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Aabra

Skulltag 97D Preview

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The folks over at Skulltag have almost completed the highly anticipated version 97D. They have posted a giant preview of it complete with a trailer. You can download a high quality version of the trailer or watch the low quality version on youtube. 97D promises a slew of features ranging from drastically increased stability to opengl support in Linux. For full details see the thread here.

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exp(x) said:

Source code?


Followed by the big turn off!

Knowing Skulltag, they'll probably never make the source public.

They're idea of supporting linux is just compiling it themselves and releasing the binary. Thats a hit or miss if you ask me.

I was only able to get it working on Ubuntu once. Then it pulled this refusing to start crap and the performance was piss poor the one time it actually ran.

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Is the trailer supposed to make people excited or something? Don't really see the point of it except for something fanboys on the skulltag forums can drool over.

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zap610 said:

Is the trailer supposed to make people excited or something? Don't really see the point of it except for something fanboys on the skulltag forums can drool over.


Trailer is supposed to show off many of 97D's features. If you pay attention there are clips from wads like Demon Eclipse showing off extensive Decorate support as well as 3D floors in Skulltag. There are also clips from Heretic and Hexen including the Heretic Invasion mode which has never been seen before.

KDiZD is also shown running perfectly in a client/server multiplayer port. This is another first. (It always had problems before due to the heavy scripting and decorate.) The trailer looks cool on the surface but if you really look at it closely then there's a lot of interesting things you can figure out about 97D's features by looking at it.

Plus, what's wrong with having a trailer? It's a fun thing to make and look at. :) What's the point in wad makers posting screenshots before they've completed the project? It's all in good fun. 97D will speak for itself when it's released.

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exp(x) said:

Source code?

For a multiplayer-oriented port? Doubtful. ZDaemon was open-sourced at first; it didn't last.

Other than the new gamemodes and the netcode, Skulltag's features can be found in (G)ZDoom, since they're either ported from them or get backported to them. The code may be closed, but you can still get most of it elsewhere.

Also, contrarily to Risen3D, Skulltag does not incorporate GPLed code (which is why FraggleScript support is the one feature that is in GZDoom but not in Skulltag). So there's no legal pressure on ST to open up, contrarily to what happened to R3D.

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Better coop support and bugfixes is all im looking forward to. Everything else is just more ingredients that I'm not even gonna bother with.

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For a multiplayer-oriented port? Doubtful.

Odamex?

Skulltag does not incorporate GPLed code

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when Doom became GPL, that didn't mean "you can use it as GPL if you want, or you can use it under the old license".

With that said, I'm looking forward to 97d, even though I know there won't be any source code accompanying it. :p

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esselfortium said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when Doom became GPL, that didn't mean "you can use it as GPL if you want, or you can use it under the old license".

Source code can exist in public under multiple licenses. Just because id Software released it again under the GPL does not invalidate the previous release.

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Ajapted said:

Source code can exist in public under multiple licenses. Just because id Software released it again under the GPL does not invalidate the previous release.

Ah, okay. I wasn't sure.

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Think about it: If that wasn't the case any free source code would be under constant danger of having the free license revoked.

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JohnnyRancid said:

Better coop support and bugfixes is all im looking forward to. Everything else is just more ingredients that I'm not even gonna bother with.


The bug fixes/stability really is my favorite feature too. By doing so it's given wad authors an unbelievable amount of power. Almost all wads will work now online without the author having to specifically think: "If I use this ACS/Decorate function.... will it work online?" The answer 99% of the time is yes. :)

That being said I love all the other new features as well but this is obviously the big one. To give you guys a rough idea of just *how* big.

Internal Resolved Bugs: 436 topics

That doesn't include the 1197 topics in the public resolved bugs forum although that forum existed pre-97D Development so it's probably only like 100 more or so.

These numbers are also a bit bloated because occasionally a bug has to get reported and fixed 3 times before it's actually fixed/etc so take them with a grain of salt.

The bottom line though really is that there are a lot. :)

You know the internal testers are getting desperate when we get bug reports like this:

Harbringer said:

If impse sprites are in another .wad, It will be unable to execute, and say "Tried to register class 'Impse' more than once.

