New id interview with Todd, about Rage and Idtech5 licensing

[lazygecko]

http://games.kikizo.com/features/todd-hollenshead-id-software-interview-p1.asp

If what they say is true, Idtech5 can become a serious competitor to Epic's engine, if it reduces the time and resources needed for multiplatform titles.

[skadoomer]

Bout time there was some competition to Unreal 3. I think Unreal is more aggressive than id in terms of marketing their engine to potential buyers (how many games where built off of idtech 4?), but it would be nice to see a FPS that didn't have that "this is an unreal engine" look to it.

[AirRaid]

The company is called Epic, dude.

Also, As far as I can tell, there's very little actual new info in this interview. Pretty much all of what was said was known months ago, wasn't it?

[Csonicgo]

The evolution of idtech 5 from idtech4 had better be revolutionary; the original doom3 engine has not aged well and is horribly unoptimized, struggling with rendering a single room in a closed space. This was pathetic at best.

The main competition now isn't about features or shaders but simply which engine can push the most shit on the screen as possible. Contrary to what would seem obvious, the software side still determines the performance as a whole.

Consider the open source Engine Sauerbraten. in the earliest stages, shaders and such effects (post processing, etc) were so taxing on the hardware that framerate would drop 50 percent. With the current release, all effects can be active in a large detailed area with no noticeable drop in framerate.


in order to show this I inited an old version of sauerbraten, known as "water edition", and the newest version of sauerbraten, known as "CTF Edition". I ran a level that used all available effects (though this varies from version to version), at 1280x800, with a geforce 8 series card.

with Water Edition, start map = 14 FPS
With CTF Edition, start map = 60 FPS (max)

I know that it's silly to compare Sauerbraten to a commercial engine like Idtech 4 or Unreal, but it helps illustrate that if an engine can be shown performing better, the reason should not always be "a bigger video card", or a faster CPU.

I suppose this can be proven with many graphics comparisons of XBOX360 and PS3 when running multiplatform games. The 360 still beats the PS3 in that area simply due to optimization of the software. This is due to the experience of programming for the 360 platform, while the Cell architecture is pretty new.

In that case, I can only imagine how difficult it is for PC developers to write optimized code for all "x86"-like architectures. There are so many, with numerous configurations, that it seems impossible to cater to them all equally in terms of optimization. Perhaps this is why games increase in complexity and graphics as a console platform ages: it never changes, so you can learn the quirks of the hardware and microcode and exploit it. This is hardly possible in the PC gaming world. This battle would solely be in the console arena.

But, if id has found a way to make RAGE capable of optimization to different platforms, along with ease of use in terms of licensing the engine, that shows a level of dedication that I have only seen at id software- Carmack is a friggin' genius.

[lazygecko]

With all the talk about 60fps, I am going to assume that it is optimized and optimized well. And what you say about software vs hardware in terms of performance is true, and sadly very understated in the industry. I can max out UT3 on my machine with a constant smooth framerate, yet Crysis struggles for its life only on medium settings, and I can't even max Neverwinter Nights 2.

[Zaldron]

Are you seriously comparing UT3 to Crysis in regards to computational demand?

The evolution of idtech 5 from idtech4 had better be revolutionary; the original doom3 engine has not aged well and is horribly unoptimized, struggling with rendering a single room in a closed space. This was pathetic at best.

What the hell?

[kristus]

Csonicgo said:

The evolution of idtech 5 from idtech4 had better be revolutionary; the original doom3 engine has not aged well and is horribly unoptimized, struggling with rendering a single room in a closed space. This was pathetic at best.

Do you want me to dispute this or should we just agree that you don't know what you're talking about?

[chungy]

CSonicGo ran Doom 3 on a Celeron 500 with an integrated graphics chip hogging 4MB of RAM.

[Kaiser]

Csonicgo said:

the lithtech engine has not aged well and is horribly unoptimized, struggling with rendering a single room in a closed space. This was pathetic at best.

