Started on a project for the ultimate doom

[hardcore_gamer]

Bank said:

height variation?

huh?

[Bank]

hardcore_gamer said:

huh?

In the two screen shots you posted, there was little to no height variation.

[hardcore_gamer]

Well screenshots don't tell the hole story.

[Bank]

hardcore_gamer said:

Well screenshots don't tell the hole story.

Right, but if you're trying to impress people or show what the "hole story" is, you've failed.

Your wad is only as good as what you can show for it.

[hardcore_gamer]

Bank said:

Right, but if you're trying to impress people or show what the "hole story" is, you've failed.

Your wad is only as good as what you can show for it.

Well yes, but this is still work in progress and i released it to get feedback and i got some, so thank you.

[Dutch Doomer]

hardcore_gamer said:

So was E1M1 in Doom.



Duh! There is not allot of room for many monsters in a map so small, and i don't remember any traps in E1M1. I don't like crusher traps anyway.

E1M1 is bigger than this and who said you had to put in crusher traps.

[hardcore_gamer]

dutch devil said:

E1M1 is bigger than this and who said you had to put in crusher traps.

I never said E1M1 was not bigger i just said it was short. And yes this map is very short. Perhaps i will make it longer.

EDIT: I am now making the map longer. I have also fixed many of the texture things. Along with editing the lights.

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

Shot one is bland as hell. The endeavor of trying to complete a classic-style project is commendable as no one does it anymore, but you've got to realize that what you're doing just looks too desolate to fit the classic style. For example, in this shot I speak of, try raising the ceiling on the sky/detail sectors in the middle and the outer sector surrounding it by a few units (DoomBuilder: select all the sectors to raise, and edit their ceiling value by putting a ++(value) or --(value) in the "Ceiling Height" field). Also, maybe throw a depression in the floor with FLAT14 in it if you're aiming for 'classic'. ;)

Shot two is not classic. The ceiling lights aren't very fitting, first off - take E2M2 as your example. CEIL3_3 and CEIL3_4 are your friends. Also, no height variation here. Also, maybe consider a higher ceiling, and lower the floor between the sector the player is in and the sector the imps are in, then adjust the crates accordingly. I see the potential for an E2 style map in there.

Not trying to bump you just yet, but what you've shown needs some work. It looks more like a 1994 mapset than "classic".

[hardcore_gamer]

Fisk said:

Shot one is bland as hell. The endeavor of trying to complete a classic-style project is commendable as no one does it anymore, but you've got to realize that what you're doing just looks too desolate to fit the classic style. For example, in this shot I speak of, try raising the ceiling on the sky/detail sectors in the middle and the outer sector surrounding it by a few units (DoomBuilder: select all the sectors to raise, and edit their ceiling value by putting a ++(value) or --(value) in the "Ceiling Height" field). Also, maybe throw a depression in the floor with FLAT14 in it if you're aiming for 'classic'. ;)

Shot two is not classic. The ceiling lights aren't very fitting, first off - take E2M2 as your example. CEIL3_3 and CEIL3_4 are your friends. Also, no height variation here. Also, maybe consider a higher ceiling, and lower the floor between the sector the player is in and the sector the imps are in, then adjust the crates accordingly. I see the potential for an E2 style map in there.

Not trying to bump you just yet, but what you've shown needs some work. It looks more like a 1994 mapset than "classic".

Well i never once said that my goal was to create levels that look perfectly the same as the knee deep in the dead episode from Doom1, but what the wad does have in common is the fact it takes place in a hi-tech army base and has a hole episode of gameplay. Of course some things will look similar to the levels of the first episode but you have to understand i am not just trying to just copy the style of knee deep in the dead and make some new levels with it, it has bin done a hundred times and i don't want to.

[printz]

You're also getting inspiration from Doom's second, third and fourth episodes, aren't you? (I hope you do, because I really like those episodes, probably more than Knee-Deep, but there's very little remake for them).

By the way, episodes 2 and 3 had very little height variation. They were designed with 2 dimensions in mind. Episode 1 does have lots of slime falling (mainly dead-ends, but also ways to secrets), perhaps E1 is newer than E2 and E3, quite ironically. And E4 is already after Doom 2, and there's TONS of height variation, which adds a lot to the gameplay. My favourite episode for replays, and the neatest.

