Which elements would you like to change in Doom and which you would never?

[Optimus]

This came in my mind yesterday when I killed another spider-boss with my double shotgun.

So things I would like to change:

- Why is the final Spider-Boss easier to beat than the Cyberdemon boss? Not only it struggles in small spaces, moves slowly and has a big area of hit, it's also harder to do damage than the Cyberdemon because the second if he splatters your face with 1-2 rockets you are dead no matter if you are near or far away or the rocket hits the wall. And the Cyberdemon has almost the double energy than the spider. I would make the cyberdemon less stronger in health and the spider would maybe have some rapid plasma gun.

- The visplane limitations

- Lost souls have way too much health for their kind, annoying and makes you waste ammo. They usually need too good placed shotgun shots. One would be great.

- Having 99% energy or 49/50 shotgun shells, passing over health package or shell box and wasting it,. I would prefer you would take only parts of the ammo and the box will be still there with less ammo inside. Or take the health packs with you and use them from inventory. Ok,. I see that even today most FPS still waste the ammo when you pass above it regardless if you miss 1 or 10 shells. I don't know why this happens, why most FPS still prefer this approach. Although not a serious problem and sometimes makes it challenging to jump over/try not to touch ammo/health that I might need later and have a strategy on this.

- Some of the levels in Episode 2/3. E1 rules!

What I wouldn't change:

- Double shotgun. Change through double/regular shotgun depending on the enemy type and ammo reservation or shooting distance is the way I enjoy to play and the SSG is a great addition.

- Cacodemons :)

- The music/gfx/monsters/atmosphere

- I may think more..

[Jodwin]

I wouldn't change anything, but I'd add more weak monsters that don't drop ammo. Imps alone aren't sufficient.

[printz]

I'd make the gunshots more powerful and the pistol sound stronger, I'd make the Spiderdemon act like a real full-game boss, I'd add multilayered map support (linked portals of Eternity may be the answer).

I'd add three new types of Demons: invisible Demon, no-clipping Spectre, no-clipping invisible Demon.
I'd also add a stalking ghost monster, that attacks you and teleports away, then returns, and so on. Has to be scary, use proper noises.

I'd like to see Cutman's Ghouls used in standard Doom levels, toned down a bit to be balanced.

I'd make intermission maps of Doom 1 mandatory in Doom 2.

[scwiba]

This is an interesting question...and while there are a number of things that I didn't like about Doom, I think it's too close to my heart as is to wish that any of those things were actually changed.

I will agree that the Mastermind was a letdown, but all the bosses in Doom were almost expected to be a joke, so it didn't bother me too much. Maybe just make bosses immune to the BFG, so you can't one-shot the final boss.

Jodwin said:

I wouldn't change anything, but I'd add more weak monsters that don't drop ammo. Imps alone aren't sufficient.

Definitely this. I always felt like some small, fast melee enemy might have fit. Like a zergling or a dog-like creature. Maybe just possessed attack dogs. And I thought there seemed to be a gap in terms of flying creatures. There was no low-end kind of enemy -- something like the Heretic imp may have worked. But I don't know if either of these would feel very at home in Doom.

As for levels, E3M2 is probably the lowest point of the game in my opinion, and I wouldn't even change that one.

I guess the lesson here is that I like Doom pretty much just the way it is.

[Intel17]

I'd keep it the way it is -- there's no point in messing with perfection.

[Vegeta]

I'd change
-More hit points for the Spider
-Cyber and Spider, inmune to Plasma and BFG
-DOOM 2 maps, better texture choice, city maps looking closer to city scenarios, DOOM 1 like realism, detail.
-I'd replace the Icon of Sin, with a proper boss.
-New bosses for Final DOOM, and Thy Flesh..

I'd keep the same.
Everything else

[myk]

Nothing, because I'm not in '93/'94, and changing something we've played so much is not a good idea. If I were to change the behavior of the game in any way, it would be for new levels designed for those changes, or with changes that suit the new levels.

[Reckoner]

Optimus said:

- Lost souls have way too much health for their kind, annoying and makes you waste ammo. They usually need too good placed shotgun shots. One would be great.