How to reproduce:

Download (for convenience) Wills' "It only gets worse". Attempt to run it using skulltag.


Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a bug and I'm sure that IMPSE is as dear to me as it is to all of you so it has to get fixed but they're really getting desperate! =D We love our testers so much.

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I just play now Skulltag. I always thought that was a SP like ZDaemon which less people playing. I was very wrong .... This SP assfuking ZDaemon !!!! I don't understand how i not play it before !!!

The only question that i have is .... It can handle MD3 models like GZDoom ? If it can .... how ... guys.... a small preview of a not finished model :
http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lpeh6.png

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esselfortium said:

Odamex?


Last time I launched IDE, player percentages were something like 75% on ZDaemon servers, 25% on Skulltag servers, and 0% on Odamex servers.

ZardoZ said:

The only question that i have is .... It can handle MD3 models like GZDoom ?

Yes it can. Many of the most recent updates on models in GZDoom actually come from Skulltag; Torr Samaho worked a lot on that.

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Gez said:

Last time I launched IDE, player percentages were something like 75% on ZDaemon servers, 25% on Skulltag servers, and 0% on Odamex servers.

Because it's still in development and not fully functional yet? I don't see how this has anything to do with the source code being public.

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Gez said:

Last time I launched IDE, player percentages were something like 75% on ZDaemon servers, 25% on Skulltag servers, and 0% on Odamex servers.

So the argument is that skulltag can justify not releasing the source because they have more players? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

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Gez said:

Last time I launched IDE, player percentages were something like 75% on ZDaemon servers, 25% on Skulltag servers, and 0% on Odamex servers.

Has nothing to do with whether or not the source is available.



ZDaemon wont release the source, because "obviously" that makes the game more vulnerable to attack. But ZDaemon isn't a very fast developed or featured bloated (or rich, whichever way you look at it) port. I'm sure with a little effort and some peeking and poking at the ZDoom 1.2x sources you could make a feature exact replacement for ZDaemon. Regardless, with the current maintainers and adminstrators of ZDaemon, you'll never see the source.

Skulltag OTOH is the port that most people would really like to see the sources to. I've heard excuses from twats and developers alike, and even a developer who is a twat, but it's all bullshit. Some people say the same thing as zdaemon does, that open source opens up the game to vulnerabilities, but as OpenBSD has shown us, with two remote holes in the default install in more than 10 years, this is obvious bullshit. Some have said (and this is most popular amongst the mongs) that the skulltag developers owe nothing to nobody, and they are under no obligation, legal, ethical, or otherwise to release the source. And while legally they are under no obligation to share their work (whilst using others) due to the fun that is zdoom and derivatives licenses, it goes against the spirit of sharing in this community. I've also heard more laughable reasons, like somebody would fork skulltag and everyone would stop playing the main port and woe would be us (which is not even worth a response), but those are the main reasons. And those reasons, however feeble are why you won't see the source for Skulltag. Ever. Even if there was a DoomGL type incident. So there.

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If there are concerns about security that seem beyond the development team's hands in a fully open environment, especially for tournament level games or such, one can add a closed secure module for that purpose, as opposed to closing the whole source, which is an insult to the spirit of Carmack's offering and his intent. This approach would also simplify and strengthen the portability of the engine.

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DooMAD said:

So the argument is that skulltag can justify not releasing the source because they have more players? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

No, the argument is that anyone can create a GPL multiplayer port and use it as a "nuh-huh" retort to comments about multiplayer ports being closed. But that nuh-huh retort won't be valid until said GPL port becomes a major player (for as much as anything can be a major player is so niche a sector).

The major player here is ZDaemon, which went from open to closed. Skulltag, no matter how edgier it is, is the minor player. Odamex is not even a player yet.

John Smith said:

Has nothing to do with whether or not the source is available.

Depends. Who still play csDoom or the old, still open versions of ZDaemon?

John Smith said:

ZDaemon wont release the source, because "obviously" that makes the game more vulnerable to attack.

