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Maes

Your best/more efficient DooM kills ever?

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Some d00d on these forums says "A shell, an imp".

Although this is bragable if you can do consistently, there were a few other memorable ammo-efficient kills that can be done pretty consistently, if the map allows for it:

  • Two shells, Three imps, as per my sig (with SSG).
  • Two Shells, an Imp and a Pinky.
  • Two Shells, 5+ zombies or sergeants.
  • A shell, a chaingunner ;-)
Some more exceptional ones:
  • Two berserk punches, one caco (very rare, only did it once or twice
  • Five berserk punches, a Hell Knight
  • A single rocket, 30+ zombies (possible on the first map of "The Archives are Doomed", where there are all those zombies packed together and overlapping
Well, go on :-)

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5 berserk punches for an arachnotron (fortunately, it never bothered to fire at me)
18 berserk punches for a spiderdemon (it helps to get it preoccupied first)
infighting (really, what's more efficient than getting something else to do the dirty work for you?)

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18 berserk punches for a spiderdemon (it helps to get it preoccupied first)
infighting (really, what's more efficient than getting something else to do the dirty work for you?)

Heh, more so 1 infighting Imp, 1 Spiderdemon.

Also:

1 shell, 1 Lost soul
1 shell, 1 frag

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One SSG blast, 1 gibbed Zombieman.
It only happens to me once with an old version of Zdoom and I don't know if it was possible in vanilla Doom too.
It's also fun to gib Zombiemans with the Plasmarifle, but they have to been weakend before with the pistol for example.

Also; 2 Bfg blasts, 1 Cyberdemon.
Maybe it was also already weakened, but i don't think so.

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myk said:

Heh, more so 1 infighting Imp, 1 Spiderdemon.

Also:

1 shell, 1 Lost soul
1 shell, 1 frag


Ehm...maybe I should specify best kills on undamaged monsters (both a lost soul and a marine have 100 HP, so you normally can't kill them with one shell).

Lost souls are bad bitches coz there's nothing that quite takes them with a single shot (well, a SSG blast could in theory take out two of those damn bitches, and is a one-shot kill in DM unless your aim sucks, but that's two shells).

Then...1 BFG blast, a spiderdemon. OK, I know that's within specs, but it's very hard to make it happen in practice, as is the two-hit Cybie kill. I only achieved this once, and it was on vanilla doom looooong ago.

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I chainsawed a wounded zombieman in just the right place, so he gibbed and it actually looked like the chainsaw had cut through him

Running right up to weak enemies and giving them the SSG, so you just get a split-second glimpse of the blood and thier first death frame, and then imagining your own death sequence from that, like a horror film where you only see the beginning of something gory and the rest is in your imagination

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One rocket can also kill a lost soul at least, but that's usually not a wise to try unless you're feeling lucky.

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Maes said:
Ehm...maybe I should specify best kills on undamaged monsters (both a lost soul and a marine have 100 HP, so you normally can't kill them with one shell).

You should use the shotty more often; its maximum damage is 105 (15 per each of the 7 pellets).

Note that each pellet always inflicts the same amount of damage (they all either inflict 5, 10 or 15 each), so its not so hard to get 105 (not sure the chance, but we could look at the code, as I seem to remember being told DOOM uses a bell shaped probablity for damage).

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Real efficency comes from knowing exactly how many shots it should take to kill an enemy, and then finishing them off with bullets if it doesn't kill them.

Bullet marks on the walls = marks of shame. :P

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I've done some of the things you guys said, such as 2 BFG shots - Cyberdemon, 2 zerk punches - caco, 1 BFG - Mastermind, etc.

Most unique one however is..
1 reg shotgun shell, 1 seargent gibbed

Happened only once though

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Inferno said:
Happened only once though

Similar apparent events have been caught "on tape" (recorded in demos). What happens is that the zombie gets hit by something else that can gib it at the same time. Bullets do not inflict enough damage to gib anything in the game, and a Shotgun blast is simply seven bullets at once.

Deathbringer also described a similar event some posts earlier, but with a Chainsaw.

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I could have sworn that nothing else was in my line of sight when it happened, which shocked me.

It was on E4M5, still in the first room right before the first door, the seargent was on the left side by the wall. Not a barrel was set off, and I'm pretty sure the only thing that was left in the room was zombies.

