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Steeveeo

Beginnings of a new project....

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Hey all, starting a new project for Doom 2 (of course). Its made for (and has only been tested in) GZDoom, it has about 25-30 maps planned, but not sure as of yet...

Im havin some trouble so far however...

The link to my first two maps (one playable map and a TITLEMAP) is at the bottom of this post.

Anywho, one problem is that I may have some gameplay flow issues (as quoted by my brother), so I need some suggestions on how to fix that.

Another is that I'm having the infamous Bullet Void glitch in the Briefing room area, any suggestions?

Yet another is that it is extremely lacking in detail, for I lack that certain prowess for that kinda thing, so any tips/help on that would be greatly appreciated.

The final thing is that I just would like to know how I am as a mapper (do I show any talent or anything?)

Anyway, just a note right before I put the link, this first map is supposed to be pretty easy. (to lure the player into thinking that the entire wad may be like that, and it also fits the "storyline" I'm putting in)

Heres the link:

http://www.savefile.com/files/711828

Any and all help is appreciated!

Comments? Suggestions? (Constructive critisizm only)

EDIT: BTW, Im sorry the dialog in the TITLEMAP sucks...I couldnt really think of anything else.

EDIT2: Also, sorry, but only text as dialog ATM, since I know absolutely nobody that can voice act very well...(especially not me...reason: "Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto..." Need any more of an explaination?)

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Okay, I played this in ZDoom since I can't get GZDoom to work, but almost everything was functional. I just had to noclip once.

The intro was okay, but needs some serious work on detail. There are lots of huge areas that the camera flies through that look awful. I will say the dark part with the two armies facing off was really cool, but you probably should have cut away from it while the fighting was still in full swing for a better effect. And don't ever end anything with "And so it begins."

The raging battlefield menu screen is a good idea, but it again looks awful due to severe lack of detail. In this case, it's a single sector.

The experiment gone wrong situation is a little tiresome, but I guess it's a simple way to get things rolling. Though I found it quite funny that one of the tests they perform on the captive Cyberdemon is to shoot it repeatedly. A lot of the dialogue is painful to read. And long.

Three weapons given literally right at the start, and the rest not much later -- lame. And why would you ditch your squad right after meeting up with them? Right after that, you remark that it's dark in the hanger when it really isn't dark at all. And the trap that springs in the briefing room doesn't make any sense either, but I guess I'm nitpicking here.

I couldn't leave the weapons locker after the cutscene. The door wouldn't open.

All in all, I think you have some good ideas, but you need to work on your delivery. You have tons of bad ZDoomy cutscenes -- try to limit those, and when you must use them, make sure they're interesting enough that I care about them.

On the topic of your detailing, it's some of the worst I've seen, and I don't say that to offend you, and I also don't mean that we all didn't start out like that. I'm not sure I have much advice on that for you. All I did, I think, was study. Try playing some WADs with a fair amount of detail and see what little things you can take from them and apply to your own maps. Also try to avoid such large areas -- the larger your rooms, the more difficult to detail them.

EDIT: I forgot to actually answer your questions...

Okay, for flow, I'm not sure. It seems like a map either "works" or it doesn't, and I don't know if I can describe how or why. Try starting small -- less weapons, weak enemies, smaller areas. I'm not sure if that will help. Cutscenes also often break the flow.

And do you show promise? I think it's too early to tell. I can't really say any more than that. You certainly shouldn't give up on mapping, if that's what you're asking.

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yeah, active storywriting (like Doom Cutscenes) aint my strongpoint...
I couldnt think of anything more than that... (and the "test" was a "Pain Tolerance test" ;) Oh, BTW, the CD was supposed to shoot the camera...did it?)

And I use 3D floors (linetype special 160), so it pretty much needs to be run in GZDoom, or else you sometimes cant get anywhere (could be that noclip incident).

As for the hangar, i left it bright for now so I can see, it will be darker in the final build.

The ditching the squad thing was just because I couldnt get the stupid marines to follow correctly (since they have literally no AI behind them)

As for the weapons, they're supposed to be their, since it IS a marine base after all. But dont worry, there will be a considerable drop in the amount of weapons and such by level 3 (possibly 2, but Im not sure as of yet)

And that other door after the weapons locker is just there for decoration (kinda like half the doors in the first level of Halo), you're supposed to get the blue key and go back to the blue doors (notice the sector glow).

