Heretic: Treasure Chest - PLEASE FILL IN SLOTS!

[Creaphis]

Vermil: Thanks, I'm glad somebody was able to track down the cause of that problem. I never would have thought of name conflicts. Of course, this wad is still not quite vanilla compatible - someone needs to fix the transparent textures via the methods Essel described. This should be straight-forward but fairly monotonous. I don't want to volunteer just yet. Edit: and textures that are meant to tile need to be brought to a height of 128 pixels, and etc.

If everyone maps according to what sky texture they need to match the their theme to, I think that might be good enough as far as thematic unity is concerned. For example, I'm interested in making a level with a small medieval outpost and a lava cave. Naturally, this shouldn't be underneath the ocean and the giant glass dome of episode three. This would be best suited to the sky of episode 2, so... I'll claim e2m4 before the whole episode is taken.

I plan to map so that Smite-meister is already a challenge, but black plague will remain possible.

[magicsofa]

You can do what you wish with anything I submit.

I did have first episode in mind when I made e1m2, which is why it only has two weapons

[esselfortium]

Regarding name conflicts, it's okay to have textures and flats with the same name (DOOM.WAD has both textures and flats named STEP1 and STEP2), but not the patches themselves and flats, as vanilla doesn't like multiple graphic lumps having the same name, or something like that.

[Artillery]

I claimed e2m9, but it can be any secret level. The idea I have is to make a level "different". Something slightly bonkers, refreshing, and worth discovering. I was thinking about naming it "Clairvoyance", so it'll have something trippy and surreal going on with design.

Anyway, we'll see when it gets finished, but I'm 100% sure it won't "fit" anywhere. That's what secret levels are for.

[magicsofa]

Well apparently you ruined the secret

[Artillery]

magicsofa said:

Well apparently you ruined the secret

Nah, you won't know what it is until it gets done. Right now, even I don't know how it's gonna turn out.

[Creaphis]

I'm planning something a little bonkers too, to be honest.

[magicsofa]

Sometimes the best way to create a map is to just...um...follow your heart, as it were.

If you allow the architecture to "build" itself the level becomes much more natural (and less confusing). If you don't have a pre-set idea about what everything should be like, you can let one idea follow into the next, giving the map a definite flow.

Anyway, my e2m5 is gonna be a little crazy too, although I chose that slot so I could make a "catacombs" themed map.

By the way, I'm thinking of a new name for e1m2...which reminds me that there's a graphic for every level title. If nobody volunteered to create these yet, I'll totally do it.

[Alter]

My E2M2 will be "The Crater" themed a lot, it will have loads of open caves, lava etc.

[Lord_Z]

I'm happy that things are starting to come together. The map list looks a lot better than it did when this topic was started and the idea of new graphics already is fantastic.

I forgot about how the episode 3 sky was underwater, but it seemed to work with my map. It does not matter to me either, if the maps are moved around as long as we don't lose any.

[Torn]

Well, I don't have internet at home at the moment. So I can't do much about the original maps. But I don't remember I said I gave up this project as the leader. But when I get online I can provide a host for the project, if that's okay. If I make a host for this project, it will probaly be something like http://www.torn-net.dk/htc. However I fear, I have to reregister the domain again.

This version of my e1m1 is the old one and it really lacks some details. Also I would like kaiser's map to at e3m7 or something like that, it is so large that it would suit as the last level imho. This project wasn't tended as a "Heretic Flashback", as I already have a flashback project. It would more meant as a community project for anyone who wanted to do a level for a Heretic project. :)

[Snarboo]

I'd like to join this project, so sign me up for E1M3. :)

[Artillery]

Okay, I have a good idea.

As of now, we have a lot of people working on the project already. When I joined in, I knew that there's going to be conflicts of interests, which is why I pushed my map slot to e4m5, because I joined in lately.

To me, the most reasonable thing to do would be to finally open up the episodes 4 and 5. Why? Because as of now, I don't think it's terribly important where we have our maps, as long as they're included. I think the idea of having only 3 episodes is stupid, and here's why.

