Knee Deep in ZDoom released

[june gloom]

GZ, by E1 feel i don't mean architecture. even detail snuff porn can have an E1 feel to it. it's about atmosphere, which KDIZD lacks.

how the hell can you have an episode 1 remake without recreating E1's tense, suspenseful atmosphere?

it doesn't feel like E1. it feels like something entirely different. how can you "relive the fear" when you're not really reliving anything?

i want to like this wad, i really do, especially since i've defended it so long. but i can't help but feel disillusioned.

[Snarboo]

Nobody is forcing you to like it, but I haven't seen this many people monging it up since...well, the last KDiZD thread. :p

[lupinx-Kassman]

Well..I enjoyed it.

[boris]

xbolt said:

It hasn't even been out for a full 24 hours yet, and there is already conflict! You guys don't waste any time, do you? :p

There's basically always conflicts on every wad. But most are just too unimportant to bother posting about it :P

Personally I really like it. Especially from the technical standpoint, how everything is working together, it's outstanding.

[Naked Snake]

I think I'll enjoy it more when that Map01 bug is fixed. I saved on map02 and I'll play the rest later.

[Graf Zahl]

Naked Snake said:

Noticed some bugs : looking at the AMMO box from a certain angle makes it clip into the floor in GZDoom

It's an unfortunate limitation of the engine. But everybody else wanted the rotated items in so I couldn't do anything about it.

I assume that 3d bridge was supposed to actually work in Map01.

Which bridge do you mean?

[Naked Snake]

The one above the busted walk-way. Also, why do stalagmites in Map03 stop the player's movement? Weird.

This release seems pretty buggy and TBH, a lot of the sprites (backpack comes to mind) just don't look good rotated. There's also a lot of odd texturing, and TBH, the gameplay is quite stale. The rifle is cool though (yeah, I cheated to get the guns.)

[kristus]

So much animosity.

[Graf Zahl]

Naked Snake said:

The one above the busted walk-way. Also, why do stalagmites in Map03 stop the player's movement? Weird.

Works fine for me. It seems you have infinitely tall actors on in the menu. That doesn't work of course.

This release seems pretty buggy and TBH, a lot of the sprites (backpack comes to mind) just don't look good rotated.

Don't tell me. Nobody listened when I said it...

[Isle]

dull

[zark]

First impressions (I'm about halfway through E1M1, I think - I got pretty bored.):

The majority of the item rotation sprites seem pretty poor, and superfluous. what was the problem with leaving them as one-angled sprites? Would've saved a lot of effort for little or no gain. I do happen to like the spinning keys though, that's a nice touch.

It doesn't feel like episode one. Now this is not really a bad thing, I wasn't expecting it to feel like it, but saying that it holds close to the atmosphere of the original is, in my opinion, very wrong. The texturing, coloured lighting, and just general feel of it doesn't match that of original episode one. But as I said it's not a bad thing.

The gameplay is a bit... meh. I don't really know how else to describe it, it's quite dull and doesn't really excite me so far. Hence why I've given up so soon - it just doesn't grab me. Maybe it'll improve as I play but it's just kinda stale, as someone said above.

I shall return when I've played it a bit more. One thing that bugs me about some people here is complaining that it's too hard - difficulty settings are there for a reason, if you can't do it on UV, go down one.

Technically it's quite nice though, lots of nice effects and stuff. Possibly may have to "borrow" some techniques for Tremor 2 ;)

[DooMAD]

Pretty much what I expected. It's a good technical achievement and shows what the engine is capable of when it's pushed, but like others, I got bored fairly quickly and stopped playing. As with other similar projects, there was just too much emphasis on how it looked and very little focus on the gameplay.

[Craigs]

I actually enjoyed it. It really felt like I was really discovering Doom again. When I loaded it up, I half expected to see the same old monsters with the same attacks. All the new features that were added guarenteed a new surprise around every corner, whether it was a place that wasn't in the original episode or a new monster. Yeah, it wasn't very scary, and it wasn't as atmospheric as RTC-3057 or Phocas Isle, but I still enjoyed it.

