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xbolt

Knee-Deep in Websites

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The Knee-Deep in ZDoom project now has its own website, with screenshots and other goodies. KDiZD is currently scheduled for a summer 2007 release. Visit the site here.

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Good news, I guess. What I played of the leak wasn't half bad, might as well check out the full monty when it gets released. Hurry up!

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Those screenshots are pretty sextacular...I'm definitely looking forward to the release.

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The screenshots are tiny and have an annoying tint that washes out all of the colour. It's impossible to discern much from them. Could you please provide something better than thumbnails?

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fraggle said:

The screenshots are tiny and have an annoying tint that washes out all of the colour. It's impossible to discern much from them. Could you please provide something better than thumbnails?


Yeah, seriously. Give me a 32-bit png with at least a resolution of 1024x768.

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fraggle said:

The screenshots are tiny and have an annoying tint that washes out all of the colour. It's impossible to discern much from them. Could you please provide something better than thumbnails?


Seconded. Screenshots are supposed to show off the WAD and give people a taste of what's to come (aren't they?), so posting screenshots where it's impossible to really make out anything is rather silly.

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Naked Snake said:

Yeah, seriously. Give me a 32-bit png with at least a resolution of 1024x768.

Even 320x200x8 would be enough!

I can only imagine that perhaps this is some kind of lame attempt at hyping up the WAD and that the authors think we're so excited that we're going to sit here drooling over tiny little distorted thumbnails?

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Personally, I think screen shots are spoilers to a degree, so smallish or stylized ones aren't really a bad idea.

You only really need clear screen shots when presenting something totally new, where without them the potential users (or, especially, buyers) won't really know what's in store.

In this case, many of the authors are already well known, so if you know their work and get a description of the current one, you already have an idea of what type of addon it will be.

It'll get bigger sceen shots when if goes by /newstuff, anyway, plus any other reviews it gets.

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myk said:

Personally, I think screen shots are spoilers to a degree, so smallish or stylized ones aren't really a bad idea.


What's the point of putting up screenshots at all, then? :) (Not to mention that those who don't want spoilers always have the option of not looking at them - if they'd even consider 320x200x8 shots to be spoilers at all.)

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myk said:

It'll get bigger sceen shots when if goes by /newstuff, anyway, plus any other reviews it gets.

I'm not so sure that will ever happen, considering it's based on the original levels.

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Schneelocke said:

What's the point of putting up screenshots at all, then? :)



It's called 'teaser'. And you will be able to see the full maps soon enough.

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Bloodshedder said:

I'm not so sure that will ever happen, considering it's based on the original levels.


Although I'm not the one who took care of these issues, I believe the mod is perfectly legal in all regards.
Since the original maps are also distributed as shareware, I don't think it's a problem to base new levels on them.
However, I could be wrong... someone like Risen surely knows better than me in the case of KDiZD!

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Graf Zahl said:

It's called 'teaser'. And you will be able to see the full maps soon enough.


YMMV, but for me, a "teaser" should actually allow you to make out something in order to whet your appetite. A larger screenshot that actually allows you to see part of a map and makes you think "hey, this looks great, I'm looking forward to playing that map" is a teaser; the screenshots posted here stretch the definition a lot, to say the least, especially since they're not even presented in the colours of the game.

In other words, they look interesting (and somewhat artistic), but for the purpose of acting as "teasers", they're pretty much useless. If you want teasers, make them at least somewhat larger and present them in the original colours so that people can see what the maps actually look like.

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Bloodshedder said:

I'm not so sure that will ever happen, considering it's based on the original levels.


Since it's made for Doom1, it's perfectly legal.

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Schneelocke said:
What's the point of putting up screenshots at all, then?

Just to give a glimpse... my point is, the (magnitude of the) glimpse given depends on how you want to promote it. Like I said, in the case of a DOOM wad, especially if you know the authors and have read about it, you already know what to expect to a degree, unlike a new game with a totally new design and artwork. When DOOM was being promoted, before it was released, screen shots showed its totally new artwork and new engine features (such as nonorthogonal walls, height changes, and lighting variation). Wads don't innovate so much; we already know the engine specs, and thus don't need so much pre-play display. A TC could do with more, for example, because it's harder to describe or judge with mere words.

