Wads that wrote a page of history

[printz]

Jodwin said:

For an example, I wouldn't nominate either KDiZD nor UTnT for that, while some people would probably first beat me and then run over me with a Buick if I tried to force that opinion down their throats. ;)

I know jack shit about UTNT, but KDiZD does have its place in history, for taking years to complete, up with noisy controversy. I also find it ridiculous to run over you with a Buick if you tried to force this opinion down my throat.

[Jodwin]

printz said:

I know jack shit about UTNT, but KDiZD does have its place in history, for taking years to complete, up with noisy controversy.

...which is exactly what I meant, this whole thing is completely subjective. Personally I wouldn't consider KDiZD that important because it didn't offer anything truly new. Yes, it's got a lot of controversy, took ages to finish and is overall a high quality product, but for some people (like me) that alone isn't enough.

The point? If you want a listing of most influential wads, don't even think about arguing about other people's choices. That's just pointless.

[Tango]

Uh, Scythe 2 should have gotten mention pretty quickly imo.

[Maes]

Vegeta said:

-wow! for being probably the first retarded wad with retarded text file that was uploaded.

The award for the most retarded textfiles must go all all "Team Tiger" (TGRXXX) releases, for having some of the most ridicolously elaborate textfiles (of course devoid of any real/useful information), as well as unconventional internal WAD schemes, of unknown purpose.

[kristus]

Tango said:

Uh, Scythe 2 should have gotten mention pretty quickly imo.

Why? Not that I have anything bad to say about Erik's work. He's a great level designer. But it's nothing more than a megawad. There's plenty of those.

[myk]

kristus said:
But it's nothing more than a megawad. There's plenty of those.

History isn't made merely by novelty and it's hardly just "another megawad". A wad that is played to death and is widely acclaimed can certainly be called historically significant, regardless of whether it used new features or can be seen as never done before in some obvious way.

[kristus]

That makes it a popular classic. That doesn't mean it's historic.

[myk]

kristus said:
That makes it a popular classic. That doesn't mean it's historic.

It's not a classic, and it certainly does leave a big mark in the history of wadmaking.

[Craigs]

Mordeth, because it's become the Duke Nukem Forever of Doom.

[kristus]

myk said:

It's not a classic, and it certainly does leave a big mark in the history of wadmaking.

Dictionary.com is my friend, you should try it out sometime.

clas·sic /ˈklæsɪk/
–adjective
1. of the first or highest quality, class, or rank: a classic piece of work.

I can easily see what makes it a classic. But what makes it historic, I have no idea what that would be.

[myk]

kristus said:
Dictionary.com is my friend, you should try it out sometime.

That's hardly the only use of the word and generally a "classic" is something appreciated for a good period of time, if not a long time; "traditionally appreciated for its great value". I'd mostly use the term for older wads, personally, like Memento Mori and UAC Dead. But if you want to apply it to Scythe2, "historically memorable" would fit pretty well.

[kristus]

Who sais it has to be the only one? It fits the bill for Scythe 2 well. There are others that also fit it, but since it was at the top of the list I decided to go with it.

[myk]

kristus said:
It fits the bill for Scythe 2 well.

Yes, and by no means contradicts it being historically relevant. On the contrary, especially since "a classic" and "historically important" are more or less synonymous when it come to designs of quality.

[alexz721]

You guys seem to be missing the point of the original post. Did it introduce any new features or innovations?

[myk]

alexz721 said:
You guys seem to be missing the point of the original post. Did it introduce any new features or innovations?

That would be me mostly, although as noted above I don't agree that's necessarily what makes a wad "write a page of history". Some perhaps, but only if those innovations were ingenious or used in a particularly skilled way. The discussion is just about crass noveltism, if not.

[Genoveffo]

Uh, some of my posts went to hell... Why hasn't anyone mentioned Sapphire?

[BoldEnglishman]

I haven't mentioned anything yet (about what I think should be included here) mainly 'cos about 30-40% of WADs I play alot are all made by Torm667. So I'd probably get beaten down into a hole and called a fanboy.

Besides, what constitutes a classic is different for everybody here. Alot of it has to do with when you really got involved with custom levels and such. I mean, I first started playing custom mods for Doom around 4-6 years ago. What I regard as influential to me, is what made an impact on my vision of Doom at the time. So that would include:

-WolfenDoom
-Scythe for having lots and lots of enemies
-Scythe II for being even more ludicrous
-Void for being, voidish and wierd.
-Claustrophobia, for having a boss the likes I have never seen since or before.
-Alot of Tormentor maps simply for changing what I thought could be done with Doom.

But does this mean that the community as a whole thinks that these are classics too? Of course not. For instance, with Scythe, I remember it for being the FIRST WAD with lots of monsters that I PLAYED. For lot's of people, its a different story, and some people here that have been around a long time, been here done that in terms of hard megawads, will argue that perhaps its just another megawad.

But yes, Sapphire is a very very good map. Beautiful aesthetically, and good gameplay, with an interesting final boss.

But, as pointed out, does it introduce anything new? Unless you count the ACTUAL boss monster (the Spider Demolisher) making its first appearance there (which I'm not entirely sure of myself) then no, Sapphire doesn't introduce anything new. (As for skyboxes, I doubt Sapphire was the first to use that SPECIFIC type of skybox, but of course I could be wrong)

[Enjay]

Interesting. My feeling from reading this thread is that most of the WADs being suggested are relatively recent. Kind of like those awful TV shows where the 100 "best" songs/movies/whatever get chosen and 95 of the best 100 were apparently made in the last 4 years. Are there really so few old "historic" wads?

We need someone who knows the archives intimately, like Grazza, to make some suggestions.

