why all the kdizd hate?

[Frankdude]

When I first played kdizd it brought back great memories.It was a knee-deep in the dead for a new generation and a new look at an old favorite.

Yet I hear people say it to over detailed or too hard.
I have responses for these people.It is for zdoom,which is usually used for expansive detail.Also when I first played doom shareware I had never seen a fps so it was hard and recreating that hardness is tough.I think the kdizd team did a great job.

[Mithral_Demon]

I hate it's over detail cause it distracts me, and there not enough monsters per level if it was atleast bigger...And the Phobos Anomaly boss fight sucked ass...The monster looked err..Annoying much.

[Icarus]

The secrets are far too secrets. I had to warp to Z1M9 to get to play it, and the levels are far too long for E1. There are lots of seemingly dead ends I kept hitting.

Really nicely made, the detail didn't bug me too much (after the third room of M1), but its just really frustrating.

[Frankdude]

Mithral_Demon

Phobos Anomaly boss monster looked like chthon from quake.
Right?

[hardcore_gamer]

Here is a very plain and a simple reason: IT ISN'T FUN!!!!!!!!!!

[fraggle]

It's a reaction to all of the hype and drama before its release.

[printz]

@Frankdude: yes the boss looks like Chthon. Similar but higher in class ;)

GOOD WORK FRANKDUDE FOR SUPPORTING KDiZD!

Note: KDiZD, like most big Doom projects really, has its fans and anti-fans. It's not like most people hate it. Even if most, that's enough answer for aspirants to do better next time.

I find these reasons to dislike KDiZD to be prejudgements:

• not being up to its dumb hype. Stupid things AND LIES can happen while something is under production but NOT RELEASED, therefore invisible and unproven to the audience. It only becomes official when out. Hype has to be forgotten, because anyone can dream and shout about what he thinks he's creating, but get constrained by reality -- that's like hyper's fate, maybe I'm generalizing.
  
• having too much detail. Detail doesn't hurt gameplay in any way, just as it doesn't enhance it. It does work for artistic purpose.
  
• having too long levels. I don't see the worry as long as saving a game works, and there's more potential for tension when not saving.
  
• using new monsters. They add to the challenge, scare factor and population variety.
  
• getting lost. It's enough to be alert for switches and remotely opened doors, and you won't get lost. There's no point arguing about not finding the secrets easily. There's no need to find the secret levels in order to finish the game.
  
• steep ammo start. Be watchful with ammo, only pistol Formers and Normal Imps and only shotgun Shades. There's no serious need swearing over that.
  

The kdizd.pk3 is very hard to replay starting at an arbitrary level. I easily died at Z1M8 when those fliers by the key near the Terran Valkyrie-like sounds in Hell ambushed me but I only had a few shells left. That said, I wasn't able to finish Z1M8 from scratch, but from a few other posters, I guess KDiZD has the problem of item balance later on, and that it lacks the Rifle in a critical level (the boss' place), is also bad. I read that you need but don't get the Rifle anywhere in Z1M8 -- but do find ammo -- and that that level has coop problems too.

[alexz721]

I was indifferent to it. I enjoyed playing it, but I don't think I'd play it again.

[EANB]

printz said:

having too much detail. Detail doesn't hurt gameplay in any way, just as it doesn't enhance it. It does work for artistic purpose.

Actually, in Kdizd detail does get in the way of gameplay. Many a time were monsters stuck in walls and little bits jutting out of places. It also makes things look cramped, and not all of it is good looking.

using new monsters. They add to the challenge, scare factor and population variety.

You dont need five different types of imps and demons for variety.

I was indifferent to it. I enjoyed playing it, but I don't think I'd play it again.

Same here. Although I did find E1M8 to be really fun, and the lighting was nice.

[printz]

EANB said:

Actually, in Kdizd detail does get in the way of gameplay. Many a time were monsters stuck in walls and little bits jutting out of places. It also makes things look cramped, and not all of it is good looking.

Design oversights like those can also happen in bare rooms. I admit it's cramped, tho I think cramped means less player friendly not really worse. Whether it's good looking is something of taste, unless the author wants to make us specifically swear.

