why all the kdizd hate?

[Jodwin]

Vader said:

However, I'm pretty much disappointed that the new monster are generally disliked... were the countless hours of sprite drawing a waste of time?
I really thought this would be one of the strong points of the project... guess I was wrong :(

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the new monsters was that they were used too much. New monsters are generally speaking neat, but they should be used sparingly to keep them more special.

That, and their graphical style clashed badly with the original Doom monsters.

[YMB]

Jodwin said:

That, and their graphical style clashed badly with the original Doom monsters.

I disagree. They kind of reminded me of a Doom alpha version, for some reason.

[Jodwin]

yomoneyboat said:

I disagree. They kind of reminded me of a Doom alpha version, for some reason.

Well I mostly mean that their shading was too smooth, next to the more pixelated original monsters they look like they were ripped from a completely different game.

[YMB]

Those Satyrs were stupid, I must say. They looked out of place and posed NO threat!

[Erp]

When it was first released, I was actually afraid to say how much I didn't like it, cus the zdoom zealots are always on the prowl. But at last I can say I do not like it and I really wanted to. I hate running around looking for hidden switches, the levels are either too easy on low skill levels, or too cramped on UV.

[alexz721]

For the record, I liked most of the new monsters.

[kristus]

My favorit part of KDIZD was the new monster sprites. (well most of them. There were some that were laughable, like that BOH-Alpha Lost soul mix, and the absolutely final boss was just bad from the design to the execution)
There were also some architecture that was rather nice. I quite liked E1M9.

But the project as a whole were rather pretentious and the level design was weak, the new monster sprites while monsters were well visually designed, they clashed with the style of the original Doom monsters, and they didn't really have anything new to add. Making them rather pointless.

I found KDIZD intresting enough to warrant me continuing playing it for the first half of the maps. Then I just kept going cause I wanted to see what had been done with my favorit map of all, E1M7. I didn't like it.

The general level design was pretty weak. It was mostly done in the same trite unaestetic manner that so many maps are being done today.
Clashing textures, details that does nothing but garble the design, stuff like that.

Then there were also some areas that looked really quite nice.

Making it a E1 revision was a good way to get people's attention. But it was a bad decision since it dealt with people's most nostalgic memories of Doom, and that's always going to be a touchy subject. E1 never needed additional detail or all that junk. It was and is a solidly designed episode. Sure it's not without it's share of flaws, but nothing is. Because humans made it.

KDIZD is a big wad with a lot of work put into it, but it's not a very solid wad. There's no real art direction, and while there's some top notch stuff in it, there's a whole lot more mediocre stuff, and even some horribly bad stuff.
On top of that, it's a project that constantly clashes with itself and the original product.

Graf Zahl said:

As for the hate, most was due to the fact that far too many people had made up their mind long before it was released and couldn't back down once it was released without losing face.

That's nonsense, I can only speak for myself, but I couldn't care less what the majority of the people here or on the internet at large thinks about me or what I like.
But you can go on living in your bubble, believing what you want. If that makes you happier.

[Graf Zahl]

kristus said:

That's nonsense, I can only speak for myself, but I couldn't care less what the majority of the people here or on the internet at large thinks about me or what I like.
But you can go on living in your bubble, believing what you want. If that makes you happier.

You think that it is nonsense? How comes that the people who were bitching the most before the release are the same who still are the ones bitching the most? To me it's a clear indicator that they refuse to be open-minded about certain issues.

[Csonicgo]

God Blind me why am I seeing a kdizd thread again?

I'm still waiting for 1.1, you know.

[Patrick]

i was honestly impressed by kdizd, my only problem was the length and seemingly endless search for keys and switches... the detail was beautiful and the levels were well contrived. so not everyone hated it. i quite liked it

[printz]

Vader said:

However, I'm pretty much disappointed that the new monster are generally disliked... were the countless hours of sprite drawing a waste of time?
I really thought this would be one of the strong points of the project... guess I was wrong :(

No, your monsters were a welcome addition. They started as a seeming joke -- a seasoned E1 veteran wouldn't take them seriously because of experience -- but ended up as a nightmare. Doom at its best.

