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EllipsusD

Death?

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The father of a friend of mine died yesterday. He was driving some scouts back from a camping trip... who knows... if I hadn't left the troop after I turned 18 I might have been there too. I knew Mr. Cowan, and it was a shock to hear about what happened- but I could barely cry.

I don't think I understand the nature of grief. I know that I am supposed to feel sad about what happened, but my sadness if not for Mr. Cowan but for his wife and children. I know how it feels to lose a parent, and it saddens me to think of how Bennet and his sister must be feeling now. But more than this I now question my own mortality more than before... it just feels so selfish to do. It just doesn't feel right... I should be upset that he is gone but it is so far from my mind. Is this what grieving is supposed to be? Can somebody help me with this?

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Just who said you are "supposed" to be sad?


I would advise you to read "The Outsider" by Albert Camus. It's a book about a dude who wasn't sorry about his mom's death (In the end, they killed him for it). Kinda gives a different, and better, from my humble point of view, perspective. I.e. not that you should not feel sorry about your mom's death, but that you don't _have_ to be, and you don't have to perform designated rituals to show everyone how sorry you are.


Heh, I'm not exactly sure if this is the kind of answer you wanted.



(But read it, it's a very good book anyway)

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I don't know, I had a friend who's dad died, I felt sorry for the kids, but I didn't feel sad because of the death, I didn't feel the least bit sad when my grandmom died, or when my dog got hit by a car and died next day, I was even sittin there watching him pass away in agony, (I won't get into the detail of how he looked). I can't really say how I would feel if one of my parents died,

I don't know... I don't think I was ever sad at anybody's death. I don't know why, normal or not I don't really care. I still try and show respect though.

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"Take death, for example. A gread deal of our effort goes into avoiding it. We make extraordinary efforts to delay it, and indeed often consider its intrusion a tragic event. Yet we would find it hard to live without it. Death gives meaning to our lives. It gives importance and value to time. Time would become meaningless if there were too much of it. If death were indefinitely put off, the human psyche would end up, well, like the gambler in the Twilight Zone episode." -Ray Kurzwell, the age of spiritual machines.

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I should also mention that the 2 friends (brothers) both had down syndrome, were very poor and since their dad died their mother was the only one that could take care of them (no clue how she could manage to take care of them all on her own).

I wasn't really their best friend, but they were cool to talk to, then I moved. This was all a long time ago =\ I know a lot of people bitch about how their life sucks including me, but I don't remember them ever bitching, and they sure have a right to.

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There was this boy. Hated his father because his father worked him liked a dog, but he adored his mother because she treated him like the most important thing in the world.

Then, when he became a man, his mother died... and he couldn't shed a tear at her funeral.

Then, a few years later, his father died... and he couldn't stop crying.

Although he loved his mother dearly it was his father that gave his life purpose... it was his father that gave him the drive to succeed.

This is a very old story told in many different ways and I felt that sharing it might help.

Only one person I dearly cared about died and I cried for days. Not-so-coincidentially, it was also about that time I quit going to Church.

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I don't think you're alone on this one, Elip. A freind of our family has stomach cancer, it's terminal, but I haven't felt any real sadness, or what I'd call sadness yet. I certainly haven't cried. Of course we're upset when people we know are affected, but I'll go out on a limb here and say we really have to love them, I mean selfishly love them to be affected if anything happens to them, or they are affected by something themselves.
My ex's dad died when she was eight, every Father's day she would cry, and I'd dry with her, cos I love her and it affects me to see her this way. I guess there are just levels with this kind of stuff, anyway I hope this helps.

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All of you guys, thanks. What you have said has helped. I'm still upset over the whole situation, but I think I can fix things without a knife this time. Thanks.

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The father of a friend of mine died yesterday.

I am sorry to hear that.

He was driving some scouts back from a camping trip... who knows... if I hadn't left the troop after I turned 18 I might have been there too. I knew Mr. Cowan, and it was a shock to hear about what happened- but I could barely cry.

