Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Maes

"Doom the way it was meant to be"

Recommended Posts

Some say this is merely a cheap catchphrase/slogan associated with Boom, some others say it's plain bullshit, as "Doom was meant to be as it already is in v1.9" etc. etc.

My personal opinion is that, forgetting all source port additions like scripting, free view, additional linedef tags and actions, higher resolutions, OpenGL etc. etc. the way "Doom was meant to be" could be summed up by the following:

  1. Removal of the hardcoded visualization limits, both the critical (visplane overflow) and non-critical ones (visible SSEGS limit, medusa effect etc.). Fixing those surely doesn't break the engine or change the gameplay, on the opposite, it would makes MORE maps compatible with the original .exe. Doom2p kind of fullfills this part of the deal, but it's still pretty limited. What's really needed is a dynamic or user-defined limits, capped only by actual memory limitations.
  2. Fixing of texture-height induced "tutti frutti" effect. Again, a limitation whose removal would only reap benefits (unless there's even ONE PWAD that relies on tutti-frutti to look "as intended"...)
  3. PROPER support for sprites in PWADS. OK, pre-v1.9 versions were utterly tragic because you had to screw your IWAD, but v1.9 did a half-assed job in enhancing this behavior, by requiring that PWAD with sprites replaced ALL sprite entries or NONE, so failing to elimitate DEUSF dependency. This is yet another thing that could be fixed, and would only bring advantages.
I believe those are things that would only bring advantages if implemented. I still need a good explanation why some of these limitations were *intentionally* coded in the engine. I can understand motivations like e.g. more static allocated memory associated with a higher number of visplanes or drawing SSEGS, but the sprites? And the texture height-induced tutti-frutti effect?

To be honest, Boom and mostly all other source ports do address these issues, but people complained of them altering the gameplay (again, I can't understand what's so hard in emulating tag 666 or 667 or 999 as needed: in E1M8 it causes this, in E2M8 it causes this etc. etc.) meh.

Share this post


Link to post

Maes said:
Some say this is merely a cheap catchphrase/slogan associated with Boom,

It's undoubtable that it is a catchphrase or slogan for Boom, but what is truly cheap is putting words in my mouth and calling me "some people". And from what I see Graf Zahl said it's "bullshit" in the sense that you could also say GZDoom is "Doom as was meant to be", if what GZDoom's enhancements and features add is what you want or prefer most.

The reason why the released versions of Doom can technically be considered "as meant to be" is just because that's how they were released, and the reason is all the circumstances that made it be the way they are, but that should not define preferences. No matter what you prefer, you'll have to be able to differentiate the game in itself, as released and in the box, from all the community based and optional modifications available, regardless of what you may like (and people tend to get so immersed in their favorite modifications that they think everyone will agree that they're the best thing for the game and that people who disagree are stupid). The most specific and absolute definition of the DOOM games is the main wads run by the engine shipped in the box. This is important even if you prefer some enhanced variant, because it helps keep you focused by being aware of the game's "roots" (even if you want to move away from them in any way), and keeps you out of conflicts with those that prefer the game itself and don't necessarily have to alter it much to like it.

Aside from that, the "meant to be" is in itself a slogan, whether applied to Boom, Doom, ZDoom, JDoom, or whatever, and can be applied to anything that is how you think the it should be. The "meaning" here being that it is meaningful (of true personal value) to you.

Fixing of texture-height induced "tutti frutti" effect. Again, a limitation whose removal would only reap benefits (unless there's even ONE PWAD that relies on tutti-frutti to look "as intended"...)

This fix causes visual incompatibilites; it causes minor tutti frutti effects in wads tested in some engines and not in a truly Doom compatible engine. This is where the "tested with" starts to become important (there are more important, not merely visual, reasons, of course), and that's where this discussion started, in the T/nC thread.

PROPER support for sprites in PWADS. OK, pre-v1.9 versions were utterly tragic because you had to screw your IWAD, but v1.9 did a half-assed job in enhancing this behavior, by requiring that PWAD with sprites replaced ALL sprite entries or NONE, so failing to elimitate DEUSF dependency. This is yet another thing that could be fixed, and would only bring advantages.

Actually, there's another (arguably better) way; using DeHackEd you can add individual sprites without having to complete the full set.

Note that the game was was not made specifically to be modded, so that the degree of ease in adding sprites falls into the "as is" category in regard to DOOM. DOOM was a bit liberal in allowing adventurous modders to modify it, but it wasn't released as a modding tool, and thus only did that conservatively.

I still need a good explanation why some of these limitations were *intentionally* coded in the engine.

Everything was coded intentionally, but intentions cannot be simplified; they merely had whatever reasons the coding, designing, and commercial context required.