The Hell Warriors weren't out of place -- both "odd" components were already drawn on Doom switches and sprite decorations. The Satyrs, in my thinking, could have been left as Hell nobles in shape from the MRW. They would have kept their size consistent to their health, and wouldn't have looked like mythological beings rightaway.

New monsters all the way, unless it's a vanilla/limit removing port map!

Note that I hardly download ZDoom files, and I got this because it references original Doom and took a lot of time to be done. It's just like Doom 3. In so many ways.

I was pleased by KDiZD because it did everything I would have done myself to remake Doom by ZDoom.

[esselfortium]

KDiZD is...hm. It's very inconsistent in quality, which makes it hard to really judge accurately.

There are some sections that are absolutely beautiful, such as the outdoor rocky section with the crane in z1m6 (I think Vader built this? either way, it's incredible). On the other hand, there are many other sections that feel like no one on the team really liked them, but they decided that no one would notice their major flaws if they covered their ceilings and walls in as many lights, borders, and computer screens as was humanly possible.

I can definitely appreciate the amount of time and effort that was put into its creation, but KDiZD feels very much like a mishmash of different peoples' styles. There was virtually no standardization of architectural style, texturing theme, lighting style, or really anything from one room to the next. The texturing was a theme bonanza, some of the detail blatantly screamed "LOOK AT HOW MANY LINEDEFS AND SECTORS I AM MAKING!!!! THIS DOESN'T EVEN LOOK REMOTELY GOOD AND IT'S ALL COPIED AND PASTED BUT LOOK AT OUR DATA COUNT! *FAPFAPFAP*" and I'm pretty sure I could find five entirely different ways of handling ceiling lights by walking through four or five adjacent rooms.

The gameplay often was very frustrating, and seemed to mostly consist of this:
- Find green door
- Spend next 100 years looking for green key
- Find green key behind a force field 30 miles away
- Spend next 100 years looking for the switch to unlock the force field
- Finally find the switch, and then forget where the key was that you just unlocked
- Oh, hey, the green key was conveniently located on the exact opposite end of the map, in a room that's easy to miss!
- Now where was that green door again? AAARGGH!

Vader said:

Having worked on KDiZD myself, I don't really care that there're quite a lot of people who dislike it for whatever reason.

However, I'm pretty much disappointed that the new monster are generally disliked... were the countless hours of sprite drawing a waste of time?
I really thought this would be one of the strong points of the project... guess I was wrong :(

I thought most of the new monsters were pretty well-done :)

I'm really hoping that if/when The Shores of ZDoom is finished, it'll be better-organized than KDiZD was and with more consistent quality and style throughout.

[kristus]

esselfortium said:

- Find green door
- Spend next 100 years looking for green key

Actually, I usually had that the other way around.

Find a bunch of keys.
Spend 100 years looking for doors to use them on.

Z1M3 in particular was like that.

[esselfortium]

kristus said:

Actually, I usually had that the other way around.

Find a bunch of keys.
Spend 100 years looking for doors to use them on.

Z1M3 in particular was like that.

Okay, fine. You get the idea, though. You find one thing and then the thing to use it with is on the exact opposite end of the map, hidden in an out-of-the-way room somewhere. :P

[Vader]

Well, it seems most of the monsters weren't all that annoying for the majority of you... makes me happy :)

esselfortium said:
There are some sections that are absolutely beautiful, such as the outdoor rocky section with the crane in z1m6 (I think Vader built this? either way, it's incredible).[/B]

Yes, that was me. Thanks for that!

I can also understand that many people were totally annoyed by the switch/key hunts, although I for myself like those kind of maps with lots of exploring...
I don't think the inconsistency isn't all that bad though.
I admit, there're quite some areas wich suffer from mixed architecture, texturing etc., but keep in mind how many people worked on the maps (when the project was started... as Graf already said, the number of active mappers dramatically decreased later on!) and left their personal touch to the area they worked on.
"Cleaning up" those style differences took a long, long time and as you have noticed we weren't all that sucessfull after all, although we really tried hard (at least I did).
Thinking about it, it would propably have been better if only 1 or 2 persons worked on a map instead of 10... that's something that should be kept in mind for Episode2!