Try playing this again when you get GZDoom working, it should be a bit better...(dont know how much though...)

And as for the text....Im still lookin for voice actors...but I think that should come later on shouldnt it... *eyeroll*

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I had a KEYCONF binding to skip the intro cutscene (default /), as stated by the small text in the upper right. Still trying to work out some kinks, like how to skip the planecrash cutscene... (that scene wont work correctly w/o 3D floors BTW)

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Steeveeo said:

Oh, BTW, the CD was supposed to shoot the camera...did it?)

Yes, it did. That was neat.

And I use 3D floors (linetype special 160), so it pretty much needs to be run in GZDoom, or else you sometimes cant get anywhere (could be that noclip incident).

I know, but I managed to get through it. For the crash cutscene I just assumed there was supposed to be a plane there.

The ditching the squad thing was just because I couldnt get the stupid marines to follow correctly (since they have literally no AI behind them)

It's not really a big deal, but you could try for a more believable scenario. For example, if you never met up with them, could see and communicate with them, but were separated somehow. Or, if you did meet them, maybe you'd have to split up so they could hold off a wave of monsters coming from the other direction while you went into the hangar.

As for the weapons, they're supposed to be their, since it IS a marine base after all. But dont worry, there will be a considerable drop in the amount of weapons and such by level 3 (possibly 2, but Im not sure as of yet)

You could still cut down on them. Perhaps just the shotgun, chaingun, and plasma gun. SSG's, rocket launchers, and BFG's I wouldn't imagine are standard issue marine weapons anyway.

Definitely make the player lose the weapons though if you do choose to give a lot in the first level. I big part of the fun (for me) is finding more powerful guns as I go through the WAD.

And that other door after the weapons locker is just there for decoration...


I was talking about the door I'd entered through. Maybe it's because I was running in ZDoom, but I don't know how that would cause the problem.

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I never put the BFG in there...but yeah, I'll move the RL to the weapons locker I guess...

As for the scenario, I've benn toying with it in my head...I guess I could have a wall explode and monsters come pouring into that open area (not sure whether I should call it a courtyard or what, since its rigth outside the runway...)

Im not sure why you couldnt get back thru the door ya came in, always works for me...I'll check to make sure if the line is set to "Activates always" or w/e the tag was...

Have you gotten to the end yet? Or is that possible w/o 3D floors?

And finally, got any suggestions on what/where/how I should detail?

EDIT: I just noticed this comment:

And don't ever end anything with "And so it begins."

Whats wrong with THAT? And I'm not "ending" anything except the intro...and a lot of books/shows/movies with intros do that...Its kinda a Preface kinda thing: "And so it begins" *que action*

In other words...I dont get it...


EDIT2: also, know of anybody who can do cool title banners? I've tryed my hand at it, but I am no artist (as you can see from the lack of detail in the map...)

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Steeveeo said:

I never put the BFG in there...but yeah, I'll move the RL to the weapons locker I guess...

I couldn't remember if there was a BFG or not, so I just included it in my comment.

Have you gotten to the end yet? Or is that possible w/o 3D floors?

Yes, it is. I was confused with that last part when you're flying until I realized it was just a skybox.

And finally, got any suggestions on what/where/how I should detail?

I don't know. This is one of the hardest things to explain. You just get a feel for it after a while. The rule of thumb is that you can detail the ceiling all you want, but go light on the floors. Borders are a good start -- just a raised (or sometimes lowered) sector around the room. I find ceilings the easiest most of the time since you can do just about anything to them. Missing tiles, indented lights, low lights that come down near the player, skylights, support beams. In the walls, you can add little alcoves, panels missing with circuitry or pipes behind, lights mounted into the walls. Just use your imagination.

Whats wrong with THAT? And I'm not "ending" anything except the intro...and a lot of books/shows/movies with intros do that...Its kinda a Preface kinda thing: "And so it begins" *que action*

That's exactly why. It's just the cheesiest, overused line. Anything is better.

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hrrm...the detail you described I should add doesnt make it seem like a military base (except for the sector borders and lights fixtures) But the damaged sections in the walls/ceiling/floor wouldnt be right since the outpost JUST came under attack (the only real damage will be seem in level 2)

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I tried it, the file size is quite big. When you turn off the machine that is spawning Baron's I think more imps and sargents should be coming out, or get rid of the Plasma rifle. 50% of the map I spent watching cutscene and reading text.

