Good old Doom2 --Suburbs MAP16

[Hellbent]

I have often lamented that Doom2 is way inferior to Doom, but Doom2 really has a charm all its own. I am playing through some levels. I'm on level 16 at the moment: Suburbs. It's interesting after all these years how many little things I didn't notice before. I find new secrets or find better ways to dispatch the enemy. I can't find the fourth secret. The plasma guns don't even count as a secret which is crazy. So I found the 3 cacos behind the skulls and I found the bfg and 3 packs of ammo (those count as two secrets). I found the backpack of ammo near the SSG. The panel's eyes don't even line up with the gun! You have to get the spread shot to get that one--I thought that was pretty clever. So that's three. No idea even where the fourth secret could fit!

Don't tell me where it is! Just tell me if you have found it. (ie, you've gotten 100% secrets for this level)

Thanks!

EDIT: I found it!! Haha! Awesome! Very cool. Was wondering what that other little blotch on the wall was--but couldn't figure out how to get high enough to shoot it. I wonder how many people have found that secret. In Doom 1, it was easy to find all the secrets. But in Doom 2--I never did--only now seem to have an interest in tracking them down. :) Well, I'm all ready for next level.

[ReX]

In 1996 or 1997 I remember making demos of each DooM2 level with 100% kills, 100% secrets, and 100% items. By today's speed-running and other demo standards, my demos were pathetic. But I managed to complete each level with a pistol start and get the max. stats. I even created a text file with all the secrets documented.

[Use]

Considering the time that Doom2 was made it's perfectly acceptable. Granted I would have waited longer for more 'refined' levels but many people don't understand the kind of timetable/deadlines enforced on a software company by the publisher. It's a great game.

[printz]

Doom2 stands out for its Sandy Petersen sandbox-like progression levels.

[_bruce_]

Doom1, from a purist persepective is kinda perfect.
Though Doom2, on the other hand, is unbelievably badass... the music, levels, supershotgun, the new sky, monsters.
For me it's one of the few examples where more equals "better".
Both had a very distinct charme and style - and are close to my heart.

When it comes to usermade levels - Doom1 only.

[Patrick]

i think that doom e1 was probably the best installment of doom. maybe the first few levels of doom 2 perhaps. everything else is far too surreal and inconsistent. with a little more effort from id, they could have made it phobos2 quality, that had some amount of realism.

[TheAdmantArchvile]

Hellbent said:

I have often lamented that Doom2 is way inferior to Doom, but Doom2 really has a charm all its own. I am playing through some levels. I'm on level 16 at the moment: Suburbs. It's interesting after all these years how many little things I didn't notice before. I find new secrets or find better ways to dispatch the enemy. I can't find the fourth secret. The plasma guns don't even count as a secret which is crazy. So I found the 3 cacos behind the skulls and I found the bfg and 3 packs of ammo (those count as two secrets). I found the backpack of ammo near the SSG. The panel's eyes don't even line up with the gun! You have to get the spread shot to get that one--I thought that was pretty clever. So that's three. No idea even where the fourth secret could fit!

Don't tell me where it is! Just tell me if you have found it. (ie, you've gotten 100% secrets for this level)

Thanks!

EDIT: I found it!! Haha! Awesome! Very cool. Was wondering what that other little blotch on the wall was--but couldn't figure out how to get high enough to shoot it. I wonder how many people have found that secret. In Doom 1, it was easy to find all the secrets. But in Doom 2--I never did--only now seem to have an interest in tracking them down. :) Well, I'm all ready for next level.

The secrest are the following
1. In the house next to the one you start out in there is a red bloot you shoot to open the bookcase containg the Megasphere.
2. Same room. The Pair of eyes you shoot to get a backpack and shotgun shells.
3. the weird red sqare building. One of the doors is there for show so you can enter it.
4. Same room. Hit the intestine wall on the right to lower the platform. walk on to the other platform and fall into the little pit. hit the skull switch to open a little alcove that hides a BFG 9000

[pcorf]

Janitor said:

i think that doom e1 was probably the best installment of doom. maybe the first few levels of doom 2 perhaps. everything else is far too surreal and inconsistent. with a little more effort from id, they could have made it phobos2 quality, that had some amount of realism.

