Freedoom + Monster Resource Wad ?

[fargo]

The only problem, IMO, with the current Freedoom is monsters. So, what about having some monsters from The Monster Resource Wad in freedoom iwad?

[myk]

Those monsters are based off of copyrighted material owned by id Software and other companies, so that's impossible. (Freedoom exists precisely to create IWADs that are independent of such copyright restrictions).

Or if you mean the functionality of these monsters (but not the graphics), there are two problems: a) the idea is to create an IWAD compatible with existing DOOM addons, and this would affect the addons, and b) the monsters use ZDoom stuff, and Freedoom is compatible with the GPLed Boom (so you won't see any ZDoom specific things in Freedoom unless they're optional).

[fargo]

Yah, I meant graphics of the monsters, not their behavior. I thought the ones used in the monster resource wad were not copyrighted.

Ok, what about other wads that use their own monsters' graphics? There are lots of good wads out there. We can ask for permission to use some graphics in Freedoom from those wads' authors.

[lupinx-Kassman]

If the graphics aren't modified doom monsters (For example a red imp would not be allowed, as opposed to an octopus or something) then yeah, you can put those in a freedoom wad. More preferably a Pwad for Freedoom not the Iwad itself.

[fargo]

I'm suggesting to the freedoom team to do this and integrate graphics into the iwad. The reason for this suggestion is to push the development forward. After all these years, the project is still at version 0.5 with many monsters carrying blackboards saying graphics has not been completed yet.

[CODOR]

This isn't the first time someone's had the idea of mixing existing resources with the Freedoom iwad...

[leileilol]

lupinx-Kassman said:

If the graphics aren't modified doom monsters (For example a red imp would not be allowed, as opposed to an octopus or something) then yeah, you can put those in a freedoom wad.

No, you can't.

All monster graphics in the wad aren't entirely original.

[fargo]

CODOR said:

This isn't the first time someone's had the idea of mixing existing resources with the Freedoom iwad...

What I'm writing about here is not similar to what you referred to. I'm after mixing totally free and original monsters' graphics with Freedoom. The idea is only to push Freedoom development little bit forward, not to contradict the original idea of being open source and not to bring some legal concerns.

I think we, the members of community who support Freedoom, can achieve this as many have already created monsters for their IWADs for free and would welcome helping an open source project.

[myk]

They've already done that when they could (some of the included monsters came from or used to come from existing addons). But fully free monsters are very rare (most are at least partially based on something from a game), often suck, or are otherwise not fitting as replacements of the existing ones (because each monster is supposed to work like the ones in the game but look different; same attacks, movements, and abilities, but different looks).

[fraggle]

Sorry, but the entire point of Freedoom is to be a totally Free IWAD. If Freedoom were to include modified versions of original Doom monsters, it would defeat the purpose of the project.

If you want to make your own version of Freedoom which includes modified versions of original monsters, you are of course free to do so (although you might then fall foul of Id's copyright).

[fargo]

fraggle said:

Sorry, but the entire point of Freedoom is to be a totally Free IWAD. If Freedoom were to include modified versions of original Doom monsters, it would defeat the purpose of the project.

O_o I know this! Please read my posts. The whole thread is about finding totally free graphics and include them in Freedoom. This would not contradict any law I assume!

What we need in here is suggestions. The members can suggest some WADs which have their own monsters graphics, not copied from the original and modified. Then, the authors of these graphics will de asked for permission to include their work in Freedoom. I hope it is clear now.

I suggested "The Monster Resource Wad" but it turned to be illegal. So, I may suggest BatmanDoom WAD! Yes, maybe the monsters in there cannot fit, but the wad has some original graphics which can be altered to satisfy our need.

[leileilol]

Content scavenging is stupid because you don't make it, you steal.

In OpenArena's early stages, I was fed so many suggestions to take Polycount's player and weapon models to make a game with and use LvL levels, and I repeatedly declined. A year later of effort, and look where we are!

[fargo]

leileilol said:

Content scavenging is stupid because you don't make it, you steal.