You dont need five different types of imps and demons for variety.

They expand the Baron-Knight of Hell saga ;) The new Imps are nastier in attacks but have enough extra health. IMO, why not meet weird subspecies with weird attacks. I accept that the thorny Demons are worthless, because they are as easy to kill (by melee) as their traditional cousins. Same for the Satyrs who could comfortably be replaced with bog Demons. Stone Imps are better because their damage is scary ^_^ But coal Imps, red devils and switch-head decoration-shields are fine by me. New looks, new attacks and yeah, new tactics.

[YMB]

I support kehdizzed (KDiZD). Personally I think the extra enemies fit well with the Doom vibe.
Different Lost Soul classes would have been cool.

[DaniJ]

If I were to consider kdizd as a project seperate to the concept that inspired it; I would say that I quite enjoyed it and it was fairly interesting to play.

However, if I consider it within the concept it was designed around; I have to say that IMO it failed on pretty much every level. It didn't feel/look/play anything like DOOM episode 1. This, I think is one reason behind why so many people are "hate'in" on it as it wasn't what we were led to believe.

[hardcore_gamer]

printz said:

getting lost. It's enough to be alert for switches and remotely opened doors, and you won't get lost

The levels are huge and finding all of those switches with load of detail all around them is hard. I found my self wandering all over the place looking for anything that might look like buttons!

[myk]

DaniJ said:
This, I think is one reason behind why so many people are "hate'in" on it as it wasn't what we were led to believe.

Well, many people already felt they weren't going to like it much from the descriptions, the screen shots, and then, the leak. Like RTC, Action, and HR2 it was much talked about during development, but unlike them, it didn't cater clearly towards a certain audience or "specialty" and attracted a more general audience, much of which was not impressed either because it didn't really bring anything new, or because compared to many other wads it wasn't anything too hot to play: It is neither brilliant in design, nor in gameplay.

[ReX]

Frankdude said:

why all the kdizd hate?

I believe that much of the so-called "kdizd hate" springs from misplaced ego and an opposition to the initial hype. There are a great many people who played and enjoyed the game, but it is the detractors who seem to get the most attention. Play the game without any of the attendant hype, and it emerges as an engaging variation on Episode I. If you look past the fact that it's an E1 replacement, it is a "total conversion" that is unmatched in scope and magnitude by almost every TC made in recent years.

Does it have scope for improvement? Sure it does. But that does not mean that an unbiased player cannot derive great pleasure from playing the game.

[myk]

ReX said:
If you look past the fact that it's an E1 replacement, it is a "total conversion" that is unmatched in scope and magnitude by almost every TC made in recent years.

Maybe, but ironically, I don't even recall any TCs in recent years. Additionally, effort and excellence are not synonymous.

But seriously, what's with the "anti-KDiZD" conspiracy theories blaming some sort of bias for the criticism? Is deathz0r that powerful?

The hype issue had more or less died after the leak and some arguments that had ocurred back then, and many people were quite clear in saying if they were affected by that hype, it in their minireviews. It's not something that worked in an obscure way. Among those people, some said it wasn't a bad addon overall but by no means warranted the hype, others said they recalled the hype and found a mediocre result.

[Koko Ricky]

Although I'm much more into Doom than the average fan I bump into (who are almost always casual fans with little interest in the mod community), I haven't kept up with the drama over KZIzD. However, I can't deny that over-hyping, along with the "it's just about done" status seeming to last for months, were big blows to the mod because to many it generated a negative response long before it was released. I haven't beaten the whole thing yet, but I played it for several solid hours and I completely understand the gameplay issues many have complained about. Getting lost, the feeling that the levels were overwhelmingly large, an unusual attempt to show items from multiple angles, ocassionally steep ammo and somewhat illogical key fetching are all elements that either hinder gameplay or just bother many players. I feel the project was put together with enough care, though, that I can still have a lot of fun playing. As for over-detail, it's like any form of art. A lack of balance can take away from something that is otherwise great, and the overdetailing of mods like KZiZD can come off as superficial more so than realistic or atmospheric.

