My First Public Map (Doom 1)

[FrozenNemesis]

Hey all. I've finally gotten a map to the point where I feel good about releasing it for criticism. Being my first half-way decent map, I'm really looking forward to hearing what other people think of it. I've given it to one of my friends to play and he says he really liked it.

cwad4 version 1: http://files.filefront.com/cwad4wad+Public+Beta+1/;10081264;/fileinfo.html
cwad4 version 2: http://files.filefront.com/cwad4wad+Public+Beta+2/;10081265;/fileinfo.html

Let me know what you think. It's for Doom 1 (not Ultimate, though as far as Doom/UDoom wads go I guess you can use it for either) and the map is on E1M1. I have configured enemies for all difficulties as well. This is the first map in a full-scale megawad I have planned. I made this with the intention of being vanilla compatible, though I have only tested it in the latest version of PRBoom+ (w/o compatibility turned on). I'm more concerned with getting it to work on a modern engine before I go for that "authentic" look. :-P

I am aware that certain sections of the level can be very difficult on Ultra-Violence, but I remember when I thought that Ultra-Violence was something special, something hard, compared to the standard level difficulty it is for most players (myself included) so I was trying to add that extra kick to make it something special again. That being said, I have only tested this map on UV, so I don't know exactly how easy it is on other difficulties.

(Note: I kind of screwed up while playing with stuff for E1M9, so don't go there. Your engine will crash.)

[Edit] It occurred to me after I posted this that it would probably be a good idea to do the standard zip + txt distribution. I fully intend to do so when I release the final version of this wad. It is currently a WIP. If anyone thinks I should still package it up nice and neat I'll be sure to do so. [/Edit]

[Searcher]

I just grabbed it and have not yet looked at it.

Hint: please add a text file and zip it all up. If I come across the map in a few years on my system how am I going to know who made it?

[duvel]

Interesting first map. The good news is that you have not made an ass of yourself. It's actually completable and doesn't look like total shit. I loved that trap at the end, too. Always liked exit traps ever since I played TNT the first time.

Now for criticism: The whole map is kind of sparse and drawn out. The maze portion itself is a bit daunting and drab, and there is practically no detail anywhere. The ammo seemed well planned, but on UV it just gets old firing at hordes of imps with just the pistol; why did you put the shotgun at the very end of the level? For single levels make sure secrets get some use. And the area surrounding the blue key was misused, as there could have been another fight there, or at least some decoration. I also question why you would need to go through a maze to hit the switch for the blue key's door. It's a bit of a winding stretch, and would be annoying for someone who skips going up the stairs for the hallway.

Summary: more detail, more monsters/weapons, better layouts.

Also, if you're going to release this to /idgames/, zip it up and make a txt file.

[FrozenNemesis]

I can see being low on detail. That's one of the things I've always had a problem with. I was trying to style it as more of an E1 based map, but even E1 did have more detail.

One thing I've found particularly disappointing with most wads is that one of the first things you pick up is the shotgun, causing the pistol to go almost unused. Adding to the fact that in Doom 1, the shotgun is easily the most useful weapon, it makes for a very simple wad (I expect this is a large reason why Doom 1 wads are not terribly common). I thought it might be a real challenge to take down your enemies with the least used weapon, and it is, though I agree it does get a bit monotonous, especially in the courtyard fight.

There's actually a bit of a story to the blue key room and why it's as empty as it is. Originally I was trying to introduce a storytelling element (similar to that of Doom 1 and Lost Episodes of Doom). Your marine enters the UAC complex expecting a regular day on the job. What he finds however is a bunch of zombies and strange creatures roaming around. Well, when you entered the little hut with the blue key you had a "vision" of hell ("vision" in the sense that you got teleported there briefly) in which you saw a baron flanked by four cacodemons. This causes your marine you realize these strange creatures are demons.

It seemed like a pretty good storyline, but the "cinematic" I had worked up which, while cool, interrupted gameplay too much, and if you weren't paying attention, had the possibility of dealing massive amounts of damage to you. So I removed the scene and just left the blue key area as is.

As for placing the switch at the end of the maze, I knew I wanted to have a maze similar to the one in E1M2 but couldn't really think of a viable reason for putting one there (the one in E1M2 was completely optional, but I much prefer to have some incentive to enter such a place). I also hadn't yet found a good place to open the blue key hut, so I combined the two.

Placing the shotgun at the end was really more of a gimmick; a reward for finding the yellow key, especially since I'm usually pretty low on ammo by the time I get there, and that exit trap can be pretty rough with no ammo, even with the berserk pack.

One thing to remember is that while this is currently a single level, it is intended to be E1M1 in a full 27 level megawad.