To be honest, your first screenshot from your first post looks okay, especially if it's only a skylit hallway for a standard UAC Phobos installation. What if it's desolate? So it is supposed to be. There are no living humans there except the player(s)! Lack of detail? Buildings in real life, especially space buildings, aren't made for beauty, but for stability. Ok, I mean modern buildings, but this space stuff is it. Let's think real, not day-dream.

And about the second one? That's clearly a Containment Area cameo, but with twists. My thoughts about Deimos base are two:
1) Either it's an "ancient" (whatever) "alien" (whatever) "dig" (whatever), so yah, it's supposed to look ancient, with whatever "arcane" stuff entered there, and using the likes of STONE2 bricks (who builds walls in vacuum if not a true king?), and artistic CEMENT walls (which look way too wacky to be built by the human terran working class). Now that ancient base has been taken over by humans, used as "natural" habitats for communications, storage, laboratories. Let's face it, E2M1, E2M4 were huge and strange.
2) Or a human base, demonized beyond control. You know. They summoned bricks and hellish cement on the olde plating walls. They summoned wooden pillars ala E2M5. They created MARBLE out of thin vacuum and inscribed it with their own disembodied heads. They destroyed everything by teleporting it into Baphomet's mouth, to not enter and fall into the flashing brown acid below. All that's left of the old human bases is the map and the structure. But it's Their house. So what I'm telling is that for E2 styled maps, keep things 2D (little gameplay-influencing height variation), and make it look like a "rather primitive" space base, when seen from above, that's been refurnished with bricks, wood, green marble, human skin NOT EVERYWHERE, and whose devices, machinery has been taken away or deposited somewhere, so everywhere else looks empty. Take a look at E2M4 (for "fake", emptied human-made bases) and E2M5 (to see how a civilized officer club turned into a devil's home).

Don't put too many former humans, sergeants or spectres in an EPISODE 2-like map.

BY THE BIG WAY, REALLY IMPORTANT. AS FAR AS I REMEMBER, there are no Trees, Stubs and Impaled Humans Anywhere in Episode 1 or 2. They are new in Episode 3. So see below.

Episode 3 interpretations. How to deal with these. E3 has lots of outside areas, always rich with tree things, stubs and impaled humans. Ground textures look rocky (FLAT10, FLOOR6_1, FLOOR6_2 etc.) There's next to no height variation (this is registered Doom (1)) -- water/acid/lava pools are at most 24 units deep, unless aimed for traps, like in E3M1. Lava usually hurts bad in E3. Buildings are made of SP_HOT1, GSTONE*, SKINMET*, PIPE*, plus the odd UAC mech door (how do they fare there anyway?), but most doors are wooden. Don't forget other chromatic colors, like COMPBLUE, FIREBLU1, FIREWALA, FIREMAG1, FIRELAVA. The monsters are usually heavy (demons, spectres, cacos, barons). BTW, Episode 3 might as well accept puzzles, but don't go crazy, or DEATHZ0R will have bad impressions. Good luck with the Spiderdemon, it's as important a figure of Episode 3, as the Cyber-Lord is for E2.

Episode 4 might be easier to reproduce, because it looked much more modern. Yeah. There's lots of clean oldish texturing - wood, marble, stone, iron/bronze, brown plaster (BROWNHUG), even brown plating ala E1 (BROWN96). Now here, please use as much height variation as you will. Slime or water floods most E4 territories. Attention to detail is a bit more important too, because E4 is meant to imitate temples, crater temples, flooded temples, keeps, fantasy barrackses and ancient stuff. Don't overlight the levels, because E4 was quite gloomy. E4 has this specific monster proportion: lots of lots of sergeants, imps, spectres, and many cacos, barons, plus the odd Cyberdemon or Spiderdemon (for balance's sake). End it with an epic level (E4M8 was just that except for the boss). Refrain from using tech textures, except for at most a level (like E4M7). Always try to impress the end-player with the traps, looks and evolution of an Episode 4 game.