Yeah, the quality of many user made levels kicks the arse out of id's levels. But still with id's levels, thats the maps made by Peterson, Romero, McGee and co are still something very special. They are true Doom levels designed to the way that Doom should really look like. And its like today someone gets critisized when he tries to make a map like id's, eg texture misalignments, low detail since most people expect Quake-ish style maps with shaded ligting, lotsa detail with all those sourceports. Still, there are some outstanding user made levels with all of that detail around but id's levels were all about what Doom really was supposed to be.

I enjoy playing through MAP16 of Doom 2 because it has a very unique layout with some clever secrets and excellent fights. But the secrets in Map16 were cleverly done because they were well hidden but there were some hints in how to get them, like shooting at a particular texture in the wall. There might be a few misaligned and odd textures but it was exceptionally good.

[Darkman 4]

I've always felt that the stock Doom 2 maps underutilized it's new monsters. It felt like the new monsters were shoehorned into the maps (like in PSX Doom's Doom 1 maps) instead of being properly integrated. However, you got the the SSG way too early, so most of the time you were blowing through piles of Pinkies and Imps with the SSG with the occasional Revenant being thrown in.

[myk]

Darkman 4 said:
However, you got the the SSG way too early, so most of the time you were blowing through piles of Pinkies and Imps with the SSG with the occasional Revenant being thrown in.

I don't really see that. DOOM II is already harder than DOOM as it is. More new monsters (which have rather dangerous attacks) would have made something considerably harder, like Plutonia. By the second and third episodes the new monsters are certainly not uncommon, if not abused for what a player back then may have expected. The monster placement along with the SSG is what, while giving a beefier challenge than DOOM, gives DOOM II its more busy action.

[Never_Again]

pcorf said:

But still with id's levels, thats the maps made by Peterson, Romero, McGee and co are still something very special.

Most of the maps by Sandy "Sticky Fingers" Petersen are the worst id levels ever. Every time I run into an ugly as sin sandbox with no game flow or detail, I don't have to check the Wiki to know it's by him. George Fiffy designed better maps than that, for chrissakes. =)

[baddream]

Personally, I don't care what a map looks like as long as it's memorable and fun to play. Probably the levels I remember the best (from playing Doom II when I was 15) are all by Petersen. Tricks & Traps, for example. Many Doom/Doom II levels I don't remember at all.

[Zafbot]

I will always remember the first map from the original doom, and the second map. I love those maps.

[Scuba Steve]

Suburbs is one of the worst maps ever made... Downtown is damn close.

[Butts]

i liked most of the doom 2 and doom maps. i think american mcgee has pretty good maps. i liked map 2 of doom 2. i didnt think sandy petersons maps were all that bad. but they are pretty ugly. doom 2 had no aesthetics. map 14 i think had the most time spent in detailing. or map2.

[baddream]

Janitor said:

i think that doom e1 was probably the best installment of doom. maybe the first few levels of doom 2 perhaps. everything else is far too surreal and inconsistent. with a little more effort from id, they could have made it phobos2 quality, that had some amount of realism.

But isn't it after the first few levels that the influence of hell begins to disfigure everything? At least in Doom II that's made explicit in one of the story inserts. Surrealism in this context seems more appropriate than realism. So what do we have? Maps that remind you of bizarre fever dreams, a lonely marine who jogs faster in his space armor than you can ride a bike, the almost sadistic occurrence of medical kits in the most unbelievable places. What's not to like?

[Technician]

Episode 2 is when Doom's maps take on the hell/techno horror theme that you're thinking of. The reason being after you have completed ep2. You discovered the whole mass of earth that was the moon base was teleported to hell.

[printz]

Scuba Steve said:

Suburbs is one of the worst maps ever made... Downtown is damn close.