With the number of mappers kicking in at this speed, we'll end up with a deficiency. Take a look at the list. Merging the ler's and torn's list (and I don't see why not) will result in the worst thing possible: Some maps will get kicked out or pushed aside to be released as an "outtake" or never released at all. Why? Just for the sake of keeping some stupid principals. Quite unreasonable, if you ask me, because it'll harm the overall quality of the megawad.

Snarboo is the latest entry, at this speed, we'll soon have more than enough quality mappers. I also see no reason to kick out the mappers which have expressed the wish to do 2 maps. Lord_Z and I have specifically stated that we'll join in with extra map, if the number of the open slots gets bigger. As of now, we already have a pretty good idea on what we want to do. We got ler's green light. Fine. Many maps which have been created under ler's leadership have been properly and professionally tested and are of good quality.

I see no reason whatsoever not to have Torn and ler both doing the leadership work and getting properly credited as such. By sorting out what we have done so far, and adding the finished, tested maps from Torn's list, waiting those who have applied for slots (including those who have 2 maps), we'll manage to keep the "community" spirit healthy and going, while still keeping a certain cohesion to the team. Once we have it all sorted out and worked on, we'll open new slots, so that more people can kick in, once this list has a *done* tag on all of the maps, and they get properly sorted out. And I don't think it'll be a flashback project either, since the new textures and different style of the mappers will produce an interesting and innovative combination of styles.

My wish is to make this as best as possible a project. But if we continue this way, we'll soon have to many people, it'll all turn into chaos, the quality will suffer, and some great maps will get kicked out. Very, very bad idea, if you ask me. Opening the new slots, OTOH, will ensure that everyone is satisfied, while the quality of the overall project will kept high, and we'll end up having a megawad that will be both extensive and fun to play.

After all, heretic offers us 45 shiny new slots to work on. Why not use it? As of now the last thing to worry about would be that we won't have enough mappers. At the latest stage, the maps will get tweaked and worked on, detailed etc. most all community projects had this process going on, and I don't see why this one should not. But first, let us sort things out and change and update the list of maps on the first page, and open the much-needed extra slots.

This way, the only people who'll get kicked out are those who have applied on the Torn's list, yet have not finished anything. And even they might get another chance if they apply again, when we get the extra slots. The finished maps from that list would be added detail, or tweaked, or whatever necessary, and we could all be happy. Otherwise, I don't understand how we can have 2 e1m1s, or e2m7s, or whatever, and having practically 2 projects existing under the same name. It just won't work. Period. And anyway you put it, kicking out anything wouldn't be fair nor reasonable. As I say, this is a compromise solution, the only idea that needs to change is to add the extra 18 slots.

By the very end of the whole thing, we can then deal with trivial subjects as to who's map fits where, and where will it be relocated, which music will be included etc.

[Lord_Z]

I agree. To me, the more the merrier.

[duvel]

Very nice post, Artillery. I think I'm going to agree with opening more episodes at this rate. Maybe that'll encourage more participation, too.

And it's nice to know Torn hasn't disappeared from the world, though I do wish he'd keep his appearances a bit more regular.

We will deal with any changes to map slots later; let's get 45 maps first.

[Artillery]

ler said:

Very nice post, Artillery. I think I'm going to agree with opening more episodes at this rate. Maybe that'll encourage more participation, too.

Yuppieee!!!

Glad to know someone agrees.

But, I think it would still be wise to keep the space for Torn and his list to kick in. As of now we have quite a lot of maps already, which are either done, or will soon be done. This thread has definitely done it's purpouse, since the number of newcomers is big.

Why did I make such an extensive post? Because, if you imagine the already signed up maps completed, plus merging it with the Torn's list (I think we have 5 or so finished maps from that list, perhaps good quality, which are not on ler's list), you get a pretty extensive list of maps. I don't think it would be fair that the newcomers override the old slots. The idea is to prevent the chaos. Torn, too has built something, if I remember correctly, and whatever someone has finished for this project, it'll be of use.

My prediction is that the number of newcomers will be big. The only thing I'm afraid is going to happen is that we'll have too many.

