What immerses you in a vanilla Doom map? What "sucks"?

[printz]

I started this thread in hope I get some inspiration for maps I'm trying to end. For me this is what I like playing in Doom works:

• monsters who are free to roam and open every door (like E1M3)
  
• actual fear of being chased by running monsters (like TNT MAP11)
  
• tense music and dark atmosphere for (pre)terminal levels (like AV MAP29, E2M8 of CLEIMOS for Doom 1)
  
• military-to-satanic design (like E2M4)
  
• emphasis on map design and puzzles, rather than scenery (like CLEIMOS for Doom 1)
  
• medium-large maps with few monsters, <50, that still pack a punch
  
• good use of zombiemen
  
• maps relying only on enviromental hazards and large monsters
  
• maps with more on them than just monsters to shoot. E3M7 was a nice try.
  
• terminal levels which are the longest and most difficult in their series
  
• having new monsters, without becoming a TC
  
• having new, menacing, no-joke bosses, without sacrificing others
  
• having the power of will of using cybs and spiders as minibosses
  
• crushing ceilings, simulating platform games
  
• innovative use of locked doors
  
• monster ghosts
  
• burning, "twitching" barrels under Doom I 1.666 and up
  

And what sucks:

• hopeless linear levels which reviewers claim as top-notch
  
• exotic detail, poor gameplay (I name AV map20, but that's my POV.... quite a few out-of-place monsters, especially the chaingunners, though, yet, stories CAN be written about trapped marines under Pharaoh Spiderdemon's pyramid
  
• overuse of warp-in traps
  
• political correctness: poorly placed telepads in deep acid pools. It's acid, you're not supposed to escape! You can save anyway.
  
• bored boss setups, usually offering the player 600+ cells and pinvisibility[EDIT: actually no, because these make the cybers tougher to defeat] and one or two cyberdemons on the wide plains
  
• ruined boss setups: arenas with 2 spiderdemons and 30 barons of hell ;D
  

See your thoughts......

[DooMAD]

printz said:

And what sucks:

• hopeless linear levels which reviewers claim as top-notch
  

Linearity isn't necessarily a bad thing, provided the journey is interesting. If it's just boring room after boring room, then of course you're going to get bored very quickly, but I've played plenty of linear maps with enough variation to keep the player's attention.

printz said:

• political correctness: poorly placed telepads in deep acid pools. It's acid, you're not supposed to escape! You can save anyway.

Not everyone uses saves. I don't bother with them unless it's a multiple level WAD. Besides, being able to survive a trap doesn't detract from the playing experience and the lost health could still cause you problems later on.

[myk]

DooMAD said:
Not everyone uses saves. I don't bother with them unless it's a multiple level WAD. Besides, being able to survive a trap doesn't detract from the playing experience and the lost health could still cause you problems later on.

Right, and there can be both types of places; some terminally deadly pits and some potentially harmful ones, anyway, depending on what makes the map flow better at the designer's discretion. And the exit doesn't have to be a teleporter, it can be a small archway on the other end, a secret door, or partially hidden stairs, for example.

[printz]

DooMAD said:

Not everyone uses saves. I don't bother with them unless it's a multiple level WAD. Besides, being able to survive a trap doesn't detract from the playing experience and the lost health could still cause you problems later on.

That was my POV :) Dead-end pits can be marked with "Poison" :D (IMO, only teleport pads in the reactor look silly, arches or emergency elevators don't... myk posted fast)

[Jehar]

The biggest thing that comes to mind is poor feedback on switches... let the player know why he pulled this switch and exactly what it did. There are creative ways to get this information across, just as long as you do it.

Hexen is a posterchild for bad switch feedback.

[Siggi]

printz said:

• exotic detail, poor gameplay (I name AV map20, but that's my POV.... quite a few out-of-place monsters, especially the chaingunners, though, yet, stories CAN be written about trapped marines under Pharaoh Spiderdemon's pyramid

I agree with this point, except for the example. AV 20 is a good looking map, but there is nothing wrong with it's gameplay. I think a more suiting example would be something like Sapphire.

[Belial]

printz said:

• overuse of warp-in traps
  

You can never overuse those.