I'm not really a proponent of security through obscurity, but that's the devs' policy.

John Smith said:

But ZDaemon isn't a very fast developed or featured bloated (or rich, whichever way you look at it) port.

The bloating features in Skulltag are what? The game modes (Invasion, Capture the Flag, Skulltag, Survival, etc.) and the extra actors (monsters, weapons, power-ups including runes, and decorations). Everything else is just like in GZDoom. And the netcode, which is the first reason given for closing the source.

I'm not sure the actors are really that interesting to look at for a programmer, especially given that they're being exported to DECORATE -- and DECORATE lumps are by their very nature open-sourced.

John Smith said:

Regardless, with the current maintainers and adminstrators of ZDaemon, you'll never see the source.

And how is Skulltag different in that respect?

John Smith said:

Some have said (and this is most popular amongst the mongs) that the skulltag developers owe nothing to nobody, and they are under no obligation, legal, ethical, or otherwise to release the source.

That's the thing. It sure would be nice to have the possibility to look at the code, but the decision to open or close it rests solely in Carnevil's hands. He doesn't have to open it. And from what little I know of the guy, trolling/whining about the source in every Skulltag PR thread is not going to change his mind on the subject.

As for a DoomGL incident, it would have to be severe enough to affect the hard drives of Carn, Torr, Rive, Graf and Randy (plus wherever the secret private ST SVN is hosted) at the same time. The risk is quite small, I would think.

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Gez said:As for a DoomGL incident, it would have to be severe enough to affect the hard drives of Carn, Torr, Rive, Graf and Randy (plus wherever the secret private ST SVN is hosted) at the same time. The risk is quite small, I would think. [/B]


You forgot Supergod. He's the guy that usually compiles it on all the different Linux distros. (With the exception of Ubuntu.) Metalhead and myself also have access to the source but I doubt either of us keep up to date versions of it on our computers.

I was expecting this type of response over here from those select few members of the community who are really vocal regarding this type of thing but I am happy that most of the Doom community really does appreciate the work we've put into this. One day I hope the nay sayers come around and can appreciate Skulltag for what it is.... a fantastic Doom port that's been created by the entire community.

I would like to express my gratitude to all the testers who helped make this possible. While everybody may not appreciate the job you did, there are many who do. Thank you.

To all who love to scream at us... we understand your point of view and appreciate your comments. We only ask that you try and look at the port from a gamer's perspective every once in a while instead of a coder's.

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Gez said:

As for a DoomGL incident, it would have to be severe enough to affect the hard drives of Carn, Torr, Rive, Graf and Randy (plus wherever the secret private ST SVN is hosted) at the same time. The risk is quite small, I would think.


Only careless people lose data due to HD crashes.

Every single project I work on, be it at work or privately, is stored in some SCM system, mostly SVN (because it's the best. ;)) and the really important stuff is also backed up on some external media.

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Gez said:
Everything else is just like in GZDoom. And the netcode, which is the first reason given for closing the source.

Right, so for a clean release, making the source of the engine available*, and offering the especially secured portions separately as a plug-in or module makes more sense. On the side the team (or any contributors) could eventually code a free module that's not guaranteed to be as safe, but should be useful for modding, custom compilations, and private or casual servers. If the free module were to become as robust and secure as the closed one, it could eventually also replace it for general purposes.

A completely closed release gives bad publicity, shits on Carmack's generosity, generates paranoia, furthers hostility between different online projects, and makes it hard for people on various Linux variants and custom operating systems to get the thing running.

* It's mostly already available through GZDoom, for the most part, anyway.

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Aabra said:

To all who love to scream at us... we understand your point of view and appreciate your comments.

Who the fuck is "we"? Certainly not Carnevil; I know damn well how much he disdains Linux. I must say that I find the recent addition of coders and people with access to the code rather amusing, though. I never predicted Carn would consider anyone besides himself worthy.

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exp(x) said:
I never predicted Carn would consider anyone besides himself worthy.

It looks like it was similar to Ling's experience with Doomworld; leaving it in other people's hands to more or less retire, but eventually rejoining anyway.

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