What is wrong with people in here?! I have never talked about stealing or content scavenging! All what I have been talking about can be summarized in the following:

1) Find good FREE graphics
2) Ask the author to reuse his/her graphics in Freedoom
3) If permission granted, use them, otherwise look some where else!

What is wrong with this scenario?!

[Grazza]

Because a lot of freely available graphics were not in fact made from scratch.

Unless you have the author's actual assurance that he made the graphics completely from scratch (both in terms of images and concept), then you can't really be sure. A mere statement that "yes, you can use it" isn't the same thing.

And because an assemblage of random graphics from here and there (even if certifiably free and created from scratch) are unlikely to work well together. I mean, they might in some cases, but the chances of being able to produce a large part of the necessary resources in this way might not be too great.

[fargo]

If no artists are working on its graphics, then how can freedoom be advanced?!

Is it a matter of money? No enough donations may be? Or is it because of developers lost interest? Maybe they don't have time for the project and no new comers are joining? I'm not sure. It is sad to see such a good opensource project dieing :(

[fraggle]

fargo said:

O_o I know this! Please read my posts. The whole thread is about finding totally free graphics and include them in Freedoom. This would not contradict any law I assume!

What we need in here is suggestions. The members can suggest some WADs which have their own monsters graphics, not copied from the original and modified. Then, the authors of these graphics will de asked for permission to include their work in Freedoom. I hope it is clear now.

I suggested "The Monster Resource Wad" but it turned to be illegal. So, I may suggest BatmanDoom WAD! Yes, maybe the monsters in there cannot fit, but the wad has some original graphics which can be altered to satisfy our need.

This would be acceptable, but proper permissions need to be acquired from the authors to reuse the graphics.

Another valid point which you've brought up is that the monsters from Batman Doom don't really fit. I think it's counterproductive to do this: having a bunch of sprites that conflict with the rest of the WAD isn't really any better than having a box saying "graphic not done yet!" IMO. Infact, I'd say that having conflicting sprites is worse than having ones than having none at all: potential contributors who see a mishmash of conflicting sprites that don't fit together would get a bad opinion of Freedoom and be deterred from contributing (to an extent, I think bad quality graphics already deters a lot of people from helping out). When the project originally started, there were plans to use the POVDoom sprites as substitutes for the monsters until better ones were found; in the end, I didn't include them for this very reason.

In summary: using 100% original sprites from existing PWADs with permission is perfectly okay, as long as the sprites fit in to what is currently in Freedoom.

[jute]

fraggle said:

In summary: using 100% original sprites from existing PWADs with permission is perfectly okay, as long as the sprites fit in to what is currently in Freedoom.

And I would imagine that these have all been discovered by now.

[Strife]

These guys have a point, methinks. Until some sprites are created that have the same look and feel as the rest of the game, the floating "Graphic Not Done" boxes are okay. In my opinion (as small as it is), it's better than having poorly drawn sprites because it makes it more apparent to the user that the sprite needs to be replaced.

Although I do think the boxes are a little small for some of the monsters, like the Cyberdemon... Perhaps they could be resized so that they are easier to pick out from far distances?

[fargo]

What about robotical monsters? I think they would be easier to draw! What do you think?

[Jon]

fargo said:

What about robotical monsters? I think they would be easier to draw! What do you think?

It's worth a go. We currently have a need for a spider mastermind, a cyber (but fredrik had a WIP cyber at one point) an archvile (but infurnus said at some point that he would do that one) and a pain elemental.

I think the spider mastermind or the pain elemental are good candidates. Why not have a go at a mock-up or a proof and see what you come up with?

[Csonicgo]

Infurnus isn't coming back; you can scrap the Arch-vile hopes. :(

[fargo]

Jon said:

It's worth a go. We currently have a need for a spider mastermind, a cyber (but fredrik had a WIP cyber at one point) an archvile (but infurnus said at some point that he would do that one) and a pain elemental.

I think the spider mastermind or the pain elemental are good candidates. Why not have a go at a mock-up or a proof and see what you come up with?

Unfortunately, I'm not an artist. I just gave a suggestion hopping for someone to adopt it.