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Rubilacxe

THE Hardest Doom 2 Megawad ever

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Usually when that phrase is uttered, Hell Revealed and its sequel come to mind, right? I've been a member here for 6 years, and while my memory isn't my forte, I seem to remember people saying (for the most part) these are the hardest megawads out there.

However, I don't frequent this site as much as I used to. So tell me, am I remembering correctly? Are these 2 the hardest? Or has something new come along to overthrow the title?

If there IS a megawad harder than those two, I would be very interested in checking it out, provided it meets these requirements.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

1. Standard Megawad setup...replaces all 32 levels.
2. Contains no game-changing "extras"...meaning NO new monsters or weapons (coding wise OR graphically)...the megawad should use standard weapons and monsters from Doom 2 and should be able to work with Vanilla Doom (meaning, does not utilize special ZDOOM, EDGE, etc. features...obviously a source port is required to run Doom but it should not be required for the megawad).
3. New Music is fine...no new sounds. New textures/ceilings/etc. are fine...no new sprites/objects (lamps, hanging bodies, the like).
4. Considered at least "beatable" and at most "not unbeatable", even on fresh respawns (starting any level on the megawad with only a pistol), on the Ultra-Violence difficulty.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Can anyone point me in the right direction? Or was my previous assumption correct (Hell Revealed 1 and 2 being the kings of death)? I know this is an opinion based question, but theres usually a consensus with these things.

PS: I've picked up Immoral Conduct again...if said megawad is compatable with that, even better.

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Scythe 2 is also pretty hard towards the end. The difficulty improves very nicely! :) The megawad all in all is one of my all-time favourites in more than 10 years of dooming... :D

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Hell Revealed 2... or was it... aww crap it's that hard one... can someone help me out here? It was that one that seriously took a year to complete (over-exaggeration). One of the later levels put you on a mountain where you had to ascend it kill a ton of monsters and once you got to the top, you had to descend down into the mountain where there was a bunch of aracnotrons and a mastermind. (no big whoop, because you already killed about 5 or 6 cyberdemons).

Anyone remember that one? I can't believe I forgot the name.

Edit: although it doesn't fulfill the last requirement on the above list :(.

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That was indeed Hell Revealed 2, map29 to be exact. I can think of at least one map that's more difficult than what's contained in any megawad, though.

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Vile said:
I can think of at least one map that's more difficult than what's contained in any megawad, though.

You mean the second of those two X-treme maps Erik released?

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myk said:

You mean the second of those two X-treme maps Erik released?


Indeed. I should look at that one again now. I noticed that scythe2 map27 max hasn't been recorded yet either... strange.

EAXT map02 looks more reasonable now. There's a couple parts where life is riding on luck but I'm finding ways to handle each situation.

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Rubilacxe said:

4. Considered at least "beatable" and at most "not unbeatable", even on fresh respawns (starting any level on the megawad with only a pistol), on the Ultra-Violence difficulty.

If I understand you right, and you want to exclude any wads with maps where it is impossible to reach the exit playing on UV with the -respawn parameter, then that rules out Hell Revealed due to map07.

Vile said:

I noticed that scythe2 map27 max hasn't been recorded yet either... strange.

Anima has done this one: s2272454.zip

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Vile said:
There's a couple parts where life is riding on luck but I'm finding ways to handle each situation.

/me crosses fingers

Grazza said:
If I understand you right, and you want to exclude any wads with maps where it is impossible to reach the exit playing on UV with the -respawn parameter, then that rules out Hell Revealed due to map07.

It seems that by "fresh respawns" he means each level "from scratch" (as opposed to using saves, cheats, empowerment addons, or TAS stuff), not (necessarily) respawning monsters.

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Ah, probably. I was reading those as two separate pieces of information, as I don't recall a pistol start being described as a "respawn" previously.

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Vile said:

That was indeed Hell Revealed 2, map29 to be exact. I can think of at least one map that's more difficult than what's contained in any megawad, though.


And it is... ?

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In response to the "fresh respawn" debate...even if you begin the level with a pistol and 50 bullets, you still can reach the exit without dying...you may have low or no ammo and little health, but it is still possible (even without the aid of other human players) to complete the level.

The megawad should be completed "legitly" (that is...without using cheats and, to a lesser extent, without the aid of other human players).

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Vile said:

That was indeed Hell Revealed 2, map29 to be exact. I can think of at least one map that's more difficult than what's contained in any megawad, though.

Damn, I sure do wish that Erik would revamp the second map in the x-treme series (in terms of gameplay). That map is just begging to become a slaughter map...

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Make slige generate 30 levels for dOom 2, enable big weapons, big monsters and big monsters extra and hope you get a megawad that's both the hardest AND accessible. This post was predictable.