As for Episode 1, you probably saw KDiZD and you found too much detail. Anyway, episode 1 is distinctive. No generic shoot-em-up texturing here. Look a lot at the original episodes and copy the rules. Never use, or use sparely, demonic graphics. It's supposed to look newly invaded, even the computers are supposed to still be functional, and the walls clean. In fact, make it like how a real space base would be, but don't add new textures.

[myk]

printz said:
perhaps E1 is newer than E2 and E3, quite ironically.

No; Knee Deep in the Dead was mostly John Romero's work, while the other two episodes were by Sandy Petersen (although some levels were basically designed by Tom Hall).

[Bank]

myk said:

(although some levels were basically designed by Tom Hall).

Didn't he invent the cratemaze?

[myk]

Bank said:
Didn't he invent the cratemaze?

Yeah, he made E2M2 and Sandy then edited the level. You can see specifically what he wokred on at his site.

[hardcore_gamer]

Thank you for your advice Printz, but you are not completely right on my plans. Even though the second screenshot looks allot like E2M2 it has NO
demonic or hellish textures. I will probably make a episode 2 and 3 (don't know about a episode 4) but right know it is episode 1 and it will be base levels only. Not all of the maps are space stations however. The monster's and the weapons are the same as that from
episode 1. Lots and lots of former humans and shotgun zombies, many imps
and some demons to run along with the rest. The shotgun is all you will have to start with, before picking up the chaingun and the
rocket launcher. Perhaps i will have some barons in the last level.

[scwiba]

I'll start with the obvious -- texturing and lighting. Both are pretty bad, but can be fixed relatively easily. There are loads of misalignments, cutoffs, and badly textured doors. Aside from that, I think you need to work on your texturing sense. There's a point where you just get a feel for it, but I don't think you're there yet. As for lighting, I believe you may have just left most of it at the default of your map editor, because it all seems to be the same gloomy 128 (with some exceptions).

What I mentioned earlier in this thread is true. The monster encounters are quite flat and I got bored with them quickly. Try to surprise me -- and it doesn't always have to be with traps. A demon hiding in a dark corner, an imp just around a corner, anything that comes at me from a direction that isn't straight ahead. Make good use of deaf enemies. Part of it is also a lack of height variation. While I'm not going to nail you as much as some others will on the lack of height changes, one thing that it does help with is varying fights. Fighting on stairs, against monsters above you on a ledge, or with enemies on the other side of a chasm or narrow window makes things interesting.

I also don't see any reason for the maps to be longer than they are if you don't want them to be.

[hardcore_gamer]

RoneKyakone said:

I'll start with the obvious -- texturing and lighting. Both are pretty bad, but can be fixed relatively easily. There are loads of misalignments, cutoffs, and badly textured doors. Aside from that, I think you need to work on your texturing sense. There's a point where you just get a feel for it, but I don't think you're there yet. As for lighting, I believe you may have just left most of it at the default of your map editor, because it all seems to be the same gloomy 128 (with some exceptions).

What I mentioned earlier in this thread is true. The monster encounters are quite flat and I got bored with them quickly. Try to surprise me -- and it doesn't always have to be with traps. A demon hiding in a dark corner, an imp just around a corner, anything that comes at me from a direction that isn't straight ahead. Make good use of deaf enemies. Part of it is also a lack of height variation. While I'm not going to nail you as much as some others will on the lack of height changes, one thing that it does help with is varying fights. Fighting on stairs, against monsters above you on a ledge, or with enemies on the other side of a chasm or narrow window makes things interesting.

I also don't see any reason for the maps to be longer than they are if you don't want them to be.

Well thank you. I like to create the level as a hole before starting to tweek things. The lightning and the textures from that map i just showed you have bin worked on. I have also made the level a little longer. Hope it will help.

I don't want to sound like a moron but i don't beleve i know what a
deaf enemy is.

[Ichor]

Click on a thing (preferably a monster) and look at the flags like multiplayer, difficulty, etc. One of them is 'deaf'. With that checked, any monster will only start attacking you when it first sees you or gets hit.

[printz]

myk said:

No; Knee Deep in the Dead was mostly John Romero's work, while the other two episodes were by Sandy Petersen (although some levels were basically designed by Tom Hall).