Don't worry; I hardly cry ever, if at all. Doesn't mean you have no emotion; some people are just like that.

I don't think I understand the nature of grief. I know that I am supposed to feel sad about what happened, but my sadness if not for Mr. Cowan but for his wife and children. I know how it feels to lose a parent, and it saddens me to think of how Bennet and his sister must be feeling now. But more than this I now question my own mortality more than before... it just feels so selfish to do. It just doesn't feel right... I should be upset that he is gone but it is so far from my mind. Is this what grieving is supposed to be? Can somebody help me with this?

You shouldn't feel sad for Mr. Cowan; if he was saved he's in a far better place. You should feel sad for his wife and kids, as they don't have a man to help run things for them now.
Grieving is whatever you make of it, IMO.

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I know how it feels to lose a parent

Jeez, why am I never as lucky as anybody else...

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that's not funny man.

Congratulations on noticing the lack of a smiley.

Why not, different things are funny for different people

It wasn't meant to be funny, it was meant to be frustrating. In my experience it goes like those of us who actually get along with the parents lose them and those who want them dead are stuck with them forever. I'd gladly swap places with him in terms of family death if I could.

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My Bible as Lit teacher lost her 16 year old niece Thanksgiving weekend, she had to take off school. Ironicaly, her dog had puppies about a week leter. Kinda funny how life is. I never lost anyone I really cared for. My grandma died, my great aunt died. Yet I feel no sadness. I rarely cry, yet I often feel lonely, probably because of my depression thing. Oh well, right now I'm listening to a song by Type O Negative 'Everything Dies'. Good song. On topic. Listen to it sometime.

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Thought number 2: Grief is a selfish thing.
The person who has died is happy in thier oblivion/afterlife, yet you are left alone, having lost a friend/loved one and now you cry because YOU are missing something. Grief is selfish, but so is hunger, if you think about it. Natural defence mechanisms.

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that's not funny man.

Congratulations on noticing the lack of a smiley.

Why not, different things are funny for different people

It wasn't meant to be funny, it was meant to be frustrating. In my experience it goes like those of us who actually get along with the parents lose them and those who want them dead are stuck with them forever. I'd gladly swap places with him in terms of family death if I could.

ok, wires crossed, sorry. But why would you swap places? Surely nothing could make the situation that bad that you'd really wish that could happen...?

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ok, wires crossed, sorry. But why would you swap places? Surely nothing could make the situation that bad that you'd really wish that could happen...?



I dun no how bad a situation must be for lut, but it doesn't necassarily have to be horrible. I mean hey, the cow in my hamburger never did anything to me but I am not sad that it is dead. So I sure in the hell am not going to get all sad for someones death who is ill towards me or practically as worthless and stupid as that cow. To me they are no different than the mutilated animals that make my jello. It's not a decision I make, that is just how it is. I will never care for someone just because they are a human or just because they are related to me.

On the other hand though, I feel a lot for people that I do care about. I'd have to say pain is more real to me when it is someone I care about getting hurt instead of me. Even when it comes to animals, I couldn't say my dogs name for two years without crying right on the spot. But when I am confronted by someone I dislike, I began to dissociate.

And what it all comes down to is how we associate and dissociate. When dissociation becomes so severe that it becomes a disorder it is called a dissociation disorder. Which is things like Dissociative Identity Disorder (Recently known as Multiple Personality Disorder), Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, etc.. Some mild dissociation is day dreaming, highway hypnosis, or "getting lost" in a book or movie, all of which involve "loosing touch" with conscious awareness of one's immediate surroundings. I for one loose touch with other people feelings when I dislike them, things aren't associated with other things as they normal would be.

When you see someone get hurt, or hear of something as such you begin to associate this with many different things.