Fixed

[Technician]

Same ol' shit.

[Richo Rosai]

kristus said:

Do you want me to dispute this or should we just agree that you don't know what you're talking about?

This is the guy who said that there is no cheese in "the East". I think it's been established that he has no idea what he's talking about.

[Enjay]

Whenever I read anything said by Todd Hollenshead, it sounds like superficial spin-doctoring. I never get the impression that he is truly passionate about what he is discussing but merely putting a marketing spin on it. I can imagine him giving almost exactly the same interview (technical details aside) regardless of which company he was working for. He comes across, to me, as nothing more than a front-man and a mouth piece saying all the right things to justify his paycheck. As a result, what he says is quite dismissible IMO. Contrast the way he speaks and what he says with the way Carmack speaks about his programming or Romero speaks about game design.

[Kirby]

Enjay said:

Whenever I read anything said by Todd Hollenshead, it sounds like superficial spin-doctoring. I never get the impression that he is truly passionate about what he is discussing but merely putting a marketing spin on it. I can imagine him giving almost exactly the same interview (technical details aside) regardless of which company he was working for. He comes across, to me, as nothing more than a front-man and a mouth piece saying all the right things to justify his paycheck. As a result, what he says is quite dismissible IMO. Contrast the way he speaks and what he says with the way Carmack speaks about his programming or Romero speaks about game design.

I honestly think that this is the case. It seems more like he's just trying to market it off to the next person by making it seem very appealing/politically correct when what he's spewing is a bunch of jargon.

[myk]

Whenever I read anything said by Enjay, it sounds like superficial spin-doctoring. I generally get the impression that he goes all passionate about what he is discussing to merely put a disgruntled-old-fanboy spin on it. I can imagine him making almost exactly the same post (ranting details aside) regardless of which new id product he was complaining about. He comes across, to me, as nothing more than a front-man and a mouth piece saying all the expected things to look righteous on the Internet. As a result, what he says is quite dismissible IMO. Contrast the way he speaks and what he says with the way Andrey Budko speaks about his programming or Scuba Steve speaks about game design.

[Use]

It just got chilly in here...

[GreyGhost]

Close the window and wrap yourself in a blanket - preferably one that's flame-resistant.

[Richo Rosai]

Enjay said:

Whenever I read anything said by Todd Hollenshead, it sounds like superficial spin-doctoring. I never get the impression that he is truly passionate about what he is discussing but merely putting a marketing spin on it. I can imagine him giving almost exactly the same interview (technical details aside) regardless of which company he was working for. He comes across, to me, as nothing more than a front-man and a mouth piece saying all the right things to justify his paycheck. As a result, what he says is quite dismissible IMO. Contrast the way he speaks and what he says with the way Carmack speaks about his programming or Romero speaks about game design.

Heh, Doom III promo video. He's got to be reading those lines off a card (for the first time).

[Sharessa]

Generally when I do speeches, I read stuff off of a card too. You don't want to just walk out on stage and start ad libbing...

That said, Hollenshead does seem like a corporate stiff, on top of having a weird-ass surname.

[AirRaid]

Csonicgo
This post is definitely useless

Fixed.

[Enjay]

myk said:

Stuff.

LOL, Nice one.

However, you'll notice that I didn't mention the game at all. In fact, I'm waiting until I see it before I make up my mind. I can't say that I'm overly excited about it. It seems to have a heavy driving bias, and that's not my kind of game.

What I was talking about was the personalities involved. Read what Carmack says/writes when he's talking about his programming (for any game, even ones post DoomII :P ). He is passionate about it. It's what he does. He's all fired up about it and enthusiastic. Hollenshead just comes across, as Danarchy put it, a stiff. No involvement, no passion, no fire, just the predictable, expected stuff that he is supposed to say. He always just sounds like a guy who's job it is, is to be positive about the company he works for.

