's midnight and my eyes are bleeding (aka Doom 2 UV Speed run in 14:02)

[Grazza]

myk said:

funny how the Player uses the Shotgun guy(s) to hoist himself.

Isn't it just a "standard" thing glide?

[Vile]

Yes, same as the e2m7 jump, it's using a thing to reach the player's fastest speeds in a very limited space. By the time I leap off the rising wall, I'm going at a speed high enough to reach the window.

[myk]

Grazza said:
Isn't it just a "standard" thing glide?

A "flying glide", maybe. The Player seems to impact the Shotgun guys before touching the floor (having been lifted by the rising wall) and when he grazes against them, is lifted high enough to reach the window ledge. Vile's E1M7-015 is a thing glide too, but you don't see the Player go up like that.

EDIT: Ah, nevermind; it seemed like something else was going on there because I could hear a clack that sounded like the wall had risen, but that's the lift Vile stepped on before.

[mlin]

skipping Map32 is Compet-N rule allowable... I think Rambo was recording the full game.. so skipping a level doesn't really count.

If the goal of a minimalist speedrun is to reach the ending screen as quickly as possible, then I fail to see how completing Map 32 is any more necessary than visiting a "secret area" on Map N. After all, this isn't a 100% run. Also, Map 32 has been optimized to the nearest second for many years now, and it doesn't look like 10"XX is possible.

Andrey included Map 32 in his run because Sedlo did. Back when Sedlo did his 30uv1617 run, Map 32 was considered as a good fill-up level. With a completely built run, those extra items and powerups are no longer unnecessary, thus eliminating the need to adhere to tradition. The first runner who breaks out of this saves an easy 13 seconds on his run.

[RamboBones]

On the subject of the trick jump on map 3 I have done many hours of experimenting and here are my results. The first problem is that your average zombieman does *not* walk fast enough to get onto the lift in time, so to this end some waiting around is required togive one of the zombieman time to start the journey towards the lift. Roughly a full second is wasted before the lift is even triggered. With some tricky manouvering the zombieman can be put on the lift. However he is only just on and is at the wrong end, so he hits his head and the lift comes back down, and he can then be guided up to the other end and finally when the lift goes back up he is in the right position to make the jump. Is the jump actually possible now? Well I don't know, everything is in the right place and you have enough time to build up to full speed, but I haven't been bothered to keep trying as even if I did make it and got to the door in the fastest imaginable time i would be at least 40 tics slower than my fastest built time through the more conventional route. Not to mention I don't have the rocket launcher or as much health as I would by the normal route (although I do have more armor).

What's interesting is that in nightmare or -fast with the zombieman moving faster this trick may just be doable at a faster time, and in a nightmare run where the rocket jump is not practicle it would give an insane speed increase if it could be pulled off. I'm by no means saying it would be easy, it's taken me hours just to get the zombieman into a position in uv where it could be possible, I'd hate to think what would happen in nightmare or -fast.

I'm not going to attempt to complete the level using this trick as I've already done enough to show that even if it did come off it's not going to be faster, plus I've wasted enough hours doing this.

mlin said:

If the goal of a minimalist speedrun is to reach the ending screen as quickly as possible, then I fail to see how completing Map 32 is any more necessary than visiting a "secret area" on Map N. After all, this isn't a 100% run. Also, Map 32 has been optimized to the nearest second for many years now, and it doesn't look like 10"XX is possible.

Andrey included Map 32 in his run because Sedlo did. Back when Sedlo did his 30uv1617 run, Map 32 was considered as a good fill-up level. With a completely built run, those extra items and powerups are no longer unnecessary, thus eliminating the need to adhere to tradition. The first runner who breaks out of this saves an easy 13 seconds on his run.

I addressed this issue in detail giving in a previous post, please read the thread completely.

[Fredrik]

Do a built coop (and/or nightmare) run.

[Vile]

RamboBones said:

What's interesting is that in nightmare or -fast with the zombieman moving faster ...

Not trying to divert the topic too much, but I don't believe enemies outside of pinkies have increased walking speed in nightmare and -fast... just a bit confused by that.

Unless you count lost souls since they are constantly rushing you, but we won't get into that. :)

[VinceDSS]

The 1st instance of "thing" glide in mid air I can remember is in map23.
You glide along the barrels to reach the other side. And the barrels are way below the player. Neat trick by Ilya Britvich.

[RamboBones]

Vile said:

Not trying to divert the topic too much, but I don't believe enemies outside of pinkies have increased walking speed in nightmare and -fast... just a bit confused by that.

Unless you count lost souls since they are constantly rushing you, but we won't get into that. :)

I thought they did. Guess my memory sucks.

[Grazza]

VinceDSS said:

The 1st instance of "thing" glide in mid air I can remember is in map23.

That is more a thing run - you just use the line of barrels it as if it were a wall for what is effectively a wallrun. Of course, you can (and often do) start it off with a thing glide/wobble, but this isn't essential or fundamental to the trick working.

The map05 trick (and others such as e2m7) is based on building up momentum by pressing up against a "thing", and when the thing is removed, or you slide off the side of it, then you move as it you had had a run-up, even though you had been stationary the whole time. They are two separate effects, though they can often occur together.

Old thread here.