[Icarus]

It's safe to say there is room for improvement, but it was pretty fun. Yes, Its frustrating, but playing in the same time period as my mate did add to the fun, IMing him asking where he had got to or asking each other for hints if we were stuck - That was the most fun part of the game, the 'friendlier', more community atmosphere the game had being an E1 remake.
[/sentimental]
Plus, all the Easter eggs I found made me grin :)

If all this criticism adds up to anything, at least if there is a Shores of Hell remake, it can (mostly) be taken on board for the good of the project.

[Mithral_Demon]

If it had atleast improvement of how many monsters there are in it, I'd say it'd be great, and wouldn't worry of Detail, but sadly...Theres not enough.

[Graf Zahl]

GoatLord said:

along with the "it's just about done" status seeming to last for months, were big blows to the mod because to many it generated a negative response long before it was released.

Actually it was 'just about done' for that long - but with only one mapper left to do the finishing touches it was inevitable that that phase took half a year...


As for the hate, most was due to the fact that far too many people had made up their mind long before it was released and couldn't back down once it was released without losing face.

[Vitek]

KDIZD is not about gameplay but architectural madness. Great loss of time and efforts. That's the way I see it.

[Deeforce]

I like KDiZD, because of the detail! The gameplay is good too I think.

[Jodwin]

Looking back at kdizd, the good:
-large levels
-non-linearity in certain levels (Z1M3, Z1M4...)

The bad:
-in some levels, the switch/key hunt was too confusing (Z1M3!!! I had to use a level editor in that one...)
-some detail was too much, but not all of it

The ok:
-gameplay
-difficulty (except the end of Z1M8, AMMO!!!)
-some of the new monsters

The I_don't_care:
-anything else

Did it live up to the hype? Not even close. Do I care? No, because it really is a good wad, just of a slightly different style than what it was hyped to be like.

[Enjay]

Frankdude said:

why all the kdizd hate?

If it is genuine hate, then it's because people are crap. What's to hate? It's a level set for a 14 year old game that you got for free and which you don't have to play if you don't want to.

If you like it (and I do) great, enjoy it. If you don't like it, give some positive criticism and move on. Don't get all bent out of shape over it. You haven't been seriously inconvenienced by it. Just get on with your life (assuming the person in question has one). Don't sit and fester over something you downloaded, which was provided for free and for fun but, oh woes me, didn't suit your tastes. Stop throwing your teddy out of the pram, suck that pouting lip back in and just grow up!

As for the reaction to the hype and drama. Again, get over it. All that happened a year or more ago. Just fucking let it go.

[Larzuk]

Ill jsut go with a somple answer. You cant please everyone with any wad. Also many people prefere game types a certain way, level size, monster placment, skill, etc. Basically it jsut all goes down to their opinion. No one is right or wrong with an opinion anyways...

As for hype, I never really figured out why people get into a hype anyways...

[myk]

Enjay said:
If you like it (and I do) great, enjoy it.

In part, at least, threads like this one come up when that fails, by people who can't tolerate or understand that others may not have enjoyed something they liked, either at all or to the degree that they did.

Let's say you have 100 different comments saying why people didn't like a project in one way or another, and after reading them, a person comes along and says, but why didn't you like it?

[Vader]

Having worked on KDiZD myself, I don't really care that there're quite a lot of people who dislike it for whatever reason.

However, I'm pretty much disappointed that the new monster are generally disliked... were the countless hours of sprite drawing a waste of time?
I really thought this would be one of the strong points of the project... guess I was wrong :(

[deathbringer]

Not another fucking thread about this

[myk]

Vader said:
I really thought this would be one of the strong points of the project... guess I was wrong :(

The bruiser guys stood out most, being pretty impressive, and fit best in the DOOM concept, and the mechanic demons were neat. Some of the others would probably be cool in a TC melding more easily with their design/style (perhaps something more gothic, for many of them).

[Enjay]

I thought most of the monsters were pretty good. I've never been a fan of the Dark Imps but the soul harvesters, shadows, bruisers, mechanical demons, satyr, chaingunner... are all great monsters and are already finding their way into other mods.

[edit] Heh, I just noticed my modofied title. :) [/edit]