Magicsofa offered to the work with the screen map names, which is great, but we'll have to wait until we are 100% sure about which map will be at which slot. There's surely going to be some serious relocations in the final version.

[magicsofa]

I can make those titles regardless of where the map might be...

I might try messing with the status bar too, but that'll take a while.


EDIT: So I was poking around heretic.wad, and the level titles are actually not their own pics like (I think) they are in doom. The only thing we could do is make a new font, but I'm not partial to that.

[duvel]

So Heretic's level names at the intermission screen are hardcoded?

We could always provide an HHE file (which not many ports support, but whatever).

[magicsofa]

Wintex shows me various lumps I don't understand, I bet they're hidden in there :)

I guess if our only option isn't fully supported it's not worth worrying about. The original heretic names didn't even fit the levels anyway!

[Creaphis]

I say that we shouldn't officially expand beyond the first three episodes until we have more than 27 maps at a state of completion or near-completion. I agree that expanding to all 5 episodes is better than excluding any high-quality maps, but I don't think we're anywhere close to that problem yet.

Hopefully we don't end up with any duplicate maps in unique slots, like the boss fight maps and the maps with secret exits.


Wait, which Heretic map slots have secret exits again? Did I choose a secret-exit slot without realizing it?

[duvel]

E1M6, E2M4, E3M4, E4M4, and E5M3 all have secret exits.

[Creaphis]

Ha, then I did. Should I just assume then that my map will stay where it is, and hide a secret exit somewhere?

[duvel]

For the moment yes. If you get moved later on you can just take it out and close up the secret, I suppose.

[Artillery]

Creaphis said:

Ha, then I did. Should I just assume then that my map will stay where it is, and hide a secret exit somewhere?

Yes. At present state, your secret exit will lead to my secret level.

One of the many reasons why I insisted on the problem of 5 episodes is exactly because of those peculiar level functions. Technically, adding a secret exit later shouldn't be a problem for majority of map environments, altough it may require tweaking later on. The problem is the boss levels, and possibly the first maps. These duplicates may create a lot of trouble, if not solved. Secret levels per se shouldn't be a big problem, basically any ordinary level fits there.

I did, though, start making e2m9, and so far, if my ideas turn out well, it'll be a type of a level that will fit only as a secret level, as it'll surely "jump out" in level progression, it was meant to be a "secret" type of a level. In the end though, it'll probably fit as any eXm9 map, though.

EDIT: It looks like ler beat me on this one.

[Lord_Z]

My map is quite possibly only going to work as an eXm9 as well. The stuff that I'm putting in it may not be the same if it was just an ordinary level.

What's this about duplicates though? Maybe I just don't understand now because I'm tired but I don't see a reason why there would be duplicate levels.

[188DarkRevived]

ler said:

So Heretic's level names at the intermission screen are hardcoded?

We could always provide an HHE file (which not many ports support, but whatever).

Or you could also make a DED file which is always recognizable by my favourite port - Doomsday ;)

[Artillery]

Lord_Z said:

My map is quite possibly only going to work as an eXm9 as well. The stuff that I'm putting in it may not be the same if it was just an ordinary level.

What's this about duplicates though? Maybe I just don't understand now because I'm tired but I don't see a reason why there would be duplicate levels.

As of yet we still don't know which levels on the Torn's list are done. This way, there will be some maps with same slot. If there are, for instance 2 levels which both have secret exits, then one must be changed. One such slot, for instance is e2m4. It's even more complicated with boss maps, since they have special tags. On e3m8 there's a tag linked to killing an D'sparil, which usually opens a certain passage. If we have several finished e3m8s, then it's a problem.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

magicsofa said:

As a side note, remember that heretic doesn't change many of doom's original behaviors - that includes giving you double ammo on black plague!

It does change them actually, you get 150% ammo and no respawns on skill 5.

[duvel]

A lot of this talk about slots is very premature: Let's have maps first.

(in otherwords, start mapping and stop talking! :P)

[magicsofa]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

It does change them actually, you get 150% ammo and no respawns on skill 5.

That's interesting...I had originally thought they decided to remove respawning without touching double ammo...