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kristus

The same old source port argument

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Well. From the users I can't see any difference between the multiplayer scene and the single player scene.

People seem to build some silly fan-boy loyalty to their port of choice and stick to it, and the hell with every else.

Most Zdoom users use Zdoom and only Zdoom, (or it's babies, like GZdoom and whatnot)

Most Legacy users seem to be the same.
Same with most of them actually.

How many times haven't we seen people say something like "Oh it's not for <whatever port>, I won't play it then."

If you look at the Zdaemon forum, you can find threads where people talk about how Skulltag isn't acting as oldschool as Zdaemon for instance, even if they are both from Zdoom. And many Skulltag players seem to have some sort of inferiority complex towards Zdaemon so they dish out some shit there too.

Would anyone mention Vavoom, there's 5 people there in an instant to comment on how horrible Vavoom is.

Risen3d people talk about their port like it was made by God, and every other port is infinitely inferior.

Then there's the people that claim they're "Oldschool doomers" even if most of these people are relatively new, and most of them even started out in Zdoom forums etc.

It's everywhere. People are full of shit and themselves.

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AlexMax said:
Notice how you don't see nearly this amount of bad sentiment between ports of later games such as QuakeWorld, where the netcode is standardized and the source is GPL, where players from multiple ports can coexist on the same server.

That is not directly related to them being for MultiPlayer purposes, though (which is what he implied). I'm sure that if ZDoom and JDoom were closed sourced a similar rift would form.

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myk said:

I'm sure that if ZDoom and JDoom were closed sourced a similar rift would form.


Why? Neither engine can run each other's maps. What would it matter if the source were closed?


I'm fully aware that there used to be intense rivalries between singleplayer ports, but from what I've seen it's died down a lot. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to have shifted to simply prefering a certain port instead of actively bashing the "competition" at every possible opportunity. And I certainly don't remember anybody doing something as stupid as filtering out the name of another port in their forums.

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kristus said:

Most Zdoom users use Zdoom and only Zdoom, (or it's babies, like GZdoom and whatnot)



Is it really that surprising?

I think most players will always prefer the port they are most comfortable with. Say what you want but the various single player ports handle quite differently so switching to another engine may not be convenient for one's playing fun.

As for ZDoom in particular, it's a fact that with ZDoom you will rarely encounter maps that require something else. Sure, for the occasional map that requires another source port you have to switch but last year there was precisely one release that doesn't work with (G)ZDoom I considered worth playing. Too bad that my computer and Legacy seem to hate each other so I had to pass...

[/B][/QUOTE]

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I find that more an example of the problem, rather than a explanation for the reason.

The fact that most Zdoom users refuse to change to any other engine for the playing of a wad sort of "bullies" other people into using Zdoom just so people will play their wad.
People are even making their wads "Zdoom only" without them even requiring any special Zdoom features. Which in turn makes other people have to use Zdoom to play just regular wads.

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kristus said:

The fact that most Zdoom users refuse to change to any other engine for the playing of a wad sort of "bullies" other people into using Zdoom just so people will play their wad.


That's nonsense. Everybody knows that ZDoom is perfectly capable of handling Boom and Vanilla levels so why should anyone feel 'bullied'?

I rather think that when reading threads like this one some people might feel bullied to map for the lowest common denominator in order to get the widest possible audience for their creation, which is restricting themselves to vanilla features.


People are even making their wads "Zdoom only" without them even requiring any special Zdoom features. Which in turn makes other people have to use Zdoom to play just regular wads.


What can you do about carelessness? Anyone releasing a map to the public should at least make sure that it works with all engines it's intended for. But how do you propose to enforce proper QA during map development? Of course this goes both ways. The same way people can accidentally use a specific port feature they can also exploit a specific vanilla bug so that the map doesn't work properly with some ports. The only remedy against such things is proper testing.

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I'm not talking about Boom, I'm talking about Eternity, Edge, Vavoom, Legacy, whatever else there is. Something Zdoom is not capable of handling.
Granted that Zdoom got the biggest following. But people who might want to use Eternity for instance is put off by it because of this big Zdoom following refusing to try anything but wads that will run in ZDoom.

And there's not just a matter of carelessness, Regular Boom wads can be by the author said "Zdoom only" w/o them actually having any required features of Zdoom. Almost makes me think some people think it's a promotional matter to call it "Zdoom only".