I have already written up a text file for the and will include it in the next release.

[The Lag]

attempting to make a map challenging by making the player use only the pistol is a bad idea because the general consensus is that the pistol is not fun to use AT ALL.

[Death-Destiny]

...my bad for this blank post, hit the wrong key... read the next one. =/

[Death-Destiny]

FrozenNemesis, I've played your map, so here's some crits I hope will help:

I liked your style of architecture and didn't have any problem with it. The thing I think would make it look even better is some little details like others have said. E1 was pretty simplistic detail-wise, but there are still some things you can use to get that "authentic" feel. Some things you can use are windows to other areas, rooms open to the sky, some more height variance, both in decoations (a computer screen on the ceiling?) and in layout, Some old-school irregularly-shaped sectors, and maybe a few pedestals/depressions, stairs, and acid pools with paths through them and cages.

Gameplay-wise, I actually liked the idea of a pistol-only map and I think your map is well suited to it, but I agree that it was mis-executed and came out a little dull. Why not put say the berserk in the beginning, put in a few more bulldemons to keep the enemies from being too spread out, and put some number of zombies on ledges/cages if you still want pistol use. Pistol-only levels are very hard to make, but these might help if you want to keep at it.

As for the secrets, I get the vibe you'd only find them all if you activated every linedef in the map/ knew where they were already...

Anyway, I like your mapping style and I expect you can compose some pretty neat levels if you work at it a bit more. I look forward to seeing more from you. =)

[FrozenNemesis]

I tried to add a few irregularly-shaped sectors, but it was very difficult to get the textures to align correctly and so I opted for that design instead. Secrets like the berserk pack and the yellow door I agree that those aren't exactly easy to find if you're not looking for them, and even then... I'll see what I can do about that.

Have there been any successful and semi-difficult pistol-only levels that I could try out and see how they did things? I'm not sure I've ever played a pistol only level.

[Grazza]

FrozenNemesis said:

Have there been any successful and semi-difficult pistol-only levels that I could try out and see how they did things? I'm not sure I've ever played a pistol only level.

Kind of, but most of the ones I can think of gave the player a berserk pack quite early on, so they were more "Tyson" levels than pistol levels:

Eternal map14
Hell Revealed map09
Kama Sutra map12
STRAIN map31

In the last three of those you get some bigger weapons, but for much of the time you are using smaller weapons, either because the weapons appear late on, or there is only a little ammo.

[purist]

I played through your level a few times and I enjoyed it. I must admit killing groups of imps and demons with a pistol isn't the best fun to be had in Doom but it certainly whets the appetite for the shotgun.

Once I'd figured out where the secrets were I ran through the courtyard area, picked up the shotgun, then took out the imps from lower ground.

I'd also like to say good on you for starting a MegaWad and for not caving in and setting the shotgun as the default weapon. It gets taken for granted in too many WADs in my opinion.

[FrozenNemesis]

Well, I've taken all your guy's suggestions into account and am working on a new version of this map. Same basic layout, but recreated from scratch and with much more detail and better monster situations. Also, the maze has been completely redesigned and (assuming I populate it correctly, which I haven't done yet) is much better. Currently two secrets, with much nicer and more creative placement of both, exist as well as one easter egg! I'm really looking forward to the criticism on this next release. All I have left to do is various thing placement, the blue key room, and the exit room. Considering my laptop doesn't particularly feel like charging right now and is about to die, chances are I'll get it up either later tonight (if I can get my laptop to play nice) or tomorrow.

[FrozenNemesis]

Alright, I've uploaded the latest version of my wad. The file can be located at http://files.filefront.com/cwad4wad+Public+Beta+2/;10081265;/fileinfo.html. I've also updated the first post to contain both the first (now including text file!) and second version file links. Let me know what you think.

[Death-Destiny]

Wow, now that's a lot better. I could tell just by opening the first door that this version would be much improved. =D I can't complain about the architecture, layout, or detail to any significance... keep it up!

The gameplay doesn't seem half bad either. I actually think the map is more fun with the pistol than with the melee weapons, which is a good sign. I've got a few more suggestions though that could further improve the map. I still think some of the imp fights were a bit drawn out. I think it would be fun perhaps to put some exploding barrels nearby large groups of imps to give the player a more interesting way to kill them and, perhaps in the final imp trap, teleport in a lone cacodemon for them to infight with? Also, if you want, you can put shotgun zombies in the map so long as you put them somewhere the player can't get to to use their weapon.