EDIT: I could say the same, HR, HR2, AV or others. But HR was only hard because of MAP13: "Last look at Eden", MAP24: "Post Mortem" and a few others; the rest were merely tricky. AV was merely a monster knockout, tons of monsters to splatter but little thinking (unless some Nightmare! would be involved) --- HR did demand some thinking. HR2 I only played till some point, when I got kinda bored (repetitive and, to me, unpromising), so no comment. Surely there are others - e.g.: Kama Sutra, but I haven't played them, so I won't comment.

In conclusion, for me, difficult megawads are those which demand the player to think and plan paths. HR Maps 13 & 24 (as I have experienced) are examples for it, as well as Doom on Nightmare!.

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Good gravy, I tried Hell Revealed 2 (finally) and got my ass kicked right from the beginning. It's a lot harder than Alien Vendetta, within the first two levels.

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GoatLord said:

Good gravy, I tried Hell Revealed 2 (finally) and got my ass kicked right from the beginning. It's a lot harder than Alien Vendetta, within the first two levels.


Some levels you need another person with you, just because it's way to hard otherwise. Some people I hear can do it by themselves, but unless you cheat it's hard to do it by yourself.

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Antidote said:

Some levels you need another person with you, just because it's way to hard otherwise. Some people I hear can do it by themselves, but unless you cheat it's hard to do it by yourself.

Must be all those angled crates everywhere.

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printz said:
In conclusion, for me, difficult megawads are those which demand the player to think and plan paths.

Saying AV is not "difficult" because its fights are generally not as dependent on tactics as the ones on some of HR's maps sounds pretty ridiculous.

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Antidote said:

What?


Some people were complaining in the Austerity thread that putting in angled crates made it too easy to get hung up and made it unfairly hard.

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Dr. Zin said:

Some people were complaining in the Austerity thread that putting in angled crates made it too easy to get hung up and made it unfairly hard.


Again, what?

What does angled crates have to do with map29 of Hell Revealed? Yes, I was the one complaining about angled crates, but Map29 is a hell-themed level.

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myk said:

Saying AV is not "difficult" because its fights are generally not as dependent on tactics as the ones on some of HR's maps sounds pretty ridiculous.

Yeah but it's much harder when there's no obvious help nearby and you have to plan your rushes and hideouts, than when you see 200 rockets and get to fight 100 cacodemons with them.

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printz said:
Yeah but it's much harder when there's no obvious help nearby and you have to plan your rushes and hideouts, than when you see 200 rockets and get to fight 100 cacodemons with them.

That's not an accurate distinction between the two wads. AV has various sections that are pretty deadly in ways that are different from HR's. Especially in confining the player against tough opponents in awkward positions, such as duels against Cyberdemons, nasty Archvile attacks, or tricky Chaingun dudes.

I can see how one could lose perspective of AV's difficulty and not of HR's more plan oriented play by using save games, though, since the challenges in AV may require more circumstancial dexterity than tactics on various occasions (though this is obviously relative). But that's part of why levels are best played "from scratch" (or in sequence, but that's hard on these wads... neither has been completed all the way; but the episodes should be more possible).

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The answer to "what is the hardest megawad" is indeed a tough question, as many of you have pointed out. Is it hard based on monster placement? Or puzzle solving? Or health/ammo frequency? There are many answers to the question.

(I would also like to retract my previous statement about fresh-respawns...since I am saving as I go, I no longer care if a level was designed to be possible starting with just a pistol).

The difficulty of the levels based upon puzzle solving (how the fuck do I get to that switch?) is less important to me. I'm more interested in "holy shit, theres 20 zombies of various types in one room and an Arch-Vile behind all of them". I'm refering to an early level of Alien Vendetta...its at the exit of level...3? 4? Anyway, Very nice.

I'm liking AV for several reasons:
-Good surprizing monster traps (sectors opening doors behind me filled with Reverants or Barons)
-Throwing several hard enemies into one spot, forcing me to use several tactics at once to killing them all.
-The levels are beautiful.
-Getting through a level requires more thought than your run-of-the-mill ID Software Doom level, but its still as traditional as Doom can be (find keys, find exit).

Eitherway, there seems to be a general consensus that AV, HR, and HR 2 are quite difficult. And so far, I'm very much in agreeance. So I'm going through those at the moment. After I complete AV, I move to HR and then finally HR 2.

If it helps at all, I'm not playing with traditional Doom....I'm using EDGE Immoral Conduct (a mod I've always loved). This makes it all the more fun. Any level sets besides those 3 that work well with IC would also be great.

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IMO the two Hell Revealed megawads are the hardest ones.

Wads like Alien Vendetta or KamaSutra were clearly easier than the 2 formers, 'cause I've completed twice more AV or KS levels from pistol start in UV than in HR (didn't get deep into HR2 yet but it seems even harder).

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