That's how Doom 64 does it, and I agree that it is much better that way. The Lost Souls attack much more frequently to compensate, but they only need one shotgun blast.

myk said:

Nothing, because I'm not in '93/'94

Worried about the butterfly effect?

[myk]

Reckoner said:
Worried about the butterfly effect?

Not at all. I just don't have a time machine at hand!

[Chow Yun Thin]

I'd change quite a few things about Doom.

Levels:

I'd make each episode have an overworld where you can pick and choose what level. This overworld has multiple portals from which packs of hellspawn are teleporting . There are no pickups of any kind, so you have to watch where you're going and if you want to kill some hellspawn. The levels are represented by prominent buildings with a switch on its front door that will teleport you into its separate world. When you hit the exit switch in a level, it deactivates one of the overworld portals and produces a golden pentagram in its place to collect. As more portals are shut down, more powerful monsters start coming in through the remaining ones.

Once you collect enough golden pentagrams, start looking for an obvious receptacle thingie to put them in. Once there are enough pentagrams in it, the boss level appears next to it.

It's simplistic compared to Hexen-style hubs, but each level is completely contained within itself, i.e. keycards in one level don't work in another, plus it doesn't have the frustrating "this switch opened another door in another level" game mechanic of Hexen.

Weapons:

I'd swap the pistol for the Rifle. It never made sense to me that the ammo dropped by the former marines could be used by the pistol. Speaking of which, the former marines should drop the rifle instead of the ammo. I don't see former sergeants dropping four shells instead of the Shotgun, nor former commandoes dropping an ammo clip instead of the Chaingun.

All firearms must be reloaded.

Rifle: 30 shots/mag, same ROF as Chaingun in original Doom
Shotgun: 8 shots/mag, reloads one shell at a time, a tighter cone of fire
Super Shotgun: same save for reloading one shell at a time
Chaingun: 200 shots/mag, basically the Quake 2 Chaingun
Rocket Launcher: 3 shots/mag, same as usual
Plasma Rifle: 50 shots/mag, same ROF as Rifle, a bit of splash damage like the Q3 Plasma Gun. However, the Plasma Rifle must have 50 shots in it at all times. If it doesn't, it will constantly reload from cells in reserve (signified by the strange animation the player does after releasing the trigger in original Doom). If it has less than 50 shots and there are no cells in reserve, the Plasma Rifle will discharge until empty.
BFG: one shot consisting of 50 cells in its magazine. Otherwise same as usual.

Monsters:

Gibable monsters have chunks flying around instead of being confined to the sprite it originated from (Heretic style).

The former marines need a boost in health, accuracy and ROF. The former sergeants need the same health as an Imp.

Killing a Lost Soul will drop a Health Potion. My rationale for it is killing the Lost Soul is redeeming it and it leaves behind a small bit of itself, i.e. a Health Potion, as thanks. Of course, it makes Pain Elementals a little more friendly provided you've got the ammo.

Killing a Revenant drops a single rocket, while an Arachnotron drops a small cell pack. Killing a Mancubus causes it to explode like a rocket.

The Baron needs to be larger than the Knight.

I'm not sure, but I think most of them have already been done in mods. I suppose if I had the patience and time to code, I'd make one for myself.

[Nuxius]

So things I would like to change:
- Never hire Sandy Petersen.
- Make the pistol 'feel' stronger.
- Make the Spider Mastermind more powerful.


What I wouldn't change:
- Everything else.

[EarthQuake]

Nuxius said:

So things I would like to change:
- Never hire Sandy Petersen.
- Make the pistol 'feel' stronger.
- Make the Spider Mastermind more powerful.


What I wouldn't change:
- Everything else.

Hi, I'm EarthQuake. You must be my long lost twin.

[Necros20]

The only things I'd think of changing would be to make a cooler Doom 2 end boss and maybe even add more new weapons besides the SSG. Other than that I think Doom is perfectly fine the way it is, and BTW what's with all this dissing of Sandy Peterson?

[EarthQuake]

Necros20 said:

and BTW what's with all this dissing of Sandy Peterson?

Ever wonder why like 90% of Doom players think Doom II levels suck compared to Doom? I bet if it wasn't for Tom Hall, half of Doom's maps would have sucked too.