Lamneth: If you're gonna rant on about how "KDiZD IS A GAY WAYST OF TYME" can you please AT LEAST tell us why?

[Vader]

Graf Zahl said:

It's an unfortunate limitation of the engine. But everybody else wanted the rotated items in so I couldn't do anything about it.

That's not quite true!
I was always against those rotations too... actually i believe the only person who wanted them to stay in was Torm.

[Kristian Ronge]

I've played through the first two maps, and found the experience thoroughly enjoyable. Great work so far, guys!

[Naan]

First try on UV -- Died right after opening the yellow door in Map01.

My first impressions are okay. The intro rocks, and all that massive texturing works making each room different worth the wait.

If so much Doomworld people don't like this, it must be because KDiZD definitely feels too "modern" for them, the limit between "modern" and "classic" being representated by Agent Spork's Simplicity wad.

[Fredrik]

Nice technical accomplishment no doubt; very impressive architecture in some places. However, the textures destroy the looks of it. The beauty of the Doom E1 textures is that you only need a few carefully placed lines to make a great-looking room; they have never looked good in Extreme Detail Mode and never will. The new textures mostly suck. It would've been better with something like the Darkening E2 textures.

In any case, the problem is that the levels are too convoluted, with random new rooms and random detail inserted to the point that much flow and sense of structure gets lost. Due to the randomized detail found everywhere, too many rooms look and feel the same.

I've only played three of the maps, and idclip'ed through the rest. The gameplay seems pretty average, but it's certainly not bad (it's rather difficult to make a map with actually *bad* gameplay these days). The new boss battle and the ending were nice (but where does that crappy boss music come from? I think I've been exposed to it before).

In summary, this could've been much better; on the other hand, it's a nice demonstration of what can be done with ZDoom and good for inspiration. Thumbs up for novelty and technical achievement. If the idea was to recreate and enhance the atmosphere of Doom E1, though, I'm afraid it didn't live up to the hype, at least not for me.

[Tormentor667]

The GZDoom issues
First at all before you start complaining about how some places look bad or buggy in GZDoom, consider the fact that this for ZDoom and not primarily for GZDoom.

@Zahl/Vader - Well, I still think that most of the rotations really look cool and add to the atmosphere. There are surely a few that look ugly (some of the ammo boxes for example) but others look really cool :) Armor helmet, shells, radiatin suite, etc.)

For those who expected a "E1 remake", don't be disappointed now as we never said, we do a remake, it's more like a reinterpretation and I really suggest do not stop after MAP01 as this is (in my and maybe others eyes) only an introduction, mostly one of the weaker maps in KDiZD and you would really miss the real good ones that come after tha :) Try to play this without any backthoughts in mind that keep you thinking too much about the original E1, more like a complete new mapset thats based on the same planet ;P

[kristus]

Pretty much what Fredrik said, although I've played up and into Z1M3 (in HMP), I've not checked out the other maps. I've played it for one and a half hour so far, and now I got a headache. (which I'm not blaming KDIZD for)

A lot of the "details" look very newbieish, and don't work very well at all. Then there's other rooms that look really quite good. And then there's a bunch of stuff that falls in between.

Some sprites are really nice (the death of the Heretic golem monster's new sprites are very nice for instance), but there's also a very large quantity of sprites that looks really poor. The sitting dead guys for instance are a particular eye-sore (and quite funny looking). And while Scuba's sprites by themselves are really good, they don't blend well in here and stand out like a sore thumb.

What also bugged me was the apparent Quake2 influences. Like I kept hearing these Quake2 sounds, and several areas looked like they were taken straight out of Quake2.

Also, most of the new monsters feel rather superfluous to me, while I do enjoy looing at new sprites. The monsters themselves are generally just slightly changed imps or hellknights etc.

In some places the coronas look like they're supposed to. But most of the time it looks mostly like fuzzy balls.

