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kristus

Theology: Why God and Hell can not coexist.

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Found this little blog post when I did a image search for Hell.
It writes an argument about why God and Hell can't coexist.

I found it to have a bit of funny/intresting idea.

http://inserttitleblog.com/?p=52

But any God that requires you to worship it, can't be benevolent.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard somewhere that Hell was actually a prison where Lucifer and his Comrade Angels were sent to...but this whole "being sent to Heaven or Hell" is totally a Christian invention used to scare people into submission back during the Middle Ages and even today...

but I agree that we bow down to no Demiurge and we humans (but not the Government) are the true masters of this world...

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I new some Jehovah Witnesses once who told me the same thing. For them, Hell is known as Sheol, and is a place of something like eternal sleep. They had the same argument that a benevolent god wouldn't let his creations suffer for eternity, so Sheol became a place of non-existence.

Is Hell ever mentioned in the Bible? I can't remember.

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I think the idea of normal christians, rather than "fire and brimstone" preachers who take god to be some kind of dictator or king who has to pleased or he'll personally and brutally punish them, is that hell is a place where you are "seperated from god". Ie on earth you have 50% of god, and you can embrace it or ignore it, and when you die you either go to heaven and have 100% of god, or hell where there is 0% of god, and hence various evils taking place. So you effectively "get what you choose" rather than god "punishing" you by sending you to hell

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It can coexist because preachers come up with ways to bullshit explain it. If preachers wanted to, they could make Jesus and Bizarro Jesus a.k.a. Antichristman coexist as sworn enemies in the pursuit of religion.

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Well if the devil had existed as long as god has then it makes perfect sense that they can coexist. But in terms of believing that, well, thats a different story.

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Does it really seem right to send someone to burn for eternity for something he did during a single lifetime? I doubt it would be just to do that, even Hitler would not deserve more than a 1000 years in hell or
so.

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hardcore_gamer said:

Does it really seem right to send someone to burn for eternity for something he did during a single lifetime? I doubt it would be just to do that, even Hitler would not deserve more than a 1000 years in hell or
so.


yeah, he only ordered the death 6 million jews, no one cares about them, they were going to hell anyways, right?

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I've not read a more insipid article in some time. Good show.

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deathbringer said:

Ie on earth you have 50% of god, and you can embrace it or ignore it, and when you die you either go to heaven and have 100% of god, or hell where there is 0% of god, and hence various evils taking place.

It's 35%, and people who say the wrong number will burn in hell.

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IIRC the Catholics invented Hell. Most people who believe in a fire-and-brimstone Hell don't believe in a benevolent God. They believe God is some cruel deity that you BETTER worship or else.

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God did not create us, we created God. So therefore this whole idea of Heaven and Hell is preconceived by a man with too much time on his hands. It was a wonderful book like Lord of the Rings taken horribly wrong.

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Since when is God benevolent? Have you ever actually read the bible or are you just posting trash?

Also this dude makes some funny comments, like this one!

"Hell is a tool which was created by followers of a certain religious ideal to get people to believe what they believe from fear of eternal suffering. This is partly why hell is portrayed as so unimaginably terrible; if it were real and plausible, simply being slightly less pleasurable than heaven would be enough to convince most people to behave morally."

Why? If people were only going to a slightly worse place in the afterlife why wouldn't they simply enjoy their lives to the fullest on earth and pack it full of sin? I really don't see his logic. The worst a consequence is, the more deterred you will be to take that path

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The benevolent one is Christ; the combination of the unforgiving Yahweh and the redeeming Christ makes for a pretty sadomasochistic ordeal.

Danarchy said:
IIRC the Catholics invented Hell.

The word Hell is akin to Hel, the daughter of Loki, which was also what the place she ruled was called, a nasty place of torture. It's similar to the Greek Hades, or, more precisely, the deep Tartarus (also cold place of endless torture). Virgil, a Roman who lived a bit before Christ was born, depicted Tartarus as a fiery place, as an evident allusion to volcanic activity (which the Romans were quite familiar with, as we know from Pompeii's fate). Christianity is, after all a Biblical sect for Arians, who generally believed in hellish places of different sorts.

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Every person that I've met during my life, that will be worth spending eternity with, has a VIP ticket to hell.

Why would I want to be in heaven, all alone, with a shitty seat?