To add to that, I even remember a seargent gibbing a zombieman! I dont know how on earth that's possible. Sadly, I can't recall the map I was on, or if it was Doom2.

My guess is that in each case, the gibbed zombie had very low health, and the bullet fired upon it was capable of doing it's maximum damage, potentially capable of gibbing the zombie. This is what I'm assuming, since in both scenario's the zombie did suffer damage from another scource.

In both cases, however, I was not using any ports, so it was just plain vanilla. Could this have anything to do with it? I'm very sorry that I don't have any screenshots to show you, it just didn't occur to me at the time :(

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It's possible that the cacodemon outside may have gibbed the zombie. Either that or a barrel went off and you didn't notice it.

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myk said:

You should use the shotty more often; its maximum damage is 105 (15 per each of the 7 pellets).

Note that each pellet always inflicts the same amount of damage (they all either inflict 5, 10 or 15 each), so its not so hard to get 105 (not sure the chance, but we could look at the code, as I seem to remember being told DOOM uses a bell shaped probablity for damage).


Hmm...if that's so, then the most probable is 10, and the other two are either extremely rare, or just never happen at least in vanilla : e.g. I can't recall seeing a zombie taking more than 2 hits to die (20 HP), or a sergeant dying in two hits, and never a lost soul dying in one hit. *checks SC* well the "RNG" is actually a 256-value table with scattered values, which *may* be gaussian (bell shaped).

A shotgun shot is implemented like 7 pistol shots, while the SSG strangely has its own "pistol shot" code inlined (efficiency?).
In any case, if you look at the code, each pellet in both the SSG and SG can have its own damage, so the minimum (35) and maximum damage (105) are both highly improbable. Since the RNG is highly deterministic, and the way to compute damage is even more restrictive (damage = 5*(P_Random ()%3+1); that is modulo of something already very deterministic), it should be possible to see if there is a sequence of the RNG giving totally wussified or totally maxed out SG or SSG.

Unless 7 consecutive RNG values have a modulo 3 of 2, it's just impossible to get 105 damage from the shottie.

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Inferno said:
In both cases, however, I was not using any ports, so it was just plain vanilla. Could this have anything to do with it?

Had it been another engine then perhaps a bug could have caused it. Gibbing is described here (which you can corroborate with the source code). A Zombieman, the weakest of all monsters, has 20 hit points, while a bullet inflicts a maximum of 15 hp of damage, and 1 minus 15 equals -14, or, with a fist or Chainsaw, 1 minus 20 equals -19. In either case it does not reach the required -21 to gib the Zombieman. The explanation must be something like what Ichor said; a fireball you didn't see clearly hit the Shotgun guy, as well as your attack, and caused the gibbing.

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There, I'm so sad I bothered extracting the modulos from the RNG to see how bullets and shotguns would behave:

These were obtained from the following C loop:

int i=0;
for (i=0;i<256;i++){
printf("%d, ",rndtable[i]%3);
}

trying to emulate the official damage formula, 5*(rndtable[i]%3+1).
The max damage of 15 occurs only when rndtable[i]%3=2. Since the rng is used sequentially, this is the actual order damage modulos appear.
Unless the RNG is used in "multithreaded" mode, this order cannot change, and the maximum sequence of 2's is only 5 elements long. From my understanding of the SC, damage for each pellet, at least in the unmodified public source code, is computed individually, not globally. I don't know what would happen to source ports which *don't* follow the vanilla RNG or use other damage formulae though.

0, 2, 1, 1, 0, 1, 2, 2, 0, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0, 2, 0,
1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 0, 2, 2, 1, 0,
2, 2, 1, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 0, 2, 1,
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 0, 2, 1, 2,
0, 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
2, 1, 0, 0, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 1, 0, 0,
2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 0, 2, 0, 1, 0, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2,
1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0, 2, 1, 0, 2, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0,
2, 2, 0, 2, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 0, 1, 0, 2,
0, 2, 0, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0,
0, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 2, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1,
2, 0, 1, 0, 2, 2, 1, 2, 0, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,
2, 0, 0, 2, 1, 1, 0, 2, 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 2,
1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 2, 1, 0, 2, 2, 0,
2, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0, 2, 1, 2, 2,
2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1, 2, 0

If someone is even sadder and want to make some other statistical
mumbo-jumbo on this sequence (e.g. like which are all probable damage outcomes for a shotgun shot) be my guest :-p

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myk said:

The explanation must be something like what Ichor said; a fireball you didn't see clearly hit the Shotgun guy, as well as your attack, and caused the gibbing.