There were some nice surprices in it that made me continue playing. But any actual E1 feel and atmosphere is long gone.

EDIT: Tormentor: If that's the case, then the slogan "relive.. stuff" was very poorly chosen.

[TawmDee]

I've played through the first two maps so far, just starting the third.
It's a good project but it simply did not deserve the hype that it was given. That's all I can say. Whilst not fantastiamazingorgasm, it's still a rather good wad. TOO MUCH DETAIL THO

Also, the midi music doesn't seem to fit if you ask me. Much better without music.

[Tormentor667]

kristus said:

EDIT: Tormentor: If that's the case, then the slogan "relive.. stuff" was very poorly chosen.

The fact is that we didn't want to exactly recreate E1 to a newer engine (ZDoom in this case), it is surely different from the original and it moves to a certain direction. And that's where some people start liking it and others not liking it, you know.

And concerning the consistency of the maps: At the very beginning, this compilation wasn't planned as it did came out right now, many mappers have been working on each map and in the final stages we tried to achieve a certain consistency with the help of our private forum and only a few core mappers left and in my eyes we did a good job with that as the overall consistency is quite good. Just play through all the maps to the end and maybe you will agree :)

[NiGHTMARE]

leileilol said:

Yes, because people who don't like cramped design are criminals

I guess you and the other authors of OpenArena must be the police, then. (I mean, tiny 90 degree corridors in DM? No thanks.)

[kristus]

I'm not saying it's not consistent, some things are a bit inconsistent. But that's mostly related to quality.

But since it's not supposed as you said, to recreate the atmosphere and feel of E1. It's a poorly chosen slogan, seeing as it is just what it suggest. And I've never gotten the impression that you've been aiming at anything else through these years you've spent developing this. That's all.

[Risen]

I'll be the first to admit it's not consistent throughout. It's a factor of having so many authors and letting them all have some artistic expression showing in the mod. In that regard it's bound to have differences.

Just look at the drastic stylistic differences between M1, M4, and M7. It's very obvious that different authors were involved there. Personally, I think these differences keep things fresh and interesting. You never know what new interpretation someone will have had on the next bit of otherwise familiar territory. If the design were too consistent throughout, I think the project would get fairly boring. It would just be a bunch of "Seen it all before" after M1.

[Vegeta]

I really like it, the new monsters are just perfect, and the maps (okey, map, since I only played through the first one), have top quality.

[NiGHTMARE]

It's interesting that some people are saying the large portions of the project looks too similar, yet other people are saying it isn't consistent enough. It's just more evidence that everyone has different opinions.

@Vegeta: doom.wad. It was tested with the Ultimate Doom, but I see no reason it shouldn't work with the origin three episode version of Doom 1.

[Afterglow]

How do you get to the red key area in the first level? I even looked in the editor but I can't just do a search on the forcefield linedef tag.

Edit: Blegh, found it. I don't know why the switch is so far away from the goal.

[Tormentor667]

Afterglow said:

Edit: Blegh, found it. I don't know why the switch is so far away from the goal.

The camtex is there for a reason ;)

[Dco16]

Poochie the rockin' dog is the new e1m8 boss in this.

I could write an epic novel on the things in KDiZD that are unnecessary and irritating.

1. Rotation sprites that look like screenshots of the WIP voxel models.
2. Quake 2 styled intermissions.
3. The stone imp.
4. The flashy black imp that moves around a lot.
5. The bullet casings from the pistol.
6. Any of the six or seven thousand ambient noises going on at any time in any place in any level.
7. Needs more detail.
8. The exit on e1m1. Is this Half-Life now? Do we take every other route besides the front door to get everywhere?

More when I play through the rest. Don't take all of this too seriously, I don't want to cause drama, I'm aiming more for making the authors cry.

Edit: I liked z1m8. It utilizes scripting in a cool and unique way and has a pretty good new boss battle.

[Risen]

Fiend said:

I'm aiming more for making the authors cry.

Precisely the reason we'll be ignoring you.