I like Suburbs because it has the courage to spawn a horde of monsters... same as Courtyard... both by Petersen.

[Never_Again]

baddream said:

But isn't it after the first few levels that the influence of hell begins to disfigure everything?

Or is it just a lame excuse to cover up total lack of imagination and sense of aesthetic? And how could have id released garbage like Suburbs and Downtown if they had seen TRINITY2.WAD?

I had the misfortune of playing Final DOOM before DOOM][ and still remember how appalled I was at the generally cheap and uninspired level design in DOOM][. Yes, there are a few great boards in there - Underhalls, The Inmost Dens, Tenements, The Catacombs, Bloodfalls and Abandoned Mines, and - surprise! - none of them by good ol' Sandy. His only half-decent map there is The Citadel, if you ignore the fact that the castle theme had been done before and much better (e.g. THEKEEP2.WAD from May '94).

[baddream]

Never_Again said:

Or is it just a lame excuse to cover up total lack of imagination and sense of aesthetic?

My objection was to the idea that realistic maps were somehow inherently better than surreal ones. *I like* shabby surrealism, and couldn't care less for any purported realism when playing Doom. When I want to experience beauty, I listen to Wagner.

[myk]

Never_Again said:
Or is it just a lame excuse to cover up total lack of imagination and sense of aesthetic?

He was just an (older) employee of id, and not an owner like most of the others. In any case, while his levels tended to be the cruddiest*, he was also pretty varied and inventive. His levels tend to be maybe a bit easy, but also are generally fun to play. They usually have a few more bugs all around, but also many curious speed running quirks.

Sandy Petersen was also the most prolific mapper. He possibly saved DOOM from being released somewhat too late, and certainly helped DOOM II to be made in a short period.

Another thing I like about his not-so-perfect levels is that since they are nonetheless fun, they are an encouragement for a newer mapper. It took the community like 3 years to start to make levels as solid as some of the neater ones in the IWAD in any consistent fashion.

* Overall he's probably my least favorite author in DOOM and DOOM II, particularly if we discount E4.

And how could have id released garbage like Suburbs and Downtown if they had seen TRINITY2.WAD?

Heh, there are examples from '94 that may have helped as replacements for some of Sandy's levels, but Trinity is kind of ugly in itself, and its playability is more plain than in many of Petersen's levels. That kind of photo based texturing would have looked horrid in the actual game, in any case. I think Suburbs today is a bit weak because it's easy to avoid or destroy all the monsters, but Downtown I like more (and is one of Sandy's better levels).

[ and still remember how appalled I was at the generally cheap and uninspired level design in DOOM][.

I played it later. I was pleased with Plutonia, which was a tough and well themed variation of DOOM II for the most part (even occasionally inspired by some of Petersen's levels), but not so much TNT, because it's less fun to play (than either DOOM II or Plutonia), sprawling in a more or less boring fashion often, not displaying much originality (certainly when going for cheap realism), and showing some bad aesthetics in texture use (the color combinations or uses are often bad and the papery "cave textures" are a definite mistake).

[Creaphis]

It's funny how divided the camp always is when the topic of Doom 2 comes up. Personally, I've stood on both sides of the issue. When I was younger, Sandy Peterson's gimmicky levels were my favorites. I still enjoy Downtown, Tricks and Traps, etc. However, nowadays I definitely prefer the polished detail and gameplay of the better pwads. Also, I prefer Final Doom levels to Doom 2 levels, because of the additional challenge, nicer architecture, more modern gameplay, and I haven't played through those iwads nearly so many times.

Random sidenote: I once came across and watched a few of the Doom port videos by this guy: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=mjc2021
At one point he criticizes Final Doom of having terrible level design compared to Doom 2. That really surprised me, since he also gives high praise to some newer shooters. You wouldn't expect someone as nostalgic for early Doom as this guy to also enjoy a modern FPS.

[myk]

Creaphis said:
It's funny how divided the camp always is when the topic of Doom 2 comes up.

Petersen did almost half of DOOM in the level design department, so this is not just about DOOM II.