In that case, if God is good, he'll send me to hell.
Otherwise, he'll punish me by sending me to heaven...

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Alboroto said:

Every person that I've met during my life, that will be worth spending eternity with, has a VIP ticket to hell.

Why would I want to be in heaven, all alone, with a shitty seat?

In that case, if God is good, he'll send me to hell.
Otherwise, he'll punish me by sending me to heaven...

Actually according to some, the only one allowed to sit in Heaven is God (some also purport that the angel Metatron from the non-canonical Book of Enoch, the so-called scribe of Heaven, is also accorded this privelege only in order to perform his duties).

Everybody else has to stand for eternity proclaiming "Holy holy holy is the Lord of Hosts". Yeah, I dunno about you, but standing up forever doesn't sound like my kinda party.

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Steeveeo said:

wouldnt it be ironic if this thread was sent to post hell?

Don't give god any ideas...

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Quasar said:

Everybody else has to stand for eternity

I can't wait for that day, Quasar!

I'd prefer singing and cookies, to eternal slavery in hell, though.

Alboroto said:

Every person that I've met during my life, that will be worth spending eternity with, has a VIP ticket to hell.

Ditto.

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myk said:

The word Hell is akin to Hel, the daughter of Loki, which was also what the place she ruled was called, a nasty place of torture. It's similar to the Greek Hades, or, more precisely, the deep Tartarus (also cold place of endless torture). Virgil, a Roman who lived a bit before Christ was born, depicted Tartarus as a fiery place, as an evident allusion to volcanic activity (which the Romans were quite familiar with, as we know from Pompeii's fate). Christianity is, after all a Biblical sect for Arians, who generally believed in hellish places of different sorts.

Well okay, appropriated by the Catholics then. Like they did everything else. They pretty much took an Asiatic religion, filled it with European mythology so it would appeal to the masses, and thus created what most think of as Christianity.

This debate is pretty much the reason Unitarianism was created. The founder was disenfranchised with Christian dogma and had a dream where he saw everyone going to Hell and very few going to Heaven because no one could really follow all the dogma. So he decided to found a religion where people find their own paths to salvation.

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Ralphis said:

If people were only going to a slightly worse place in the afterlife why wouldn't they simply enjoy their lives to the fullest on earth and pack it full of sin? I really don't see his logic.

Harold Ramis was once talking about a treatment for Ghostbusters 3 he and Akroyd wrote. In the script, the Ghostbusters went to Hell... but Hell was exactly like real life... except shittier. The worst parts of everyday life were amplified. Everyone spoke a different language, there was always traffic... in the end, not fire and brimstone, just a pain in the ass. When I read that, I thought it was the greatest Hell ever conceived.

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Honestly, a hell that's everything you hate and a heaven that's everything you want seems to be far more logical than fire and brimstone vs. bliss in the clouds.

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Scuba Steve said:

Harold Ramis was once talking about a treatment for Ghostbusters 3 he and Akroyd wrote. In the script, the Ghostbusters went to Hell... but Hell was exactly like real life... except shittier. The worst parts of everyday life were amplified. Everyone spoke a different language, there was always traffic... in the end, not fire and brimstone, just a pain in the ass. When I read that, I thought it was the greatest Hell ever conceived.

That's the most awesome vision of Hell I've ever seen.

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The book of Enoch... That sound way too much like Eunuch.
I don't want to spend etetnity in a place depicted by some dickless guy.

Ok, that was a bad pun.

Anyway... Sometimes I think that losing my brother and my grandfather in a car accident was my personal hell. Then, when my son was born, I experienced heaven.
Heaven and hell are not places, they are states of mind that we visit through out all our life.

This theory makes me live to the most every experience I have, bacause it's unique, because I'm not "saving points" for the afeterlife.

Btw, I believe that after i die, my soul/mind/spark/chip/what-ever-you-call-it will be placed in another living being, then "CMD Format Alboroto" will take place.

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Scuba Steve said:

When I read that, I thought it was the greatest Hell ever conceived.

That's no doubt an interesting version of Hell, and one I'd hate to be in. But my "favorite" (seems odd calling it that) version of Hell has been the one that some Buddhist schools believe in. Not all of them do, and their individual descriptions of it vary, but I do remember hearing about this one specifically when I was in a Japanese Religions class in Japan.