Overall, I'd say further improvements are a matter of personal preference. Any complaints you get about not having a shotgun are probably just because people aren't used to that. I'd say you've got a perfectly workable map and a good start to your public mapping career. Good job! =)

[Creaphis]

I haven't looked at your map yet, but after reading other people's comments, there's two things I want to say:

1. Don't plan on including your first maps in a megawad. By the time you've had the practice that making 27 maps gives you, your earliest maps will be lower quality than what you're currently capable of, so you'll want to throw them out anyway.

2. The shotgun in Doom and the SSG in Doom 2 are the default weapons, and severely overused. You're certainly right about that. But, if you want to avoid the cliche weapon choices, you don't have to force the player to tyson the entire map. Instead, you could give the player 40 shots with a plasma rifle, or 3 rockets to fire, while avoiding the shotgun entirely. Some very interesting levels could be made where the pistol and the RL are the only weapon choices - I'm already tempted to try to make one...

[Death-Destiny]

Creaphis said:

1. Don't plan on including your first maps in a megawad. By the time you've had the practice that making 27 maps gives you, your earliest maps will be lower quality than what you're currently capable of, so you'll want to throw them out anyway.

Now, I don't think that's entirely true. I'd encourage attempting making a megaWAD for your first maps. That's how I learned to map way back when. This gives practice with things like consistancy, progression, themes, etc. that aren't necessary for a single map. Now, I agree that you wouldn't want to actually release this "practice" megaWAD, but it's still a good idea to try it early on so you know what you're doing later.

[Jodwin]

I only tried the newer version, but I don't think it's too bad with only the pistol. The map isn't too long to feel too dragged out with just the pistol (see KDiZD map 1). Only thing that really stands out is that it's 100 % linear. Maybe you could add some extra rooms somewhere with some small goodies, like health and armor bonuses or something.

Good luck with the wad, there's been especially many E1 replacements so making something that would stand out from the bunch might not easy, but certainly possible. And you don't necessarily need exceptional quality for that, interesting ideas and concepts themselves are often enough.

[Creaphis]

Fair enough. I'm just saying that a megawad that includes practice maps wouldn't be consistent in quality.

[FrozenNemesis]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm really happy with the way this map has turned out. I think, since everything works so well in this map right now, I'll leave it as is and implement some more variety (as far as being linear goes) in my next map.

A megawad is generally a big project so I can see why it wouldn't usually be suggested as a starting point. However, I think it may actually be better than doing single maps. When you do a single map, you have to worry about making it challenging, fun, possible, difficult, etc. all in one map. As a result it is nearly impossible to make a really good, short, single map, and long maps have a tendency to get tiresome after a while, even if they are very good quality.

If you do a megawad, you can build up your difficulty and challenge over a series of maps. Also, your maps no longer have to be completable from a pistol start (since you'll have all the weapons that came in the maps you made before it).

As for the quality, that's to be expected anyway. It generally doesn't matter how good you are at mapping, making 27 maps is going to make you even better at it. As a result, it doesn't matter if you're starting with your first map or your hundreth map, the 27th map in your megawad will probably be of much higher quality than the 1st map (assuming you make them in order that is).

Thanks for all the criticism guys. I'm really excited about this wad and I'll keep you all up to date. Here's a quick question, should I make a new topic for my second map, or should I just keep posting in this topic?

[Death-Destiny]

FrozenNemesis said:

Here's a quick question, should I make a new topic for my second map, or should I just keep posting in this topic?

I'd keep it in this thread. Just rename it to "WIP - New Doom1 Mapset" or something like that, which is accomplished by editing your very first post and changing the subject line to what you want. =)

[gggmork]

Instead, you could give the player 40 shots with a plasma rifle, or 3 rockets to fire, while avoiding the shotgun entirely.

But then your possible enemies are limited to those that don't drop such weapons unless they're on unreachable ledges or something.

I played the map and thought it was too easy short and simplistic for my preferences anyway.

[esselfortium]

I'm not aware of any enemies that drop plasma rifles or rocket launchers. ;)

[Creaphis]

It's not impossible to make a map with only sparing use of shotgun zombies.

[gggmork]

Its limiting is all, or chaingunners too (and if only 1 chaingunner drops a gun, then no zombiemen either as they drop ammo for that gun). So basically imps, lost souls and demons as lower class enemies, limited hitscanners. Maybe being careful with arch viles too since if there's not much danger a player might purposely make them resurrect the same shotgunner 27 times. That might be cool if cybers dropped rocket launchers actually, not like 2 rockets will do much.

[purist]

Just played your updated version. I liked the original but there were some big improvements in the update, which made it better still. I'm looking forward to seeing what your 27th map will be like :)

On the subject of the megawad I think you've got the right idea. In my opinion, it's much better to have a gradual progression of better weapons and tougher monsters as you get through the levels. What the point of having a megawad with everything Doom has to give you in the first map, then repeated 27-32 times?