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yeah, Im working on fixing that...its the first level, and it has a little bit of a storyline (can only hope it works), so the first one or two levels will be cutscene heavy, but that amount WILL dwindle down within the next two maps.

@Rone: Also, that cliched line is unavoidable at this time...I cant think of anything else...

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Steeveeo said:

...I cant think of anything else...


Should be the tag line for this whole project. I played it, and I'm not trying to be harsh or whatever, but I don't understand your motivation for a project like this, or even if it's totally serious or not, but when simple details like not using tired sci-fi cliches hasn't even been explored you gotta wonder. You keeping talking about the importance of including this story when it's nothing original at all.

Next, the maps. Again, this is obviously a zdoom project, which adds a whole new dimension to mapping in general that requires a pretty large understanding, yet here we have obviously sub 1994 styled mapping. Huge, barren spaces, with no effort to make any kind of detail, Hideous texture choices, flat lighting, I mean the list goes on. In my opinion, these maps are not presentable for ANY kind of project, let alone some story driven experience. Who would want to play 25 or 32 maps like this? Who wants to sit through cutscenes only to have an ugly, ugly map ahead of them? You asked about your talent as a mapper? Dude, I have no idea. How can I tell with these maps of boxes and nothing? You could be a great mapper but it's clear you need much more practice.


Now here's my advice. Start small. Much smaller than this. Practice your mapping, if it's important enough for you to make your own maps for this project. Maybe make some small scripted maps detailing the story of your characters. Make fun little gameplay maps with some special effects, learn the fundamentals of making enjoyable levels before attempting a project this ambitious. When you feel you're up to THEN make the big story driven adventure.
If you keep doing this, it will only be mocked and forgotten, and what's the point? Aside from some neat scenes of the marines fighting, which are really just a gimmick in themselves, this project as it stands has nothing to offer the player.

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as I said before, Im working on the details, the map is nowhere NEAR complete!

Instead of only critisizing the horrendous lack of detail (yes I know it sucks) how about making some suggestions about the map!

Anyway, I guess I shouldve put my motivation before...

Kinda silly, but I have a big collection of music on my MP3 player and decided to see what kind of levels fit with which song, and I had some really cool ideas for a lot of other levels, but I had to start somewhere, and a Base setting seemed like the most logical. And obviously I need a little practice on the Base type map, not to mention the song itself that I'm using is a tad hard to model around.

Then my friend suggests I explain the story a bit in the TITLEMAP feature, so I came up with that...

Use3D: How about trying to help instead of trying to tear me down, eh?


On a side note: This is no where NEAR my worst map ever by far! I had a map before that was part of a project for Doomsday (Doom1) that had the player running through the map for at least a mile through weird as hell (no pun intended) textured areas and giant monster ambushes. Maybe I should upload that as a comparison of what NOT to do! XP

Maybe after that this map wont seem so bad...

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The first thing that caught my eye was how huge the rooms were, but there was nothing to do in them. There were no items, no monsters, not many desks either.

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Steeveeo said:

Use3D: How about trying to help instead of trying to tear me down, eh?


I did, but if that's all you can glean from it then oh well.

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Use3D said:

I did, but if that's all you can glean from it then oh well.

what part of that actually helped....

BASGTA said:

The first thing that caught my eye was how huge the rooms were, but there was nothing to do in them. There were no items, no monsters, not many desks either.

So which rooms would make sence to add monsters in?

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Use3D said:
I did, but if that's all you can glean from it then oh well.

It's usually better to spend time on advice only when there's already some promise. People who are lost can hardly see the path pointed out for them amid the briars of their inexperience.

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Steeveeo said:

what part of that actually helped....


I think it would be in your best interest to read his entire first post again, closely and with an open mind. I agree entirely with his advice.

Learn the basics of mapping (interesting layout with sensible flow and good connectivity, fun and exciting gameplay with good monster placement and varied traps, etc). Then, once you're capable of creating a fun vanilla or limit-removing map, try making Zdoom maps if you want to. All the scripting and other crap, while they can be used to good effect if you're careful to use them in a non-annoying way and the map itself is good, are not where your priorities should be if you can't make a basic map yet...

not that you'll actually read any of this anyway :(

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I did read it...all that I came across was negativity and what seemed like insults, but I guess in some way they werent...