To be honest, Boom and mostly all other source ports do address these issues, but people complained of them altering the gameplay

As noted in the reply to the the "tutti frutti" bug, they can also alter design requirements. In the end, all you did is try to find the limit removals that did not alter game play (or at least apparently), but ignored that Boom and other engines do much more than that, and the game play is altered to some degree, even when no new engine specific features are used in the levels played.

(again, I can't understand what's so hard in emulating tag 666 or 667 or 999 as needed: in E1M8 it causes this, in E2M8 it causes this etc. etc.)

In regard to...? These were coded for the IWADs and didn't need any extensions. The engine was slightly tweaked for The Ultimate DOOM making some differentiation; perhaps Romero was thinking about easing things for wadmakers, but mostly it was done to add the tags in E4M6 and E4M8.

Share this post


Link to post

@myk: I don't know if the infamous "bullshit" or "cheap catchphrase" quote should be attributed to you or someone else, so I didn't mention anyone specifically.

From your reply however, this thread seems to be going the wrong way all over again right from the start, as I mean one specific thing (how Doom could be made better without stepping into highly specific source-port territory, by fixing obvious bugs/shortcomings), and you're obviously thinking in very different terms...which I can't quite discern, honestly. So let's end this here.

@udderdude: never mind...

Share this post


Link to post

Maes said:
@myk: I don't know if the infamous "bullshit" or "cheap catchphrase" quote should be attributed to you or someone else, so I didn't mention anyone specifically.

It's quite clear your post is derived from that thread, and also very clear I referred to the slogan in a similar way, but not putting it down as "cheap", and that the other part refers to what Graf Zahl said (but you don't seem to have understood). What are you saying, anyway, that quoting people is wrong or unnecessary because maybe they themselves were paraphrasing someone else?

I mean one specific thing (how Doom could be made better without stepping into highly specific source-port territory, by fixing obvious bugs/shortcomings),

Then you completely messed up your attempt by bringing in the slogan. Don't blame me for your foolishness, or your inablitiy to even comprehend what I'm replying. It's clear that any limit removals or additional features can be seen as improvements, but the if and how depends on each user. And that is far from what you did initially by bringing up the slogan, which was basically to ignore those using something "beneath" Boom, in review requirements and such.

People aren't going to unilaterally agree on any enhancement or change, and even some that appear obviously and harmlessly better to some might seem a problem to others. Boom itself was produced with some internal tension on how to implement certain extensions or features (with much debate on what features to include), and natuarlly even from the onset people disagreed on what to make of the catchphrase, with some people disagreeing with it because Boom was too conservative, others, too modified.

Share this post


Link to post

...no offense myk, but I can see you're taking this too seriously for some reason, like if you had some (unspecified) interest to protect, or you have some (equally unspecified) personal grudge with me, of which I'm quite unaware.

In any case, I really don't know if you were the first person to diss Boom's slogan: it's the internet, probably somebody back in 1996/1997 said "Doom the way it was meant to be...yeah right".

Is this a continuation of some other thread? You may say yes, I may say no, someone else may say "maybe". You know how these things go: everyone is watering his mill and pushing his interests....whatever those may be...

Share this post


Link to post

Maes said:
...no offense myk, but I can see you're taking this too seriously for some reason, like if you had some (unspecified) interest to protect, or you have some (equally unspecified) personal grudge with me, of which I'm quite unaware.

Why not stick to the topic instead of trolling about my intent here? It sounds really curious when you're the one who takes things personally, suddenly withdrawing from a conversation as if someone were about to be kicked in the face, or by making assumptions about (psychological) stuff you don't even know. I merely make my case about subjects I'm interested in, putting it forth as clearly and substantially as this meduim permits, and have no problems in discussing anything in DOOM that interests me.

I really don't know if you were the first person to diss Boom's slogan

What, putting it into perspective as such and criticizing its use for other means is "dissing it" now?

Is this a continuation of some other thread?

It definitely is an offshoot because we dealt with the same subject (and rather recently), besides now it's linked here for reference.

Share this post


Link to post

Sticking to the topic...sorry, can't to it anymore. Maybe if we could somehow forget all these things, delete all posts after the first one and restart, but you know there's no turning back, and you know the thread is now tainted forever.

Plus, personally, I feel that I cannot continue this discussion so I call it quits, I yield, OK?

myk said:
by making assumptions about (psychological) stuff you don't even know.


Huh? Where did I do that on this topic? I mentioned "interests", but I'd think those as material or intellectual, in this context, not psychological.

Share this post


Link to post

Maes said:
delete all posts after the first one and restart,

Right on; maybe the dream people would come instead, posting what you felt was not in the wrong direction of the thread.

Just don't forget to keep taking them pills.

Where did I do that on this topic?

Don't be a sillywad; practically the whole paragraph was about guessing my intentions towards you in a personal way (which is as psychological as something can get); whether I had a grudge or something to hide, and it's not like I'm not quoting what I'm referring to.