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kristus said:

I'm not talking about Boom, I'm talking about Eternity, Edge, Vavoom, Legacy, whatever else there is. Something Zdoom is not capable of handling.



So?

The problem is not that ZDoom users wouldn't use these ports (although strong exceptions can be made for Legacy and Vavoom - but that's not the issue here), it's that some people just *assume* that ZDoom users wouldn't use them.

In reality they don't get used because there's not enough content for them which would make using them worthwile. And as long as mappers just assume that the user base for these ports is too small they won't map for it. Unless someone breaks that circle it won't change.

Honestly, why should I use Eternity, for example? It's certainly the best of the rest but in what way do I profit from it now? There's precisely two specific maps for it out there if I am not mistaken. I have played both once but since then it has been collecting dust due to lack of content.

But without content the user base won't increase and this inevitably leads to discussions like this that makes some people think it's not worth bothering with mapping for these other ports.

And so the vicious circle starts again but there's still no maps. But please don't blame the users which are *not* as fixated on ZDoom as you make it appear. It is easy to accuse ZDoomers of being unwilling to use any other ports if the available stuff out there makes it that easy to ignore them this easily without fear of missing something. Blame the mappers who don't use these engines.

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david_a said:
Why? Neither engine can run each other's maps. What would it matter if the source were closed?

There would be more antipathy in their deveopment just like there is between ZDaemon's and Skulltag's, which would lead to similat tension between users and wad makers. It is not uncommon for the developers of the SP engines to get together over forums and whatnot to discuss differences and broad development schemes (such as new cross port formats), and even the ones with different licenses, that are otherwise providing their code, sometimes share code (you can see the Eternity team crediting the ZDoom developers for some stuff, for example, and in any case they can each see each other's work). All this gives developers, designers and players a community sense that in closed software forms mostly around the engine in question only.

For example, ZDoom stands a bit apart from PrBoom, Eternity and Chocolate Doom, but is still rather open to them since the attitude of its developer is more open and friendly to the GPL, even if the engine can't be fully free software. The rift between Skulltag and ZDaemon is much more pronounced given their developers don't share information or a community sense, and that eventually polarizes their user bases as well.

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Graf Zahl said:

The problem is not that ZDoom users wouldn't use these ports (although strong exceptions can be made for Legacy and Vavoom - but that's not the issue here)

This statement kills any chance of me taking you seriously in a port discussion.

Neways I'm with kristus here 100%

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kristus said:
And there's not just a matter of carelessness, Regular Boom wads can be by the author said "Zdoom only" w/o them actually having any required features of Zdoom. Almost makes me think some people think it's a promotional matter to call it "Zdoom only".

Mostly they just didn't bother to test with anything else, so technically they aren't regular Boom wads, except maybe by chance, as they may well have ZDoomisms. What's more, they might use only Doom features (likely being limitless as well), that otherwise suffer from ZDoomisms, Boomisms, or both. ZDoom (like Boom) came out offering certain features wad makers liked or anticipated at the right moment, and thus became rather popular (maybe more than Boom in the long run), and that's a matter of circumstance, for the most part.

Blaming ZDoom for Eternity's (or whatever's) lack of a following is not going to get you anywhere.

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Dude! I'm not blaming Zdoom for anything. It's a great Source port.

I'm blaming the people. For being pigheaded and engaging in fan-boyism.

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kristus said:
I'm blaming the people. For being pigheaded and engaging in fan-boyism.

But the anti-ZDoom-fanboy thing turns quickly into a form of fanboyism of its own.

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THe only reason the discussion got centered on Zdoom, were because Graf Zahl brought it there by focusing on only that from my post when he replied to it. If you actually read up on the posts you should be able to see what I am talking about quite easily.

Another reason that Zdoom were the port to get the focus were also because it's the one where this is most apparent. All ports have these kinds of fans, but Zdoom's are the most vocal once, and people who don't really care that much about choosing he ultimate port for them to use will mjore often than not be inclined to go with Zdoom for their projects merely because it'll grant their wad a larger audience. Because the majority of the DOOMERS (regardless of favored port) take one port and then hold it as some sort of holy grail and everything else is shit. So, instead of downloading whatever port needed to run the wad, they either bitch about how it's a pity the wad were made for "that shitty port", or they play it a bit and then moan about what a pity it were that it wasn't made for their favorit port.

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Really? How does me not dissing any mod because of it's choice in port, and the advocating for people to do the same make me a fanboy? What am I a fanboy of? Common sense?