(Not to mention that those who don't want spoilers always have the option of not looking at them - if they'd even consider 320x200x8 shots to be spoilers at all.)

The authors decide how much to show, depending on their needs and style. And, also, we've already seen KDiZD screens in previous threads; those who really want to see bigger ones can just as well browse the forums and places where they're found (this is the converse argument of what you just said).

Vader said:
Since the original maps are also distributed as shareware, I don't think it's a problem to base new levels on them.

As far as copyright goes, the shareware is like the registered or commercial portions. The only difference is that you can download it for free, and that you can't make addons for it.

For KDiZD, did you guys start off from the original maps and then add stuff on top? That's what "based on" generally means in regard to wads... otherwise it's "imitates" or "is inspired on". Regardless, there's a provision at idgames to keep out mere hacks of the original levels, such as an E1M1 with a few changes, pink textures, or more monsters, but I doubt Ty would consider this project under that category. And id software even allows people to use portions of the IWADs as long as the resulting addons are for use with the respective IWAD (KDiZD can use art or designs originating from DOOM or The Ultimate DOOM).

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Bloodshedder said:

I'm not so sure that will ever happen, considering it's based on the original levels.

If that criterion was interpreted in a strict sense then there would be many tribute wads that would never have made it to the idgames archives. As it is, I believe that wads with areas that resemble (even strongly resemble) the originals, would not be considered copyright infringement if they have undergone a reasonable degree of change. Heck, if that was the case Phobos Revisited would never have seen the light of day. And KDiZD appears to be far from approaching copyright infringement.

Staying on topic, however, I liked the web-site design - although the empty space in the middle of the main page could have been used for the Introduction text. On the one hand I thought the pictures were quite "artsy" and interesting. On the other hand I was somewhat disappointed that they were so small.

Despite all the hype, however, I am looking forward to playing this map-set - not least because of the talent behind it.

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ReX said:
Staying on topic, however, I liked the web-site design - although the empty space in the middle of the main page could have been used for the Introduction text. On the one hand I thought the pictures were quite "artsy" and interesting. On the other hand I was somewhat disappointed that they were so small.

Yeah, the sepia color is cool for the brownish theme; what I think is that it's overkill that there are (so) many shots of each level. They'd be better used instead as part of the design, illustrating and ornamenting the information presented (which could be more; maybe comments or quotes from the designers, and other tidbits). You don't even need to say what level each shot belongs to (some might actually be identifiable in any case due to similarities with the original levels.)

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Since the legality of the map modifications is questioned again, I'll repeat that the modifications are in compliance with Doom's original license which explicitly allows releasing modified resources as long as they work with the same IWAD.

In any case, if this WAD isn't allowed into /idgames I'd say that at least 10-20% of the stuff in there had to go because it contains things whose legality is genuinely questionable.

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We've been in touch with ID themselves regarding the legal issues, and according to them it's perfectly legal to release modified versions of maps, as long as the maps are to be used in the game they came from (i.e. no modified Doom 2 maps in Doom 1, or visa versa).

Technically, wads for Doom 2 which include textures, music, etc from Doom 1 (or the other way around) are illegal, but of course a considerable number of wads on idgames do this and no-one's ever gotten into trouble for it.

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And don't forget fact #3, nobody gives a flying fuck. Seriously, Ty doesn't care and he'll put it up. id doesn't give a shit and will ignore it. Why do people honestly think there is even one iota of controversy here? If there is ANY, it's because you guys were dumb enough to write to id and ask them for permission.

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Scuba Steve said:
And don't forget fact #3, nobody gives a flying fuck. Seriously, Ty doesn't care and he'll put it up. id doesn't give a shit and will ignore it. Why do people honestly think there is even one iota of controversy here? If there is ANY, it's because you guys were dumb enough to write to id and ask them for permission.

The almost Hitleresque passion in your post belies that you can see people do care... particularly the ones that discuss the matter. Regardless of what you may think (you can do whatever you want), people do what they think is best, and people respect others' copyrights or requests due to their humane and communal behavior, even when it's not inminently or terminally necessary, or economically beneficial, to do so.