In my own study of Buddhism, I've found/believe that Hell is more of a mental state that you can get yourself into, similar (but much worse) than the hungry ghost realm. I've seen people beat themselves up pretty damned bad before.

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Ralphis said:

Since when is God benevolent? Have you ever actually read the bible or are you just posting trash?


some bible verses for evidence

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things."-Isa. 45:7,
"God is a consuming fire."-Heb. 12:29,
"Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"-Amos. 3:6,
"...the evil Spirit from God came upon Saul..."-1 Sam. 18:10.



this is the word of god, mind you. the adversary, know as satan, was pretty much a henchman of god, delivering, on his orders, tortures and temtations. look at the book of job. god and satan talk about testing this pious man, and god gives satan permission to torment him and his family doin anything short of causing death.

as myk said jesus is the inclusive, benevolent side of god. thru him now all people, not just the jewish people, can come to god. this is where the "free will" that god gave us comes in. we are given the choice to accept christ and go to heaven or deny him and go to hell.

the bible is a very contradictory book. in the revelation of john it says that on judgement day the earth and sea will give up it's dead and those that are "saved" will be taken to heaven. those who were not will be cast in to the lake of fire. this would imply that when we die we stay put until called before god in judgement.

on the other side is the concept of "the harrowing of hell" in which jesus, after his death and before his ressurection, descends in to hell and releases the righteous patriarchs so that they may ascend in to the newly opened gates of heaven. so before jesus no one went to heaven because it was closed due to the fall of adam and eve, but now that jesus is around, people can get in to heaven.

one of the things about the development of christianity is that it adapted to fit in with the cultures it encountered. the jewish sheol, which was a place of nothingness, where the fallen one (not satan) and his minions were sent. that was where those who did not follow god's will were sent. as christanity developed, greek and roman influence came in to play and the concept of hell and satan as the adversary of god, not his toadie, came about. as the religion spread to more pagan nations it took on aspects of those peoples cultures. this is how the persecuted, outlaw cult of christianity became the perverted, powerhouse, beast with many heads. that, coupled by the vauge, pick-and-choose nature of the bible leads to much confusion on what god is and what happens when we die.

so, to sum up, fuck the concept of god, jesus, and satan, have a good time in life, do good things, and die well. all the other crap is just bullshit that you shouldn't even waste time on... like i just did.

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Ralphis said:

Why? If people were only going to a slightly worse place in the afterlife why wouldn't they simply enjoy their lives to the fullest on earth and pack it full of sin? I really don't see his logic. The worst a consequence is, the more deterred you will be to take that path


Well considering that eternity is infinitely longer than natural life, no matter how minuscule the difference is it would still be perfectly logical to spend your life guaranteeing that you'd get into the slightly better place.

DJ_Haruko said:

That's no doubt an interesting version of Hell, and one I'd hate to be in. But my "favorite" (seems odd calling it that) version of Hell has been the one that some Buddhist schools believe in.


That hell for some reason sounds to me like it was designed by the guys who came up with Mortal Kombat.

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Danarchy said:
They pretty much took an Asiatic religion, filled it with European mythology so it would appeal to the masses, and thus created what most think of as Christianity.

Any religion has that to a degree because it's part of culture, which is heterogeneous, but Christiany has a strong evangelical aspect that mixes cultures (with an overt aim to spread). It has to do more with adapting to different traditions and their combinations (i.e., that "free will" VileSlay mentioned; take the word of the saviour or ignore it and go to hell), rather than some dudes specifically conspiring to offer something "for the masses".

This debate is pretty much the reason Unitarianism was created. The founder was disenfranchised with Christian dogma and had a dream where he saw everyone going to Hell and very few going to Heaven because no one could really follow all the dogma. So he decided to found a religion where people find their own paths to salvation.

That's basically a continuation of the Protestant reform. Catholicism was developed mostly during the late Roman period and the Middle Ages, and has aspects that show that, while Protestanism is an adaptation that veers toward the later "market economy". Many aspects of religious tradition are privatized or dismantled to fit the varied and practical necessities of modern life.

Protestantish ideology is often sprinkled into (Hollywood style) entertainment, especially into science fiction, historical drama, fantasy, and horror. Star Wars is an easy example, with the Imperial forces kind of resembling the Catholic Church, and the "good guys" going from freedom and similar clichéd "good stuff".

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