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I would certainly hope that mappers don't base their work around which ports have the most users. I know I don't. To me, it makes more sense for mappers to use the port that provides the features they need. Hopefully that's the case for everyone.

As for players, it's inevitable that you're always going to get some idiot who refuses to use a certain port "BCUZ <Insert port here> IS BETTAHR!", but such people are easily ignored. Most people are smart enough to know that you need a drive full of different ports to play everything the community has to offer, because if you don't, you're missing out on some good WADs.

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I also agree with kristus here. I don't see what makes ZDoom so special, other than having a large following. If you want to compare features, I would go with GZDoom or Risen3D over ZDoom. Mappers can do more with those two ports than with ZDoom on any day. I see no worthwhile experience with ZDoom since GZDoom renders it obsolete with its additional 3D abilities and Risen3D flattens it with its amazing possibilities (if only more people could show what it could do...) Before anyone accuses me of being a GZDoom/Risen3D fanboy, just know that I use Doomsday and SkullTag instead of either of those. I would rather just have fun playing Doom the way I like it (3D models or SkullTag's additional weapons) instead of hearing about a bunch of great features that I'll never want to use.

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My biggest problem with ZDoom is that only about 5 people have put it to good use. If you're going to require a map use it, at least use it. Doom with cutscenes is annoying as fuck. As is Doom that babies you along by telling you what every switch you pull does. I don't want to use ZDoom or any other port without good reason. Things like Action Doom, The Island II and Neverhood are good examples of what ZDoom should be used for. I avoid port-specific maps for the most part because they're typically like Doom maps but more annoying.

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sargebaldy said:

My biggest problem with ZDoom is that only about 5 people have put it to good use. If you're going to require a map use it, at least use it. Doom with cutscenes is annoying as fuck. As is Doom that babies you along by telling you what every switch you pull does. I don't want to use ZDoom or any other port without good reason. Things like Action Doom, The Island II and Neverhood are good examples of what ZDoom should be used for. I avoid port-specific maps for the most part because they're typically like Doom maps but more annoying.


You have hit it right on the damn head. I am so sick of having to watch five unskippable minutes of Sarge and the General talking about some inane mission everytime the map is loaded.

Another pet peeve is when a mapper locks you into an area and you cannot leave until all of the monsters are killed. Its always either like three Hell Knights in a 192x192 area or seventy demons in some big open area. Don't try to compensate for inability to create an interesting fight by locking me in a room with a bunch of enemies.

Another common ZDoomism is teleporting in a grid (always a grid!) of enemies via a script when the player does something. At least use the old Doom method of having a monster holding area and then have them teleport through a couple of regular teleport spots. That looks a little organic, rather than a damn grid! Bonus points if the camera cuts away from the player to show the grid teleporting in, pauses for a second to allow the player to see whats against them, then switches back to the player view as the monsters wake up.

ZDoom is the biggest crutch for unimaginative or incompetent mappers right now. It is a shame, as there are some talented people who make some really interesting stuff using ZDoom.

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Since we're discussing the issue of "oldschool" here, how oldschool is Odamex going to be? Will it even limit the FPS ~35, will it be uncapped or will there be a toggleable option for classic and uncapped? EDGE is the only source port that I know of that runs at ~35 FPS, and frankly, that is one of the reasons it's my favorite port. It simply feels more like Doom, IMO.

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Snarboo said:

EDGE is the only source port that I know of that runs at ~35 FPS, and frankly, that is one of the reasons it's my favorite port. It simply feels more like Doom, IMO.

And PRBoom or Chocolate Doom don't run at 35 FPS? Interesting.

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I said:
...EDGE is the only source port that I know of that runs at ~35 FPS...

Emphasis mine. There's no point being rude. I haven't used Chocolate Doom before, so I wouldn't know what FPS it runs at. And it's been a long time since I tried PrBoom or PrBoom+, so I don't remember how fast it ran.

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Mostly it's just the hardware rendered ones that remove the fps limit, although ZDoom and PrBoom+ do so as well in software mode (albeit it is optional, or can be disabled, in both cases).

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fraggle said:

So why are you playing Doom? There are plenty of other multiplayer games out there. You say that "oldschool" is ridiculous, but you're playing a 13 year old game. What exactly do you expect?



A version of a 13 year old game that fixes the bugs which oldschoolers seem to consider essential parts of the game, maybe?

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