Sandy Peterson's gimmicky levels

The word gimmicky brings to mind the truck in TNT level 19, the machinery sounds in level 4, or stuff like that. Instead of gimmicky, I'd say many of Petersen's levels are conceptual, gamewise. They work around an idea that gives them form as a playing area. Maps 8 and 23 exemplify this most clearly, but others show similar characteristics, such as using the top of a volcano to create a level that is basically one huge area, or a city environment to do something similar but with a lot of height variation.

At one point he criticizes Final Doom of having terrible level design compared to Doom 2. That really surprised me,

I haven't seen what he said, and while to me Plutonia has a playability that is comparable to DOOM II's but tougher, TNT's is more uneven and not as enjoyable on the whole.

You wouldn't expect someone as nostalgic for early Doom as this guy to also enjoy a modern FPS.

Perhaps, unless he isn't nostalgic and simply likes playing the levels and how they are designed.

Being nostalgic means you like the thing because of what it did to you in the past, and in the present still get some satisfaction out of it, that's to a great degree drawn from that initial appreciation.

Personally, what I recall of me playing DOOM early on is some wonder at the game but also a kind of frustrated playing, with bad movement and an overuse of save games. As I play better now, I enjoy playing the levels more than I did before. While I do also like playing new levels and value their sometimes tighter designs, the original levels retain their charm, as long as they provide stuff to do, such as completing them in Nightmare and stuff like that.

[baddream]

It's of course important not to let nostalgia cloud one's judgement. What I really like about many older games is their game-like quality: they know they are games, and they don't try to be anything more than games. Often, for this reason, they manage to be better games. I suppose this might be because the graphics used to be so primitive that games had to sell themselves as games: the focus had to be somewhere else than the graphics. Think of Doom as a complex reaction and button-pressing game clad in shabby monsters and guns. Most newer games are not even that. They are more like graphics tours. Oh the horror! Give me Tetris any day. Or let me take a walk in the woods.

From this same perspective, but with a less reductionist gaze: the levels of Doom and Doom II can be pretty fun and inventive, yet concise and coherent. I think Myk has covered this ground rather well.

[deathbringer]

People don't like "Sandbox" levels? i thought nonlinearity was good?

That said i did used to like the quirks of Suburbs, like the teleporting horde of various monsters you could run around to start a big fight (infighting was an amazing feature back in the day). Careful positioning of the spawned hordes also allows you to get a VPO in Playstation doom

Downtown is pretty crap though, but mainly for all those imps in tiny alcoves, must have been even worse before looking up and down was possible
Could be worse though... could be chaingunners up there

What do people think of MAP15 (Industrial Zone), though?

[myk]

deathbringer said:
People don't like "Sandbox" levels?

Aha, no wonder they call him Sandy!

[printz]

deathbringer said:

What do people think of MAP15 (Industrial Zone), though?

I like the former human fight at the beginning, it makes Doom 2 resemble a shooter with humans, like Star Wars Dark Forces. I also like that you don't really need the red key, since there's a lifesaving teleporter in the cold lava. It's NOT obvious at all how to get that key. First there's a switch which looks like decoration, then you have to go back that teleporter -- how can you guess it leads elsewhere? When I first had Doom 2 I thought the id guys screwed it up there, so I always IDCLIPed just to get that key, wondering how the gaming communities had reacted to this huge design "mistake".

I also like the rich sequence of passages in the north part.

But overall, MAP15 is easier than some Petersen levels, not being aggresive enough with monsters. It lacks the brutality of MAP10, MAP16, MAP18, MAP19, MAP21. I say that Romero's Episode 4 maps are better than his Doom 2 ones.

[baddream]

deathbringer said:

Downtown is pretty crap though, but mainly for all those imps in tiny alcoves, must have been even worse before looking up and down was possible
Could be worse though... could be chaingunners up there

Heh, wouldn't that be fun? You could, of course, still shoot them, you just wouldn't be able to see them so easily. But what if you couldn't even shoot them, but they could shoot you? Wouldn't that be even more fun?