That doesn't say the time (well, Hall left earlier and Petersen came later -- so E3 could be newer, dunno about E1 -- E2).

[hardcore_gamer]

Ichor said:

Click on a thing (preferably a monster) and look at the flags like multiplayer, difficulty, etc. One of them is 'deaf'. With that checked, any monster will only start attacking you when it first sees you or gets hit.

oh! I always thought that had something to do with multiplayer.

[scwiba]

printz said:

That doesn't say the time (well, Hall left earlier and Petersen came later -- so E3 could be newer, dunno about E1 -- E2).

Most of E3 is almost certainly newer. The only E3 map in the Doom alphas is E3M3, whereas there are a number of maps from both of the other episodes. It's also the only one that neither Tom Hall nor Romero had a hand in creating (except E3M3), which is probably why it wasn't as strong as the others. In my opinion, of course.

[Kristian Nebula]

dutch devil said:

Kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos kudos

Sorry for the offtopic but in finnish the word kudos means organic tissue. Very doomish to say kudos, haha ;)

[myk]

RoneKyakone said:
(except E3M3)

Don't forget E3M7.

[scwiba]

myk said:

Don't forget E3M7.

The only bit of E3M7 that existed in the alphas was the open lava room at the beginning, if I remember correctly. If that's the case, I wouldn't really say Tom Hall had much to do with it. Although, it does say he worked on that map on his website, so maybe he did more work on it after the 5-22 alpha was released.

When exactly did Tom officially leave id?

[hardcore_gamer]

New screens:

[myk]

RoneKyakone said:
If that's the case, I wouldn't really say Tom Hall had much to do with it.

I wager he made most of the layout, as it looks too solid and neat to be Sandy Petersen's, who must have touched it up, placed things, and retextured where necessary. It gives an impression of spaciousness that seems to be something Tom Hall looked for a lot in his levels (like where he notes on his site that increasing connectivity in E2M2 kind of broke that feel).

[hardcore_gamer]

Can you give me some feedback on the screens?

[EANB]

The first screen looks alot like E1m5, which is nice. How about a few pillars in the nukage in the second shot?

[scwiba]

It's hard to tell with them so dark, but the first does look good. E1M5 came to mind as soon as I saw it. I don't know if that's good or bad. The second shot rubs me the wrong way.

[hardcore_gamer]

I have finished making the levels. I will now do some other things like setting the co-op setting right and such.

[scwiba]

I just finished playing through the episode.

Your encounters are still very blah, though I did notice one part toward the end of M4 where it was fairly interesting. The trap area at the end of M6 was also good.

I was surprised by M5. Not only was there that area in the screenshot you posted that looked sort of like E1M5, but the whole level was a ripoff of it -- or a tribute, if you want to be nice about it. M6 was clearly inspired by E1M9 too, but you made it different enough that it was okay.

Your texture work is still a big problem. It doesn't feel at all inspired -- more that you're just using E1 textures and hoping it works together because it did in E1. You need to work on aligning things as well. Not just textures but some flats as well. STEP1 and 2 need to be properly placed on the grid or they get cut off like they do on the elevators in M6. There's one place where you even used LITE3 on some 16 unit lifedefs when LITE5 would have fit perfectly.

One thing is driving me nuts. Why are all your BIGDOOR1 doors misaligned? You should be able to leave them with no offsets and they should be fine. That, and I think you went a little overboard on low light levels.

M7 was my favorite. It felt the most "confident", if that makes sense. And the trap on the long staircause made me lol. The opening of M8 also felt very "right", but it went downhill at that first baron encounter. I also assume that the end is the dark room that you get teleported into. You should make it all one sector and set the sector effect to 11. That way you don't need to run over the exit line, which I didn't know was there and couldn't get to anyway with all the monsters coming at me.

Overall...well, it feels very much like a WAD that would come from someone learning to map. It's very 1995. I can see where you tried to implement things I mentioned in my last review, which is interesting to see, but they almost feel tacked on. As if you just tossed them in to make me happy. The increase in quality from M1 to M7 is tangible, and so I have no doubt you will continue to improve. But you do have a ways to go. Keep working at it.