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TheLazenby

Toughest Doom level?

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Which level in a classic Doom game would you consider the toughest?

My choice is probably "Go 2 It" (level 32 from Plutonia Experiment)... just fucking insane. Actually, the difficulty of most of Plutonia is fucking insane, but maybe that's just me.

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Go 2 It is rather easy for a HR stylish level, though I don't know which of the IWAD levels would be the hardest. Probably something from Plutonia though...

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IMO E4M1 from Doom 1 is a good example of how to make a tough level. Even though it's not that difficult nowadays, the fact that there are no medikits on hard skills, and that monsters teleport wildly, not to mention the Baron death trap, shows exactly what the designer intended this level to be like. E4M2 also has a tough start.

I haven't finished Plutonia, and many levels were similar to each other, but at least one of them does win the hardest level award. Plutonia was meant to be tough from the start.

Contenders from Doom 2 are MAP22: the catacombs and MAP23: barrels o' fun. Played from scratch, MAP22 is a nightmare, it's probably unplayable. MAP23 can be finished, but requires a lot of planning for the player. Doom 2 maps were meant to be tougher than Doom 1, but more shallow and worse-looking.

Among TNT, the map that struck me was Central Processing (MAP20), being long and tricky. I've only finished TNT once, right on Ultra-Violence, so I'm not likely to remember much about its levels. Perhaps there are better maps too.

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From the classic DOOM games Go 2 IT is probably the hardest, among the first two levels of Thy Flesh Consumed. But they're pretty easy compared to HR, AV and the sort.

Those levels on nightmare are a whole new thing, though.

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Of the original levels, I'll agree on Go 2 It. ALthough I've beaten it, it was a hard map, and took a lot of strategy. The first couple E4 maps can also get hairy if you're not careful.

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First level in Thy Flesh Consumed is difficult if you don't know what your doing. The second level is pretty tough as well (at least the beginning).

The hardest, I must agree, would be Go 2 It. I've beaten it a few times from scratch, but it still seems hard in difficulty. Never tried it on nightmare, I dont think I want to.

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Ultimate DOOM
E4M6 is very hard, do something wrong and you're fucked.
E4M2
E4M1

DOOM 2:
The Catacombs
Barrels of Fun
Refueling Base can be a tricky map if you play it without any strategy

Master Levels:
In no particular order, Black Tower, The Express Elevator to Hell, Mephisto's Mausoleum, Manor, Traped in the Titan, Vesperas.

TNT:
I can't remember well, all levels have more or less the same dificult. The long maps I suppose (Map20, 21, 27, I may be missing one)

Plutonia:
I find Go 2 It, hard but not as much as, Caged, Map15 (I can't remember its name), Aztec, Well of Souls, The Odissey of Noises, The Tomb Stone (this one is probably the hardest for me), and many others.

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E4M1, if you let the Barons loose. With the ammo given, I don't know if it's even possible to beat them from an optimal shot:hit statistic perspective. I've done it with excessive amounts of save&load punching, and even then you have to be quick enough to hop on the rising walls and get out of the room before they start teleporting. It's at least remotely easier if you can bring them out into the main rooms.

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Vegeta said:

Barrels of Fun


A lot of people seem to rate that level as hard. I've always found it a pretty easy level. :/

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Lüt said:

E4M1, if you let the Barons loose. With the ammo given, I don't know if it's even possible to beat them from an optimal shot:hit statistic perspective.

There's plenty of ammo - are you not finding the rocket launcher perhaps? If you watch the compet-n Max on this map, you'll see that there is no need for punching, no waiting around for infighting (though some naturally occurs), and a surplus of ammo (lots of shotguns not picked up), and even some missed shots.

Anyway, as to the question, I'd say E4M6 or Pl23 perhaps. Pl32 seems intimidating only when you're new to slaughter maps. But in order to give a more meaningful answer, I'd want you to specify what you mean by hardness. Is it the difficulty of reaching the exit at all on UV? The difficulty associated with killing everything? Should NM difficulty be a factor (in which case tn08 and tn09 need to be considered)? How hard they are by the intended route (i.e. without trick shortcuts)? etc.

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Enjay said:

Vegeta said:
Barrels of Fun

A lot of people seem to rate that level as hard. I've always found it a pretty easy level. :/

Yeah I found that level easy, especially since the megasphere on the catwalk makes the second half of the level a cinch. IMO MAP29 is harder especially on NM, rivaled by E4M1 (the furthest I've gotten so far in NM).
I haven't played a lot of the Plutonia maps on UV yet, but I can tell that a lot of those maps are some of the hardest in an IWAD.