In any case, I think that unrealistic limitations can actually make a game more fun to play, one just has to have the right sort of attitude (which, I guess, was mostly the point of my previous post).

After all, the whole idea of games is based on artificial limitations (such as the rules of chess).

[Never_Again]

myk said:

The word gimmicky brings to mind the truck in TNT level 19, the machinery sounds in level 4, or stuff like that.

I wonder sometimes if your posts such as this are not inspired by George Castanza's "the opposite". The truck on map19 is a neat variation of Leo Lim's idea from UAC_DEAD, but I suppose you'll call that level gimmicky just because it's universally acclaimed as a classic. The machinery sounds on map04 greatly contribute to the ambience, but I suppose you don't believe in ambient sounds either and will call Sarge's "Check those corners" and motion tracker beeps in Aliens-TC cheap tricks next. :P

myk said: to me Plutonia has a playability that is comparable to DOOM II's but tougher, TNT's is more uneven and not as enjoyable on the whole.[/B]

To me, TNT is more diversified and universal than Plutonia. The first half of Plutonia is designed perfectly. When you play the second half, you get the feeling it's the same level over and over: Neurosphere, Slayer, The Final Frontier and Anti-Christ. There aren't such lookalikes in TNT. I'm working on the third episode max run now, and I have to say that even Drake O'Brien's much maligned levels are quite playable, and don't look half as bad as some say.

[myk]

Never_Again said:
The truck on map19 is a neat variation of Leo Lim's idea from UAC_DEAD, but I suppose you'll call that level gimmicky just because it's universally acclaimed as a classic.

I can't say UAC Dead is one of my favorite classics, but it's decent and inventive, and deserves its place among the outstanding wads of '94. Although generally, I don't think that particular sort of architecture contributes much to DOOM. The train and the tank in TVR were rather neat, but most of the time sector-based vehicles tend to fail it. In Kama Sutra's great city themed level there's another example of vehicles that look lame (a car or two), but another level has a helicopter that I do like. Not that I hate TNT's level 19 (or TNT as a whole), but if anything is gimmicky it's structures that don't add much to the playability, don't look too good, and aim to produce non-game-specific effects (usually "realism"), as opposed to game mechanics designs primarily (which is what Petersen tended to do). A degree of realism can certainly contribute to the theme of a level, but it must be well integrated and not end up feeling that its trying too hard to impress.

The machinery sounds on map04 greatly contribute to the ambience, but I suppose you don't believe in ambient sounds either and will call Sarge's "Check those corners" and motion tracker beeps in Aliens-TC cheap tricks next. :P

Ambient sounds in DOOM* are somewhat lame because they divert away from the functional value of every sound in the game. Is there any sound in DOOM that isn't also part of the game's input? Unlike in TNT's level 4, the Alien TC sounds are not annoying, though. The music in level 4 is also loud, and both (noisy) things combined don't help. Plus the game is so simple that adding one ambient sound like that to the level makes you feel the lack of any other ambient sounds.

* Another thing that I feel degrades the playing experience in Heretic.

When you play the second half, you get the feeling it's the same level over and over: Neurosphere, Slayer, The Final Frontier and Anti-Christ.

Neurosphere is inspired in The Inmost Dens, Slayer in Circle of Death, and the other two are somewhat like The Living End (more so level 24). Each a great "remix" or tribute of a DOOM II level, yet each with its own challenging character when played.

TNT is made to "show you stuff", Plutonia to be played. Plutonia also manages a theme giving overall consistency, in a parallel way both in how it plays and how it looks (it has a genuine "style"). On the other hand, TNT's quality varies in both departments much like a "community chest" type wad.

I'm working on the third episode max run now, and I have to say that even Drake O'Brien's much maligned levels are quite playable, and don't look half as bad as some say.

Cool. Besides, I'm not telling you to agree with me. Please don't, or else you might falter in your movie attempt, which will be a valuable addition to DOOM's demo scene, that I'm looking forward to.