Share this post


Link to post

You forget the "flat" limitation. If you make a wad with new flats, you have to insert all the iwad flats on it.
That and the DOOM 2 sky bug (when you beat an "episode" you need to save and reload to look at the next sky).

Share this post


Link to post

Vegeta said:
You forget the "flat" limitation. If you make a wad with new flats, you have to insert all the iwad flats on it.

Not really; if you use the FF_START and F_END markers the flats work straightaway.

Share this post


Link to post

Even ZDoom didn't fix TFEs, except for regularly tall textures (powers of two). But MBF and follow'ers did successfully, heheheh.

Here's something that bothers me. Original eighth levels had unclipped sounds -- which sounded everywhere, thus creating echo illusions, which worked fine for boss arenas, helping for some tension on the head(phones) of the player. Why had Boom (and ZDoom, Eternity...) removed it?!

Anyway, this thread sounds like a wishthread, not an argument between a regular and a moderator.

If you ask me, KDiZD is what Doom was meant to be, but I'd step further from fan obsession and mention the word Eternity. Eternity is Doom the way meant to be (I.M.O.). Prob'ly more than ZDoom, which is a powerhouse. Dunno, for me (not for anyone I'm sure), Eternity looks more fair, like I can try both old-school and new-school, unlike ZDoom, which compels lots of new schools.

Share this post


Link to post
printz said:

Here's something that bothers me. Original eighth levels had unclipped sounds -- which sounded everywhere, thus creating echo illusions, which worked fine for boss arenas, helping for some tension on the head(phones) of the player. Why had Boom (and ZDoom, Eternity...) removed it?!



In ZDoom it's a map flag so you can switch it on if you want it and off if you don't.

Share this post


Link to post

This looks like a relatively worthless conversation. Doom the way it was meant to be differs from person to person, and all of us are either right in our beliefs on the subject, or all of us are wrong on our beliefs. There is no "Doom the way it was meant to be," there is Doom the way id made it, doom the way we'd like it to be, and doom the way ports have made it.

As far as a single wad being doom the way it was meant to be, I'd like to point you to DOOM.WAD before you start naming any crowd favourites, touting those as the way it was meant to be.

In fact, my thoughts as posted on this matter could be entirely different than yours, and we'd both be right (or wrong).

Share this post


Link to post

I think DOOM magic was an accident, perhaps it was meant to be diferent, but the result ended up being better. Perhaps it was meant to be with more complex behaviors and map effects, all of them should probably reduce the replay value.
And if the original DOOM was more like a modern port, perhaps source ports wouldn't be developed so much. I may be wrong, but I think DOOM it's perfect as it is, with its bugs, its simplicity, it consistent yet simple story, and all it's glory.

For me DOOM it's like that super formula a scientist only find by chance.

Share this post


Link to post

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. - Saint-Exupéry

Share this post


Link to post
printz said:

Doom is Wolf3d with height and angle variation.

And Doom 3 is Doom just with a few more height and angle variation.

Share this post


Link to post

There's more to it. Quake is true-3d easily modded Doom. Quake 2 is Quake with more ideas. Quake 3 is Quake for deathmatchin'. Doom 3 is Doom with tons of sounds and cool images.

Share this post


Link to post
printz said:

Even ZDoom didn't fix TFEs, except for regularly tall textures (powers of two). But MBF and follow'ers did successfully, heheheh.

Here's something that bothers me. Original eighth levels had unclipped sounds -- which sounded everywhere, thus creating echo illusions, which worked fine for boss arenas, helping for some tension on the head(phones) of the player. Why had Boom (and ZDoom, Eternity...) removed it?!

Anyway, this thread sounds like a wishthread, not an argument between a regular and a moderator.

If you ask me, KDiZD is what Doom was meant to be, but I'd step further from fan obsession and mention the word Eternity. Eternity is Doom the way meant to be (I.M.O.). Prob'ly more than ZDoom, which is a powerhouse. Dunno, for me (not for anyone I'm sure), Eternity looks more fair, like I can try both old-school and new-school, unlike ZDoom, which compels lots of new schools.


Actually this feature was lost from BOOM somehow due to the muddied up sound engine code. I was never even aware of this myself until fraggle found it as an issue while working on Chocolate Doom. We've not added support for it (or the pre-v1.9 666 tag behavior) to EE yet because we have a big backlog of compatibility tweaks to implement, and there are also impending changes to the compatibility system as a whole because we are running out of slots in the comp flags array.

I intend to make a large-scale sweep of the prboom-plus source in the near future and tackle everything we are missing at once. Hopefully this will increase enjoyment of the engine for purists.