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Doom 2: TNT- Evilution Level 11, the Archvile Labrinth, with just a simple SSG is there and no other GOOD weapon like a plasma, and I'd probably say Ult. Doom (or 3 trilogy Doom): E3 M8, Dis- God that level is insane, a simple start and BAM! Merely surrounded by Barons and next room filled with Caco's, don't you think it was HARD ENOUGH tio try speeding through it!?

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Mithral_Demon said:

Doom 2: TNT- Evilution Level 11, the Archvile Labrinth, with just a simple SSG is there and no other GOOD weapon like a plasma, and I'd probably say Ult. Doom (or 3 trilogy Doom): E3 M8, Dis- God that level is insane, a simple start and BAM! Merely surrounded by Barons and next room filled with Caco's, don't you think it was HARD ENOUGH tio try speeding through it!?

I'm not sure what you're talking about...but it sounds like E2M9, the Fortress of Mystery. Either one, though, Dis or Fortress of Mystery, I found pretty easy.

Speaking of Dis, all the boss fights in Doom are quite easy. I always wished they had ramped up the difficulty a bit on those.

On topic, though, E4 is tough. E4M6 was probably the worst for me. I can't really comment on Final Doom since I haven't played it in ages.

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Why is everyone saying E4M1 is hard? Just get a shotgun and a rocket launcher and you will zip through no problem.

RoneKyakone said:

Speaking of Dis, all the boss fights in Doom are quite easy. I always wished they had ramped up the difficulty a bit on those.

I agree. They should have atleast made the Spider Mastermind invulnerable to the BFG or something.

But the real reason why id's bosses are so easy is because you run too fast. Think about it, can you run this fast in Halo or Counterstrike? You run way too fast, which makes it incredibly easy to dodge attacks, and of course they give the Spider Mastermind barely any health. IMO the boss difficulties should be judged by the enviornment. E2M8 and E3M8 are just big open arenas so the battles are no problem.

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Vegeta said:

Refueling Base can be a tricky map if you play it without any strategy

I agree on that, had the hardest time beating that level when I first started playing, but I learned to strategicly work the level, and came a bit easier.

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Made by ID Software...I'd say Doom 2 Levels 27-29 on Ultraviolence. They are each hard in their own right.

Otherwise, most of Plutonia still gives me a hard time.

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Funny, back in the day, I remember the most difficult level in TNT being the one where a certain key went on vacation and I didn't know better.

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Really!? You can just keep at it until one of the players reaches the exit. Not that hard. :-P (yeah, I know you meant COMPET-N rules which don't allow players to die and respawn)

Like Grazza and Belial have already hinted at, the difficulty of a map has to be discussed within a context of what the player (or in Belial's case players) is trying to achieve. For example, while TNT map 9 is unquestionably one of the hardest IWAD maps to do in NM (it's the only one without a COMPET-N NM recording), it isn't one of the hardest IWAD maps to do in e.g. UV -fast(because of all the health), and it's even pretty easy for UV max. If you think E1M6 or E1M7 are easy for UV max, try UV pacifist. And so on.

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Plutonia on -fast getting 100%. Tons of fun but whenever I play it, I always do something stupid that gets me killed.

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Lüt said:

E4M1, if you let the Barons loose. With the ammo given, I don't know if it's even possible to beat them from an optimal shot:hit statistic perspective. I've done it with excessive amounts of save&load punching, and even then you have to be quick enough to hop on the rising walls and get out of the room before they start teleporting. It's at least remotely easier if you can bring them out into the main rooms.

Kill the normal baron with 15 shotgun shells. Just save all 12 rockets for the big 4-baron encounter. As soon as you trigger the torch trap, run away into the 'dungeon' whence you got the red skull-key. Wait for all 4 barons to grab the grates, then shoot them with rockets. The splash damage will pay off, 12 rockets being enough for all 4 enemies.

People have picked E4M1 as a hard level, in relation to other Doom.wad levels, because in general Doom 1 is easy, since many people are well used to it, and level design is either lacking experience (E1-3) or rushed (E4).

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I was actually about to say "Bad Dream" (from The Master Levels) but it took me about five minutes to realize how painfully simple that level really is :-)

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Nuts is not part of any "classic Doom game" (see first post).

And again I have to say: in what context? Nuts is pretty easy -- much easier than many maps in Ultimate Doom, IMO -- for UV speed (just reaching the exit). On the other hand, getting 100% kills is extremely difficult (if not impossible), simply because there's not enough ammo to kill everything, even with a copious amount of infighting.

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Hmm, toughest doom level? I would have to say my first time ever playing map07 "Dead Simple" on nightmare is one of them! It took me a couple hours to beat. Other than that I would pick map 13 and 29 of Doom2. Now if your talking fan made levels, I would pick map 30 of Eternal DooM!!!

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