I also totally agree with what was said about the different light-styles... I didn't really notice this while working on it, but there really should have been some sort of standard, when to use those glows and vertical gradients...

Anyway, I think if the upcoming TSOZD team keeps these things in mind and extracts all the useful critism out of threads like this, the sequel could turn out pretty well!

[Patrick]

So... my question is * ahem * is there plans for the The Shores of Zdoom project... and ...where can I sign up?

[esselfortium]

Vader said:

Well, it seems most of the monsters weren't all that annoying for the majority of you... makes me happy :)



Yes, that was me. Thanks for that!

I can also understand that many people were totally annoyed by the switch/key hunts, although I for myself like those kind of maps with lots of exploring...
I don't think the inconsistency isn't all that bad though.
I admit, there're quite some areas wich suffer from mixed architecture, texturing etc., but keep in mind how many people worked on the maps (when the project was started... as Graf already said, the number of active mappers dramatically decreased later on!) and left their personal touch to the area they worked on.
"Cleaning up" those style differences took a long, long time and as you have noticed we weren't all that sucessfull after all, although we really tried hard (at least I did).
Thinking about it, it would propably have been better if only 1 or 2 persons worked on a map instead of 10... that's something that should be kept in mind for Episode2!

I also totally agree with what was said about the different light-styles... I didn't really notice this while working on it, but there really should have been some sort of standard, when to use those glows and vertical gradients...

Anyway, I think if the upcoming TSOZD team keeps these things in mind and extracts all the useful critism out of threads like this, the sequel could turn out pretty well!

:)

And I, too, like huge maps with lots of exploration, but there are ways that you can pull it off without confusing the hell out of the player. My complaints are less with the actual size of the maps and more with the placement of keys, switches, and locked doors so far away from each other, with little indication of where to go to find them. The display screens were a nice idea, but it doesn't help too much if you don't know where the camera is. :P

The original episodes 2 and 3 had a lot more emphasis on exploration than episode 1, but it's mostly done in a relatively nonlinear way. For example, e2m2 can be completed extremely quickly if you know your way around it, but it has tons of optional side paths you can take if you want to go exploring to find items or just some new territory to look at.

[YMB]

TSoZD!!!
I thought it was just a myth. My life is complete.

[ReX]

Vader said:

However, I'm pretty much disappointed that the new monster are generally disliked... were the countless hours of sprite drawing a waste of time?

As Myk earlier pointed out, effort is not necessarily synonymous with quality. In the case of KDiZD, however, I feel that (for the most part) the effort did in fact translate to quality. This is never more true than in the case of the new monsters. [But then, I think I've made my opinions on this matter quite clear.]

A part of the problem probably arose from players' pre-conceived notions of what makes good Episode I maps. Some (and perhaps many) people approached KDiZD with the attitude that it was messing with Episode I, the sacred cow. Playing the game and seeing so much that was different (monsters included) likely diminished the experience for those players.

On the other hand, if a player went into KDiZD without constantly making a comparison with the original E1, it's likely that the many differences would have served to actually enhance the gaming experience.

[myk]

I think the monsters were worthwhile even if they didn't fit in too well... I mean, they will continue to be useful in further projects, perhaps enhanced in their functionality to be sure to fit a useful niche, and fit in with texture themes that merge well with them. They are quite good artwork for the most part.

EDIT: To clarify, in my case most of the criticism isn't related to whether it fit in E1's original theme in particular, but with the style of the artwork in DOOM in general; sprites in DOOM tend to be relatively simple in colors and while some show some gothicy traits, overall they fit very well in a sci-fi environment, or else in a "fire and brimstone" scenario. Some of KDiZD's seemed like more fitting in Hexen, or had coloring styles that seemed more fitting for Quake's textures, or something like that.

Graf Zahl said:
You think that it is nonsense?

Well, at least it's at kettle/pot issue. I mean, you accusing people of being "closed minded" is as ironic as something can get.