Of course, my opinion is irrelevant.

[myk]

Petersen actually finished what the id kids couldn't complete themselves, and also came up with the ideas for most of the DOOM II monsters. Take him out and you've got an unfinished DOOM, and who knows if any DOOM II at all.

[Jim Rainer]

I'd actually like to change it to follow how the Doom Bible had it planned out.

[GreyGhost]

I'm annoyed by the hellspawn's total immunity to nukage. I'd remove the immunities from possessed humans and make other creatures selectively or partially immune to different types of nukage. Of course that would mean boosting the AI so they can decide whether to cross or avoid a nukage area.

[myk]

It's easy to do that; just apply monster blocking lines before any nukage. I'm sure they didn't care to do that for one because it would have degraded gameplay. Also, the game seems to hint the green slime is associated with the demonification. Zombiemen are spattered with it, and the manual says "slime and other radioactive waste". Not just radioactive waste, but some mysterious "slime".

To all the "I would haves" that involve making the game more complicated, you would have had to argue with John Carmack's sense of minimalism and optimization. It's the main reason the unused Bible stuff was ditched, by the way.

[Lizardcommando]

What I would change:

-Make the Spider Mastermind harder to beat by giving it more attacks and more health.
-Make different sprites for the Hell Knight.
-Make the Baron of Hell look and sound more menacing and tougher.
-Add some new Imp-like enemies.
-Add some new Demon-like enemies.
-Add room-over-room technology (I can't think of the proper term for it) a la every single FPS after Quake (did Duke 3D have true room-over-over technology?).
-Make Evilution and Plutonia not so insane?

What I wouldn't change:

-The level design in Episode 1.
-The new textures in Evilution and Plutonia.
-Everything else should remain the same.

[Optimus]

I actually liked the Doom2 levels :)

[Captain Red]

A massive overhaul.

I'd give it a plot. not the way half life dose it, something closer to super metroid would work wonders. Make the maps resemble real places (duke 3d style rather then half-life) make the episodes in to really big hexen style hubs (with many monsters, weapons and bosses being unique to an episode). Make monsters drop ammo instead of weapons, and have the player really hunt for weapons (and bosses!) to see them all (agian think super metroid's powers) make the player slower, carry less and need to reload, make the rocket launcher more powerful but slower, make the BFG hurt you of you try to pull any of those 'BFG tricks'. add more interesting objectives then find the 'key and push the button'. possibly add some inventory micro management... hexen style randomly respawning monsters except they type random as well. add most of the stuff gzdoom added, add the psx music and sounds and... alot of the stuff I did for doom+

I'd keep the monsters... though change some thongs about them.

in short make doom into the beautiful child of metroid fusion, system shock 2, hexen and doom.

myk said:
To all the "I would haves" that involve making the game more complicated, you would have had to argue with John Carmack's sense of minimalism and optimization. It's the main reason the unused Bible stuff was ditched, by the way. [/B]

minimalism is fine, but why dose doom have to be abstract as well? it has always been my biggest problem with the game.

but I'd say people here (including myself) are talking about how they'd remake doom, rather then how they'd invent it

[Ichor]

The only thing I'd change is E2M9.

[_bruce_]

Wouldn't change anyhting....
...except gib-anim. for every monster.

I'm pretty happy that they ditched the doom-bible and made a straightforward shooter.
Sandy's levels are among my faves - his "sandbox"design gave the whole thing a different feel.

Could someone explain why Sandy's levels are so "bad"?

[printz]

Lizardcommando said:

a la every single FPS after Quake (did Duke 3D have true room-over-over technology?).

Dark Forces has rooms over rooms and came in the same year as Hexen, which hasn't. I suspect DF is older than Hexen too.

I'm rather sure Duke has 3d maps, perhaps not as clear as Quake.

I would have the Wolfenstein SS gunmen replaced with communists.

[_bruce_]

printz said:

Dark Forces has rooms over rooms and came in the same year as Hexen, which hasn't. I suspect DF is older than Hexen too.

I'm rather sure Duke has 3d maps, perhaps not as clear as Quake.

I would have the Wolfenstein SS gunmen replaced with communists.