Thanks for using the port ;)

Share this post


Link to post
printz said:

There's more to it. Quake is true-3d easily modded Doom. Quake 2 is Quake with more ideas. Quake 3 is Quake for deathmatchin'. Doom 3 is Doom with tons of sounds and cool images.


But are they black disk with egg on pictures?

Share this post


Link to post
Quasar said:

Thanks for using the port ;)

What's left is to steal the M.I.D.I. instrument sounds from Doom.exe. But that's theft. I think they couldn't resolve copyrights about sounds, neither for Doom nor Heretic.

Share this post


Link to post
printz said:

What's left is to steal the M.I.D.I. instrument sounds from Doom.exe. But that's theft. I think they couldn't resolve copyrights about sounds, neither for Doom nor Heretic.


The sound a midi instrument makes depends entirely on the sound card you have, one sound card's midi sounds slightly (or possibly completely) different to another. There's soundfonts and shit you can use too. There are no samples are anything in the exe.

Share this post


Link to post

He probably meant the FM timbres used for Adlib, Sound Blaster, PAS16 and all cards with an OPL2 or OPL3 chip in general. Doom was unique also in having its own set of FM midi timbres (patches is not the proper term in this case) which sounded better than playing that same midi file under e.g. Windows with stock FM drivers. I'm not sure if those are hardcoded into the .exe or are a lump in Doom/Doom2.wad though.

There's a good AdLib plugin (AdPlug) for Winamp that supports a lot of exotic formats, if it could be extended to use Doom's timbres somehow then it would play any MUS and MIDI file almost exactly like DOOM would play it, through the OPL chips.

True, when you set Doom to use "General MIDI" for playback, it doesn't use its own FM timbres (even with a soundcard having FM synthesis) but just sends MIDI signals to whatever device you have configured. In that case, even Adlib/SB will use some stock timbres, not Doom's.

Share this post


Link to post

the GENMIDI.IBK lump in the wad is responsible for defining the instruments. I don't know why people don't think that lump exists in there but it's there. It is generated by Voyetra Sequencer.

The current state of OPL2/3 emulation generally sucks and is in dying need of a rewrite.

Share this post


Link to post

OPL2/3 in general sucks because it was not developed by musicians. The filter parameters you can adjust are near to nothing. You can do some SFX, but when it comes to realistic music, no way. Especially on heavy metal and orchestral cues like Doom uses. If Adlib had used a few SID chips instead back then, we would have got much better synthesizer sounds in those DOS days.

Btw. old DOS game MIDI's are usually designed on either a Roland MT-32 or a Roland Sound Canvas. If you're really interested in getting the best sound out of old DOS games, you better get those both.

Share this post


Link to post

LogicDeLuxe said:
OPL2/3 in general sucks because it was not developed by musicians.

He's saying the emulation is not good. I actually like using the OPL3 music regardless of whether it can truly be considered good, at this point. I do use TiMidity for the SDL based engines, which is the same as using a GUS card, which is also certainly a good choice with a good set of patches. But hearing Bobby's CD, his MP3s from MP3.com, and the Roland MP2s, I don't really agree the music always sounds better "as intended", especially in the game. More realistic as music, yes, with more musical potential, perhaps, but in the game, not necessarily better. The OPL3 chip may sound artificial or crappier, but it also has a neat vibe and a unique sound.

Share this post


Link to post

Sounds similar to arguing weather vinyl produces a "true" sound, since it makes its own effect (and a lot of music was made tailored to the sound of vinyl).

Share this post


Link to post
myk said:

The OPL3 chip may sound artificial or crappier, but it also has a neat vibe and a unique sound.

Unique as in used by several gaming consoles, arcades and pinball machines. Hard to avoid that cheap sound. Not exactly my idea of unique.

MikeRS said:

Sounds similar to arguing weather vinyl produces a "true" sound, since it makes its own effect (and a lot of music was made tailored to the sound of vinyl).

Though that's a matter of mastering, not composing. There usually are different masters for vinyl, CD and MC. Which one has the best master depends on the individual album. There is no general rule despite all the technical data or preferance.

A game soundtrack on the other hand is rarely made for more than one synthesizer or wavetable. They are usually composed on one and converted to the others. One rare exception, I'm aware of, is the Monkey Island 2 title theme, which has an OPL2 optimized version along with the usual MT-32 soundtrack.

Share this post


Link to post
LogicDeLuxe said:

Unique as in used by several gaming consoles, arcades and pinball machines. Hard to avoid that cheap sound.


but wavetable MIDI is overrated and loses novelty quickly. You'll get all wavetable envy in the first year yes but it'll grow off you.

There are people that are still fond of the classic OPL2/3 FM synth, me included. Have fun in your modern tech, hollywood orchestral sounding music playlist but i'm sticking with OPL3.

Did you grow up on the Microsoft Synthesizer w/ GM.DLS by any chance?

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
×