[Vader]

esselfortium said:

And I, too, like huge maps with lots of exploration, but there are ways that you can pull it off without confusing the hell out of the player. My complaints are less with the actual size of the maps and more with the placement of keys, switches, and locked doors so far away from each other, with little indication of where to go to find them. The display screens were a nice idea, but it doesn't help too much if you don't know where the camera is. :P

I'll keep this in mind when making maps in the future!
Actually I'm designing a very large and very non-linear map ATM, so this advice might come in handy there :)

Myk said:

To clarify, in my case most of the criticism isn't related to whether it fit in E1's original theme in particular, but with the style of the artwork in DOOM in general; sprites in DOOM tend to be relatively simple in colors and while some show some gothicy traits, overall they fit very well in a sci-fi environment, or else in a "fire and brimstone" scenario. Some of KDiZD's seemed like more fitting in Hexen, or had coloring styles that seemed more fitting for Quake's textures, or something like that.

I would agree on that... especially the Hellwarrior and the Satyr don't fit in all that well. Maybe it's because I'm generally more a fan of gothic/medival style opposite to the Demon-cyber hybrid stuff!

[printz]

Vader said:

I'll keep this in mind when making maps in the future!
Actually I'm designing a very large and very non-linear map ATM, so this advice might come in handy there :)

I find it suspicious, considering that the "getting-lost" problem never annoyed me with KDiZD, as much as it did with Hexen 2.

I would agree on that... especially the Hellwarrior and the Satyr don't fit in all that well. Maybe it's because I'm generally more a fan of gothic/medival style opposite to the Demon-cyber hybrid stuff!

Yeah, the Cacodemons are red and blue, the Demons and Barons are pink, the Imps are brown, the Cybers and Masters and Mancubi and Arachnos are mustard with metal mechanix.

[GGG]

Frankdude said:

why all the kzizd hate?

Probably because people saw barons appearing halfway through the episode and yelled, "Blasphemy!"

[Lorenzo]

I played it all, from the first to the last level. Here i got lost.
I had not enough ammo to kill the monsters.

What i really hate in kdizd, is that they put a weapon (a powerful and useful weapon) in secret areas. This is cheating.

Lorenzo

[Enjay]

yomoneyboat said:

Those Satyrs were stupid, I must say. They looked out of place and posed NO threat!

I really liked the satyrs. I thought they both looked and animated very well. I thought they were entirely in keeping with the more traditional elements of some of the Doom hell imagery (horned demons etc) and they also reminded me slightly of the "birdman" model from the early Doom3 previews. I have no problem imagining them coming through the hell portals and rampaging around a moonbase.

They weren't a huge threat and most of the time they could be picked off before they got within danger distance but who says all bad guys have to be tough? I would have liked them to pose a bit more of a threat though.

[stphrz]

Lorenzo said:

I played it all, from the first to the last level. Here i got lost.
I had not enough ammo to kill the monsters.

What i really hate in kdizd, is that they put a weapon (a powerful and useful weapon) in secret areas. This is cheating.

Lorenzo

Gah, no. It's not cheating. Game designers by definition cannot cheat.

[exp(x)]

kdizd sucks almost as much as dre

[YMB]

exp(x) said:

kdizd sucks almost as much as dre

How can you compare anything to that 65 meg shitfest?

[ReX]

yomoneyboat said:

Those Satyrs were stupid, I must say. They looked out of place and posed NO threat!

Actually, in my opinion, the art-work and animation were very well done. As far as them being out of place, they seemed to be very much in keeping with the hell-spawn theme of other enemies (although I agree with those that say the Satyrs would have fit very well in Hexen).

What you say about the Satyrs not posing a threat is generally correct. But this is mainly the case because they were not used as effectively as they could have been. Slow-moving, melee-attack enemies work best when the player is pitted against them in close quarters without the DB shotgun or plasma rifle (or, in the case of KDiZD, the Rifle). The one time I clearly remember having a somewhat tough time with them was near the beginning in E1M8, when I was facing one in cramped quarters with just a shotgun and a chainsaw. [Btw, the chainsaw is really not a good weapon against a Satyr when the player has no room to back-pedal.]

EDIT: I just noticed that Enjay said pretty much the same thing that I did.

[Ichor]

What they really needed was maybe a Maulotaur-like charging attack, but with less damage of course. Either that or increase their speed some.