[Cybershark]

stphrz said:

10 sectors wad, the product of the biggest and best editing competition in Doom's history. It brought greater technical understanding of Doom editing to the community. In my opinion this helped improve the overall quality of maps made after it.

let's have some love for 2sectors then too! :p
also, not that i'm proud of it but MAGHQ certainly made a seemingly indelible impact upon all those multiplayer clans out there.

being more historical then i'd suggest The Last Resort for being one of the earliest, most atmospheric DM experiences.

[Vegeta]

I think some people are confusing personal tastes with historic value. Sapphire is a good wad, but nothing else. 2sectors didn't had the impact of 10sectors, and few players played it or even know about it. Also it didn't started a new genre as 1024x1024 (included inside the bigger concept of the artificial limits imposing that emerged with 10sectors).
Maghq is just another wad.
I could also call the "megawad in two weeks" that I worked on with another guys, historic as it caused some drama and its concept was something unusual (perhaps the first speed run megawad that followed a plot), same with DOOM 2.5, or my eidolon wad for being the first Hexen II recreation on Heretic, or my icon of sin patch for being the first converting the icon of sin into a full body sprite based monster. But I think a wad needs something else, hard to explain with words, to be historic, otherwise all wads on the archives could be historic.


Now back to the list:

-Kick DOOM should also be on the list too, the only wad that makes propaganda to a soda, the quality of its sprites is pretty good, and it's also included in the original Quake cd.
-idmap01 for being the only pwad designed by an id employee, and uploaded on the id web site as that (a pwad designed by..).

[Genoveffo]

BoldEnglishman said:

But yes, Sapphire is a very very good map. Beautiful aesthetically, and good gameplay, with an interesting final boss.

But, as pointed out, does it introduce anything new?

Reflective floors for the first time?

Enjay said:

Interesting. My feeling from reading this thread is that most of the WADs being suggested are relatively recent.

I suggested in my first post origwad.wad

[esselfortium]

Genoveffo said:

Reflective floors for the first time?

STOP THE PRESSES

EDIT:

In addition to some of the things that have already been posted here, I'd like to add the 32in24 series to the list. Never before have a group of Doomers gotten together to build a finished, playable megawad in 24 hours. In addition to the final product being fun to play and usually impressive for the amount of time spent creating it, it's a great way for mappers to instantaneously get feedback on their work, and to have others teach them how to do things they don't know.

[Genoveffo]

esselfortium said:

STOP THE PRESSES

:confused:

[Jodwin]

Genoveffo said:

Reflective floors for the first time?

Done before, even in software ports. Of course the effect isn't exactly the same, but the idea is there.

Then again, that's just graphics. It rarely makes a wad that special (but sometimes does, if it's used well to create interesting gameplay situations and atmosphere).

[exl]

Is this about historically important WADs or WADs that are\were innovative? And what makes a historically important WAD important?

[Enjay]

Genoveffo said:

Reflective floors for the first time?

The first one I remember seeing with genuine reflective floors was on small area near the start of Zanzan. But then, I'd suggest that Zanzan was historic for other reasons

Genoveffo said:

I suggested in my first post origwad.wad

Precisely why I said "most" and even italicised it for emphasis in my post. ;)


Has anyone mentioned Tei Tenga yet? I remember that causing a stir because of being the first heavily scripted, story driven, story evolving-as-you-play WAD.

Commercial WADs probably have a place in history too... though I'm not quite sure what that place is.

[edit]fixed messed up quote[/edit]

[John Smith]

Evilution scores for causing the most ever community drama.

[Cybershark]

Vegeta said:

I think some people are confusing personal tastes with historic value. Sapphire is a good wad, but nothing else. 2sectors didn't had the impact of 10sectors, and few players played it or even know about it. Also it didn't started a new genre as 1024x1024 (included inside the bigger concept of the artificial limits imposing that emerged with 10sectors).

hence the ':p' after the mention.

Vegeta said:

Maghq is just another wad.

ha, maybe to the SP community. it's more like a plague to multiplayer ports though ;)
sure, people had put frivolous decoration in maps before but with the birth of this monster then the HQ was coined as a form of map and every pre-teen player wanted to have their own personal effects in somebody's (y'know, along with a working swimming pool, dancefloor, target range, etc, etc).
again, it's not something you'll find much (if any) record of in the idgames archives but the sheer number of copycat works which have followed since, all with the common trait of having absolutely nothing worthwhile to do would argue that the original certainly has a place in multiplayer lore.

and i'll vote for CTFdoom, or if that's being considered a port on its own then ZDCTFMP for being to CTF (and multiplayer in general) what DWANGO5 was to DM.

[GGG]

John Smith said:

Evilution scores for causing the most ever community drama.

It also scores for helping open the door to ambitious, atmospheric fan-made megawads.

[Oldfukka]

Enjay said:

Interesting. My feeling from reading this thread is that most of the WADs being suggested are relatively recent. Kind of like those awful TV shows where the 100 "best" songs/movies/whatever get chosen and 95 of the best 100 were apparently made in the last 4 years. Are there really so few old "historic" wads?

We need someone who knows the archives intimately, like Grazza, to make some suggestions.

I'm late joining this thread, but you make an excellent point. There were many great wads made in the mid- to late-'90s era. Some of the best and most innovative were made by a guy named Jim Flynn. No list of historic wads would be complete without his best levels. (I can't remember the names of them anymore.) Flynn used to be the moderator of the Doom message board on Compuserve. How many of you remember those days? He banished me several times for rules violations, including mentioning the name "Aliens TC" in a post. Back in those days, Aliens TC was alleged to contain gross copyright violations and the mere mentioning of its name on Compuserve was grounds for a one-week banishment. Whatever happened to Mr. Flynn? He must be an old fucka today, like me.