Yeah I'm probably wrong, it was a while ago this happened anyway. The numbers you gave me make perfect sense in that it's not possible for a bullet to gib anything. But jeeze, I really wish I took a screenshot!

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Maes said:
From my understanding of the SC, damage for each pellet, at least in the unmodified public source code, is computed individually, not globally.

Yes; my impression above about globality was actually from a comment on something else, which doesn't apply to bullets. The wiki gives the Shotgun's chances per amount of damage, plus a nice table on its use against the different monsters.

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myk said:

Yes; my impression above about globality was actually from a comment on something else, which doesn't apply to bullets. The wiki gives the Shotgun's chances per amount of damage, plus a nice table on its use against the different monsters.


Peace, bro. So at least someone was sadder than me and actually did the stat thingy :-p

I checked the tables for all weapons and saw the theoretical extremes...well actually the assumption that calls to p_random are sequential (which they aren't) can be rectified a little bit if every other random values is skipped (one is used for damage, the other for angle, as a minimum), so those statistics could be elaborated.

Interestingly enough, and much to the dismay of several fellow doomers, "A shell, an Imp" is not always possible :-(

And some extremes like 4 bullets for a zombie...well...they are extremely rare and go unnoticed. The mean values rounded down are more realistic and much more common.

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I once fought a cyberdemon with my bare fists, and came out on top.

Also on a semi-related note, I shot a bfg blast into at least 60 or so zombies, killed mostly all of them, and the rest died by the barrels that the BFG ignited.

Another: I once shot a bfg blast at cyberdemon that was SO 1337, that it crashed Doom. Meh.

Yeah I know I suck.

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Maes said:

Interestingly enough, and much to the dismay of several fellow doomers, "A shell, an Imp" is not always possible :-(


Well, it may not always be possible with single imps, but in a group it mostly works fine.
If an Imp happens to survive a single shotgun shot, then the next one will take it down plus another one of them.
If the second shot also only kills one of them, there's always a third shot etc... So in the end it almost always results in: a shell, an Imp :)

Btw, it's dead easy to kill a Spiderdemon with only one BFG blast!
Just charge the gun while you run towards it, if the shot comes out when you're right in front of the Mastermind, it's most likely toast!

Edit:
One more thing that comes to my mind is killing a demon with 2 single shotgun shots.
It doesn't sound spectacular, but it's not easy to do IMO.
Slightly related to this;
it seems that the shotgun inflicts more damage while you're in movement. I can almost always kill a demon with two shotgun blast when I'm running while shooting.
Is this just my imagination or is there indeed something in the source, that could cause this?

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Vader said:
Btw, it's dead easy to kill a Spiderdemon with only one BFG blast!
Just charge the gun while you run towards it, if the shot comes out when you're right in front of the Mastermind, it's most likely toast!

I just tried it a few times in E3M8 and couldn't get it to happen (not that it can't). You might be accustomed to an engine that corrects this (likely ZDoom, as Belial pointed out).

it seems that the shotgun inflicts more damage while you're in movement. I can almost always kill a demon with two shotgun blast when I'm running while shooting.
Is this just my imagination or is there indeed something in the source, that could cause this?

Well, there's the theory of swingshots, though since movement comes into play as a factor it is hard to determine whether it's just a myth. But various people have felt it independently, and there's the experimentation I linked, so there might be something to it.

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myk said:

I just tried it a few times in E3M8 and couldn't get it to happen (not that it can't). You might be accustomed to an engine that corrects this (likely ZDoom, as Belial pointed out).


ok, that explains a lot, and yes I'm mostly using Zdoom.

myk said:

Well, there's the theory of swingshots, though since movement comes into play as a factor it is hard to determine whether it's just a myth. But various people have felt it independently, and there's the experimentation I linked, so there might be something to it.


Heh, I already thought it was just my fantasy, but occasionally there're other people who experianced/believe in this as well.
Someone really should do further testing on this issue :D

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