You can only stack two rooms above each other in Buildgames(Blood, Duke, etc.).
There's also shearing when you cross the "3D" barrier from one room to the other.
Which maps in DF have rooms above rooms?

[ellmo]

myk said:

Petersen actually finished what the id kids couldn't complete themselves, and also came up with the ideas for most of the DOOM II monsters. Take him out and you've got an unfinished DOOM, and who knows if any DOOM II at all.

Exactly. In Doom 1, Petersen made maps E1M4 and E1M8, and all episode 2 and 3 maps. I'm not sure what we would get (and when) if he didn't put so much work into it.

The fact that his work is rated rather poorly through all this years, is another thing. But his work is there.

Lizardcommando said:

What I would change:

-Add some new Imp-like enemies.
-Add some new Demon-like enemies.
[/b]

Oh GOD, please no more Colored imps and Demons!

[Mithral_Demon]

Hmmmn....

I'd change the Icon of Sin into some menacingly huge monster that forms a blue ball of light which produces a Spawn Box and tosses it somewhere near you, and have a melee attack. o-o

Definetly change Hell Knight and Baron sprites, too abused.
Undead Humans have rifles, change to a pistol like the human.
Add a Undead Marine (Much like you) that has a set of itself (everything below BFG).
More hellish monsters, much like a Plasma Demon.
Spectre- Give it a -notarget like setting where your weapons can't lock on with other monsters, meaning chainsaw cant keep you in one place, but it still dies as fast as normal demon.
More mobility and much higher health for Spider Master.

LEave everything else, not caring about levels.

[printz]

_bruce_ said:

Which maps in DF have rooms above rooms?

Nearly all. It's noticed right in mission 1. After you explore most of it, you can open the datapad map, switch layers and notice how rooms change within the same place.

I doubt there's a limit with the number of rooms on the same spot, but also I barely noticed any visible sectors-over-sectors (maybe overlapped sectors is the trick after all and it would require the player not to see both of them...).

Jodwin said:

I'd add more weak monsters that don't drop ammo. Imps alone aren't sufficient.

Why exactly aren't imps sufficient? I name as weak monsters the Demons, Spectres and Lost Souls as well. They just needed more health to survive for their less than missile attacks.

So how would other weak monsters that don't drop ammo act like?

[Torn]

HWGuy said:

Weapons:

I'd swap the pistol for the Rifle. It never made sense to me that the ammo dropped by the former marines could be used by the pistol. Speaking of which, the former marines should drop the rifle instead of the ammo. I don't see former sergeants dropping four shells instead of the Shotgun, nor former commandoes dropping an ammo clip instead of the Chaingun.

All firearms must be reloaded.

Rifle: 30 shots/mag, same ROF as Chaingun in original Doom
Shotgun: 8 shots/mag, reloads one shell at a time, a tighter cone of fire
Super Shotgun: same save for reloading one shell at a time
Chaingun: 200 shots/mag, basically the Quake 2 Chaingun
Rocket Launcher: 3 shots/mag, same as usual
Plasma Rifle: 50 shots/mag, same ROF as Rifle, a bit of splash damage like the Q3 Plasma Gun. However, the Plasma Rifle must have 50 shots in it at all times. If it doesn't, it will constantly reload from cells in reserve (signified by the strange animation the player does after releasing the trigger in original Doom). If it has less than 50 shots and there are no cells in reserve, the Plasma Rifle will discharge until empty.
BFG: one shot consisting of 50 cells in its magazine. Otherwise same as usual.

Welcome to like 95 % of all shooters. That would take away the nice arcade feeling of doom, and just make it another generic shooter.
I dunno what I would like to change about doom, maybe just that the spider demon was different and harder. Maybe it also shot plasma balls like the arachtrons.

[Vermil]

printz said:
Why exactly aren't imps sufficient? I name as weak monsters the Demons, Spectres and Lost Souls as well. They just needed more health to survive for their less than missile attacks.

So how would other weak monsters that don't drop ammo act like? [/B]

I would agree with that. The Imp, Demon, Spectre and Lost Soul cover missile, melee, stealth and er... charging. Within the sort's of abilities that the original Doom bad guys have and without overlapping the stronger demon's, how would a new weak demon function?