[myk]

Yeah, he's just the CEO, after all. Id's indeed more like a company now instead of a gang of guys that make games like they used to, but you had come out a bit harsh on the guy himself, who's just some dude :p

[Enjay]

I didn't think it was harsh. I only called him a spindoctor and a mouthpiece. I could have been a lot harsher. ;)

Part and parcel of being the public face of the company is being the guy who takes the flak. That was his choice. If he was doing it in a more convincing way, then I'd be happy to pay him compliments - but he isn't. Not that I suppose what I say either way would affect him at all.

But yeah, I suppose he is just the most visible evidence of the fact that id aren't just the "gang of guys making games" anymore. A mixed blessing, of course.

[Use]

It looks like it might break the 'lol id game' mold for a change, and that's the most promising aspect of Rage...yeah the name is still really stupid, but there's still hope that someone there can rub two brain cells together and come up with something better.

[Scuba Steve]

Also, as anyone knows, I have impeccable taste in game design.

[AirRaid]

Use3D said:

yeah the name is still really stupid, but there's still hope that someone there can rub two brain cells together and come up with something better.

What's wrong with the name "Rage"? I think it's a good, simple name. Much like Doom and Quake.

[Enjay]

Use3D said:

yeah the name is still really stupid, but there's still hope that someone there can rub two brain cells together and come up with something better.

I think you'll find that there are several elements in the game where 'Rage' is appropriate. There's a lot of driving throughout the game - you can modify your car, soup it up, trick it out or whatever, so there is this 'gaRage' aspect. Spelling lesson here folks, the last four letters of the word gaRage are r a g e. Then in the story to the game, you're trying to beat back is the oppressive nature of the regime, so there's the sort of the 'Rage against the machine' element of it. And there's some vehicular combat, so there's the 'road Rage'. So the name Rage will fit in well with a lot of different aspects of the game.

Ahem. ;)

The name... I can't figure out if it is good or bad. It's no worse then Quake, I guess. Maybe the guys at id have problems with games with long names, or they think their players do, or something. :)

I've got to admit, it looks stunning and some of the places really look like wandering through architecture that could previously have only been achieved as pre-rendered scenes in a modelling program.

A driving game... a driving game... Hmmm, still not my taste though and I really disliked the driving in HL2 (and every other FPS that has tried (and failed IMO) to implement drivable vehicles). Driving games get it right. I've yet to play an FPS that can match the control of a dedicated driving game. Could this be the one to get it right for me?

[Use]

AirRaid said:

What's wrong with the name "Rage"? I think it's a good, simple name.

That's the problem.
'Here's our new engin-er I mean, game! It's called...um, Rage! yeah that'll do...'

To me the name comes off as the same old shit, little thought put into characters or story so a generic name like 'Rage' can just be slapped on it. Not saying that's the case at all with this game but that's the impression I get when I hear such a powerless, mediocre name.

Todd Goofy-face said:

I think you'll find that there are several elements in the game where 'Rage' is appropriate...

Heh I laughed when I read that. I can only imagine the interviewers face.. O_o

[Technician]

I wonder if we get to pick our selection of dinosaur and go on a global conquest where only the strongest can rule the new urth.

[printz]

Use3D said:

'Here's our new engin-er I mean, game! It's called...um, Rage! yeah that'll do...'

Perhaps you're correct. The name Doom means (slow) death and the name Quake suggests noise, and that indeed fits with the sounds used there. Rage sounds like short-term anger, after which the person calms down. Maybe they should choose a stronger, but still one-word name, like Disaster?

TBH, I don't like how that "giant" insect is really a common fly seen very close. I don't know if there's a use for that kind of detail, unless the player will be shrunk. Yet I do expect id to get texture-mapping all cells and all granulations of everything -- they've always wanted to be ahead technologically.

Maybe Rage will be a beautiful game of simplicity, and only the other companies will exploit the engine for hopefully creative effects.

EDIT: There are too many reworded messages in this thread, like there's a bandwagon for one to copy another's words and make fun of them.

[Technician]

Quake means to tremble or shake. It's a reference to fear.