Authorship is one of the aspects of design, and it's no reason to rebuke authors if they take it into proper consideration.

If an author notes his wishes in regard to his work on a text file or document, I'll respect it, regardless of whether that's some other guy in my community I trade comments and share addons with, or a company that released some game. What's more, to us, as people who share a hobby, it is almost more important to do that simply for the acknowledgement of mutual respect than for any fear of being sued or otherwise restricted (which comes much later and only in extreme cases).

Also, so much for id "not caring"; Hollenshead replied to them with an answer and all. Since they don't spend hours surfing the net just in case some addon violated some license or copyright, seeking to punish evildoers, it means they "don't care"? Great thinking.

No matter what you think, it still matters as long as others care, even if YOU don't.

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Scuba Steve said:

And don't forget fact #3, nobody gives a flying fuck. Seriously, Ty doesn't care and he'll put it up. id doesn't give a shit and will ignore it. Why do people honestly think there is even one iota of controversy here? If there is ANY, it's because you guys were dumb enough to write to id and ask them for permission.

And Scuba Steve wins the thread.

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myk said:

some stuff about copyright infringement

Why are you having an apoplexy over this? Even if id DID care, they wouldn't bother to do anything about it. Doom is 13-and-a-half years old for Christ's sakes. What exactly are you trying to say? You seem to be saying that this project shouldn't be released due to copyright infringement because id will NOTICE. Or CARE. Or whatever the hell you said, but they won't DO anything about it. So what's the point of not releasing a project because you're scared of the original authors seeing it? Isn't that the point of any release anyway? To get people to see it? I mean sure, if people say something about something being in a release that is either inappropriate or illegal, you can go ahead and remove it, but id WON'T.

Like Scuba said, they don't care. In the least.

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Jimmy91 said:
What exactly are you trying to say? You seem to be saying that this project shouldn't be released due to copyright infringement because id will NOTICE.

Holy shit.

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Hay everybody, it's myk who has come to disagree with anything just argue. Also, nice job with the Nazi/Hitler reference off the bat. usually it takes a few back and forth banters to get to that point, nice to see you're willing to take it up a notch and get the ball rolling with that comparison.

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myk said:

The authors decide how much to show, depending on their needs and style. And, also, we've already seen KDiZD screens in previous threads; those who really want to see bigger ones can just as well browse the forums and places where they're found (this is the converse argument of what you just said).


Of course the authors decide how much to show, but that's irrelevant. The whole point of the discussion, after all, is that others don't agree with the decision of the authors (that is, whoever put up the screenshots).

But hey, having a rational discussion with people who compare others they don't agree with to Hitler (a few posts further down, not in the one I'm replying to, and not directed at me... but still) is probably impossible, anyway, so I'm just going to stop trying to do so - I don't want to get involved into anything beyond a normal, rational discussion where disagreement is voiced in a calm manner. :)

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It's the "turn a blind eye" policy. id is more than willing to overlook most of the infringement issues with Doom. It is harmless, id has a real sense of community and, if you're not stepping on their toes (eg: Generations), they ignore it. When the team sent id an email, the response they got was not what id would actually do, or their real intentions, but a stock legal response. If you write me and say, "Scuba, I want to use some artwork from AD2, can I do it without crediting you?" I'm going to tell you, that you can use it, but you need to credit me. Now... if you just go ahead and use some minor textures I drew and not credit me, I'm not going to care. I can't TELL you that because I need to make some attempt to enforce my copyright... but the reality is it doesn't matter.

Same goes for id, if KDIZD uses a couple Doom2 textures and sprites in Doom1 and LOOSELY bases some levels off the shareware... id. doesn't. care. Thousands of authors have done it and nobody cared. Nobody. Hell, even Raven or 3D realms don't do anything about the abuse of their material in Doom wads. They are ignored and Ty still uploads them. This is a non issue. By asking Todd, they made it an issue... and you guys continue to push it as such.

Is it disrespectful and TECHNICALLY a violation of copyright? Sure... but, again, nobody important cares.

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