[printz]

dutch devil said:

That would be pretty stupid having to cheat to beat an map.

What about a no-clipping powerup and a special "steel" type wall which can never be walked through so you don't go straight for the exit?

Psycho Siggi said:

I agree with this point, except for the example. AV 20 is a good looking map, but there is nothing wrong with it's gameplay.

Okay, maybe I was a bit too harsh and biased. But since that was level 20, like 2/3 of a game, I was a little bored at that moment. Then as well I had played other "ancient crypt" maps with suspensed gameplay, so I was used to it.

If I could name other maps with poor gameplay, they'd still be maps liked by the public. I'm not gonna flame.

[Kaiser]

What defines linearity in a game/map is that the game/map can only be played one way without being able to do something different.

[Koko Ricky]

What works:

- Interesting tricks done with the original engine that allow for eye-popping visuals.
- A nice balance between cramped and open spaces, allowing for diverse gameplay and fights.
- Levels that try to look like actual constructs as opposed to random labyrinths, without seeming corny or overdone.
- Excessively satanic, organic or "dark" level themes. Military themes are overdone in my opinion, but I'm sure many feel the opposite.
- Lots of surprises, which can include level transformations, enemy ambushes, unexpected traps, etc.
- Really atmospheric lighting. You'd be surprised how much of a difference well placed light and shadow can make.

What doesn't work:

- Stupid joke wads that rip sprites from other game, use out of place, irritating sounds and have horrible at best map design.
- Major texture fuck-ups, which include illogical use of textures, glaring mis-aligntments, and extremely repetitive use of the same texture or couple of textures.
- Ambitious TC's or partial conversions that unfortunately have shoddy graphics from amatuer artists.
- Jerks who don't understand how to find a good balance between monster count and ammo/power-up dispersion. An otherwsie decent map can be ruined by too many monsters and not nearly enough ammo, or vice versa.
- Platform jumping, something that doesn't belong in Doom in my opinion.

printz said:

What about a no-clipping powerup and a special "steel" type wall which can never be walked through so you don't go straight for the exit?

It'd probably be easier if the power-up was designed to go through specific walls. Like, maybe it's a good ways away from the wall or walls you can clip through, so you have to go through a fair amount of twists and turns to get to the wall, hopefully before the power-up runs out.

[Raikoh_Minamoto]

The good:

• Levels whose combat can change pace extremely quickly.
  
• Levels which reward higher difficulties (like, on UV or Nightmare, you might get a secret room with a BFG inside once you complete an episode).
  
• New monsters with creative design in all respects (that is, in terms of gameplay, graphics, and sounds).
  
• Levels which use the unknown to inspire fear rather than surprises to inspire shock.
  

The bad:

• Levels that use the same monster over and over (F@!#ING SPECTRES!)
  
• WADs whose "new" monsters are just recolors of old ones with tweaked stats.
  
• Self-proclaimed "scary" levels which use surprises, and inspire no true fear whatsoever. Surprises inspire shock, not fear. There is a difference.
  

[myk]

Raikoh_Minamoto said:

• WADs whose "new" monsters are just recolors of old ones with tweaked stats.
  

I guess you refrain from using Hell knights them... Though I agree the recolors are bad if they don't look decent and don't work right (in DOOM II the Hell knight is just a recolor but since its the same "species" as the Baron of hell it works fine). I agree variant zombies or gun wielding monsters should (for example) carry the right weapons; making a variant Spiderdemon with gray legs that shoots plasma is ugly, if it still has a chaingun on it.

• Self-proclaimed "scary" levels which use surprises, and inspire no true fear whatsoever. Surprises inspire shock, not fear. There is a difference.
  

That depends; during the period before any surprises fear can be present if the surprises are hinted yet not clear. Still, fear itself is a rather poor element in DOOM, because fear is based on impotence or near impotence, and that'll lead to death in the game.

[Hobbs]

Play Alien Vendetta and play, oh, Earth.wad

All the good things they do between the two of them (they are quite different) is what immerses me.

Play, oh, sapphire. Thats what sucks. Or for a vanilla map, play uh, well when this problem occurs in vanilla it knows the map is crap and just VPOs :D