[Grazza]

Possible minor route improvement: only take the red key in map19, and then use a 32-unit glide to exit. I have just verified that this glide is possible (using cack_handed's slow movement method).

Exactly how much time that saves overall is not clear, but clearly the route is a bit shorter, though probably you lose a little time unless this glide is somehow possible at full speed. I'd guess that it should be possible with just a very brief slowdown for the critical gametic where you get through the gap. Edit: after more experimentation with this type of glide, I suspect there is a need for a greater slowdown than that, maybe necessarily costing a full second at least. But I'd still say it is worth it in this instance

My *guess* (based on no calculation or rigorous testing) is that it might make the built time a second shorter. Maybe two.

[cack_handed]

That is certainly a very doable glide - in fact I'd almost call it easy :-) I was practicing it the other day and after a few nomo runs I actually got it to work in normal play on only a second try: lv19-057.zip. But I was reluctant to mention it here as it seems it would take so many hours of work just to take one second off the built time. If anyone does want to try it I included some practice sessions in the zip as help/inspiration.

BTW I found an even better way to do this kind of glide than the slow-creep method - you can see the results in one of the practice lmps which has 20+ glides in it. It's difficult to describe, but you hold the (cheap optical) mouse a little above the mat and make gentle inch-long "brush stroke" movements forwards with it, keeping your wrist still and only moving your fingers. Very subtle and difficult, but amazingly effective once you get into the groove of it, but why it works I have no idea.

[Maverick]

Wicked.

[xit-vono]

Is it necessarily impossible to do the jump on map03 without touching the pistol guy first? How about if you get a midair boost from a bullet?

[Pirx]

Grazza said:

Exactly which version of prboom? (Full version number please.)

If you are using a current or recent version of prboom, then chances are the problem is your iwad - i.e. it is an old version or it has been modified in some way. What is its exact size in bytes? (Not kilobytes or megabytes, but bytes.)

i have this problem too, i can't play back the demo neither with prboom / glboom 2.4.6 nor with prboom-plus 2.2.6.25 as it desyncs just a few seconds after the start, the player runs into a zombie and then into the niche with the rocket launcher.

my doom2.wad is an original doom2 from 1994, size 14.824.716 bytes , date 29.08.1994, 19:30

so i got a doom2 wad from a friend, size 14.943.400 bytes, date 25.08.1994, 21:13, and guess what, it desyncs exactly at the same point.

this didn't happen with normal demos.

[Kristian Ronge]

You need version 1.9 of doom2.wad dated 01-02-95, size in bytes 14,604,584 and CRC-32 ec8725db

The versions you describe are both 1.666 (the legal version and the warez'd[? I think] version).
Update the legal 1.666 version to 1.9 in two steps ->
From 1.666 to 1.7a with this (or you could use this).
From 1.7a to 1.9 with this.

Hope this helps.

[Pirx]

Kristian Ronge said:

You need version 1.9 of doom2.wad dated 01-02-95, size in bytes 14,604,584 and CRC-32 ec8725db

The versions you describe are both 1.666 (the legal version and the warez'd[? I think] version).
Update the legal 1.666 version to 1.9 in two steps ->
From 1.666 to 1.7a with this (or you could use this).
From 1.7a to 1.9 with this.

Hope this helps.

it did help! thanks man.

although i know it's a built demo, i'm totally amazed. twice the speed of the normally recorded best run. evading the fire of two dozen SS dudes at 2% health, i wonder how long it took.

btw, why is this "ugly" look of the demo, as if recorded with a way too high sens, and shooting without even exactly facing the target?

[RamboBones]

Torr Samaho said:

btw, why is this "ugly" look of the demo, as if recorded with a way too high sens, and shooting without even exactly facing the target?

The instant large turns is neccessary for built for two reasons, one it allows for precise placement giving a higher time and secondly it just takes WAY too damn long to do a smooth turn. As for firing when not facing the target I actually am but only for one single frame and you eye may not notice that frame or it may not even be rendered if the graphics is lagging slightly.

And dodging all the SS dudes isn't that hard as they are pretty bad shots. In fact out of all the difficult things in this demo that level was probably one of the easiest, just that the ones that don't look hard actually are.

[Pirx]

yeah, i was guessing that. i haven't built own demos though (i screw up when i'm about to finish a demo, always ;) ). great work, thank you.

[cack_handed]

I found a BIG improvement for Map02 - could save 10 seconds :-)))

Nomo demo:- lv02m023.zip

[entryway]

ooooohhhhh

[RamboBones]

That my friend is a very nice trick indeed

[Kristian Ronge]

Looks like it's time to start over, Adrian! ;-D

Very nice find...

[Eugene]

I hope we'll see a speedrun in the incoming based on this really nice trick.

[myk]

Eugene said:
I hope we'll see a speedrun in the incoming based on this really nice trick.

Yeah, though it seems nasty; you get perforated by Shotgun guys and Zombiemen as you try to sqeeze through the crack, and then have to go through some rather crowded areas.

[Kristian Ronge]

Also, I believe all lv02 speedruns ever uploaded to COMPET-N (including Adam W's 0:40 record run), except Steffen's cheated one, include the blue armour pick-up. This route would need to be done without any armour at all.