And I have made a pretty good map in vanilla before, its just that this theme is throwing me all off...

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There is one room that is really big with not much in it (Picture). About adding monsters to the big rooms, I don't think they would make sense with the storyline. I would just shrink the rooms a little.

The hanger door, (the first really big door) the doortrak texture takes up a little to much room. (Picture)

There was one room I liked, but the textures in the corner could use a little fixing, but it's not that big of a deal. (Picture)

One last thing, the window by the bridge should be pushed more towards the bridge. (Picture)

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Ech. I didn't want to say it quite as harshly as the the other posters here are telling you, but you really should listen to them. Don't give up on this project if it's what you want to do, but at least put it on the back burner for a while. I know you don't want to hear that, because I wouldn't have either.

The key here is starting small. You're new to this, and what you're trying to create here is way out of your league.

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thats the problem though...Im NOT that new to this...

I started with the old DOS editors (DMapEdit) way back when, but detailing is not my strongpoint, thats why I came here to get suggestions, not to be basically to "stop that!"

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heh,the battlefield scene was in fact a nice idea,though I remember seeing a HOM sometimes,but that maybe because I used zdoom. I was really surprised when the text "Are you with me,farhaven?" appeared at the end of the cutscene,that was certainly cool. One can see this is at it's very beginning, but I'd seriously love to play this once it's done. Keep up the work :)

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Steeveeo said:

thats the problem though...Im NOT that new to this...

I started with the old DOS editors (DMapEdit) way back when, but detailing is not my strongpoint, thats why I came here to get suggestions, not to be basically to "stop that!"

Hmm... I didn't mean to jump to conclusions. Have you released any maps before? And have you always worked on such a large scale?

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Steeveeo said:

... but detailing is not my strongpoint, thats why I came here to get suggestions, not to be basically to "stop that!"


RoneKyakone said:

Have you released any maps before?



A better question would be have you played any maps released in the last 10 years. Again, I don't know what you honestly expect people to suggest that simply PLAYING some maps and looking at them wouldn't tell you. You may find that no ammount of ceiling borders or panels with wires behind them are going to save these maps. If you expect someone to come along and write you a magic paragraph suddenly making huge empty boxes look cool then you better not hold your breath.

You don't need suggestions, you need practice. Lots of it.

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I had a long-ass post chock-full of suggestions and comments, but it started going off-topic and was like 10003 words long or something.

Anyways, Steeveeo, you should listen to these guys. They are not flaming you. Criticising, yes, because that's why you created this thread, to get some criticism, right? And it's constructive criticism at that. After I read the replies I wanted to check it out for myself, but as like them, I was unimpressed too. Looks like something I would have mapped 9 years ago.

Anyways (again), I don't doubt your mapping ability. You seem to have the dedication and desire to learn. I just don't think you have the experience yet. You need to play some maps, and not just ones that might appeal to you, but famous and time-tested classics.

Do a forum search on "favorite wads", and you'll get plenty of suggestions. Just take a few days to yourself and play through them, closely examining architectural details, thing placement, and the resulting gameplay. Think about how things work while in-game and study your automap a lot, observing how certain details are mapped out.

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Wouldn't it be an good idea to start with making some maps for plain doom2 format I was thinking that the power of gzdoom and all its features might overwelm the beginning mapper.

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dutch devil said:

Wouldn't it be an good idea to start with making some maps for plain doom2 format I was thinking that the power of gzdoom and all its features might overwelm the beginning mapper.


Yes exactly. All that stuff is counterproductive when you don't know the basics of mapping.

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Why is it that I get the feeling you all think that this map is complete?

But the thing is...its nowhere NEAR complete (as I said before). I know it lacks detail! I know it has troublesome gameplay issues! Thats why I came here, to get suggestions to finally finish this damn map up!

In all these posts, I have only seen 4 so far that actually helped!

Two by Rone, two by BASGTA...

So why doesnt anyone else try to help finish this map instead of thinking that whats there is ALL that will be there?!

If it was realy complete, it would be in the Wads & Mods section now wouldnt it?

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Steeveeo said:

Why is it that I get the feeling you all think that this map is complete?


I don't know why I even bother because it's obvious that you've missed the point entirely. We realize the map is not complete, but if this is as far as your mapping ability can go before asking for help then you've been wasting your time.

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