For instance if you see someone get cut then you will begin to associate. If you have been cut before you may associate that with the pain you felt, resurrecting a dead sensation. You may also associate it with any type of fear you made of had when you got cut, even if you do not sense fear in the person being cut. If you have cut yourself before for the sake of self-mutilation then you may start to associate those feelings with it as well, or because it is apparent that this is not the case for this other person, then you may not. We don't have much control of how we associate.

Another example would be having a traumatic childhood experience and associating those feelings you had when comming across elements that existed then. Lets say there was a certain smell when this traumatic experience happened to them. That person may not even remember what happened and still associate that pain that they can't remember with that smell. They may not even know what is going on or what exactly it is that they are feeling. But that smell alone could start to make them depressed, even if they do not recognize the smell. Much of our body is automatic, there is little you can do about it.

And just like you and many other people with or without mental illness, most of us can do little to change how we associate. But if you want to, you can do things to show that you care, without or without emotions to back it up. Hell, even people that do get emotional over this type of stuff don't always go out of there way to show they care. It isn't uncommon for someone to get heart struck by something just because they tend to be more senstitive, to associate more readily, not because they actually care. But of course these people do tend to do things that show they care more. Because they are in a way, reliving the pain. And so when they help them, they kinda help themselves, they can began to feel good about themselves too. If someone lost there parents and you had to go through that also and began to feel that pain again when you heard about it. Then you may be able to manifest emotions you would have longed to feel if someone had helped you out by helping this person out, feeling you never got the chance to feel. Or ones you felt before is someone did help you out and could relive as you manifested them to someone else, as you realize those feelings are being felt by that person at this exact moment. Which sounds a bit selfish, but it isn't. Because everyone does things for themselves no matter what. What makes it selfish is when you don't take other people into consideration. If you do something that makes you feel good after taking someone elses emotions into consideration then it is not selfish, despite the fact that you do it because it makes you feel good.

Blah blah blah, blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blaaah blahahaha, blah blah. Blah blah.. blah blah balhaha, blahlbah blah. Blahbahal blah blah. blahb albh Balch Blah blAh.

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Surely nothing could make the situation that bad that you'd really wish that could happen...?

It's for the good of humanity.

or "getting lost" in a book or movie, all of which involve "loosing touch" with conscious awareness of one's immediate surroundings.

Who doesn't get lost in a book or movie if it's good enough?

Another example would be having a traumatic childhood experience and associating those feelings you had when comming across elements that existed then. Lets say there was a certain smell when this traumatic experience happened to them. That person may not even remember what happened and still associate that pain that they can't remember with that smell.

Hm, reminds me of Maury show I saw a while back where people would panic and pass out when they brought things like cotton and dogs onstage :P

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Well if it is "good enough" then nobody. You sure in hell can't not get lost in a book that is "good enough" to get lost in.

But why do you point it out any ways? I never said there are people who don't "get lost" in books or movies ever.

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But why do you point it out any ways?

Well, you seemed to be saying it was a type of disorder, which I didn't believe it was.

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Quote from my post:

When dissociation becomes so severe that it becomes a disorder it is called a dissociation disorder.



Dissociating isn't a disorder. It only seems to become a disorder when you are put into a traumatic situation that causes you to dissociate yourself to the extent that it become a problem, till it actually becomes a disorder. Like child abuse for instance. An abused child will dissociate more than an adult. Abused child account for 98-99% of people with Dissociative Identitiy Disorder (muliple personality disorder). If they are faced with a violent situation, they may dissociate so well that they'll take on a new identity of a person who can deal with the situation for them, someone who can take care of them. So instead of seeing violence and becomming scared as usual. They will see it and become aggressive. Not only that, but they will act different and react different to everything, they will act like a totally different person. Some think of it as a natural defense mechanism. Another example are war veterans with post traumatic stress disorder. Again, this dissociative disorder is created because they were put into an extremely traumatic experience that caused them to dissociate more than a person normally would, or would ever have to in there daily lives.

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