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lazygecko

New id interview with Todd, about Rage and Idtech5 licensing

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Whatever, I'll still buy it, play it and mod it. Their editing tools for idtech 5 look like a lot of fun from the videos i saw; a much different way then the 3d studio max like level editors of previous generations.

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kristus said:

Do you want me to dispute this or should we just agree that you don't know what you're talking about?


please do because the only computer I have played that could run the game smoothly for more than 2 minutes crashed during the landing of the spacecraft at the intro.

To be honest I've yet to see a computer with mine own eyes run the program without jerkiness going through doors, shadows flickering all over the place, and textures jumping. Walking would be smooth for a fraction of a second, then the rendering stops for a millisecond and starts again. it was akin to listening to a 78 with a monstrous scratch. the only levels that didn't have this jerkiness were the temple levels near the end. I can't fight in close quarters when the game stops and my mouse movement suffers as I suddenly start looking away as a monster bites my head off.

note that this was on every computer I ran my copy Doom3 on. Surely I wasn't the only one that noticed this. Doom3 was the only game that has done this too.

but anyway that's not the point, that one little statement voided everything I said :[

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printz said:

The name Doom means (slow) death

Actually it means "fate", though it usually implies, in the common vernacular, a bad fate.

Actually, going back even further it might even mean "cathedral" (after the German/Anglo-Saxon word Dome).

And related to that is the Domesday Book, the first census ever taken, documenting all the people and their holdings in Europe. Domesday meant "day of reckoning", as this book was supposedly similar to the book that Christ (or St. Peter) would read to you of your life's deeds after you die. That was derived from the Anglo-Saxon word "dom" which meant "reckoning", you see. It also meant "accounting".

So, in conclusion, Doom means paying your taxes.

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Technician said:

Quake means to tremble or shake. It's a reference to fear.

Wasn't Quake also originally going to feature an entity of some sort called "Quake"? I have a vague recollection of that from the early, early days of it being talked about. You know, back when id showed of amazing pictures of a flying dragon in the pre-release publicity screenshots. The dragon, IIRC, didn't actually make an appearance until the second expansion pack though.

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Quake was eventually used as the codename for the bad guy (I guess that would be Shub). Initially it was the name of the player character, that was going to wield a hammer that could shake the earth.

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Enjay said:

Wasn't Quake also originally going to feature an entity of some sort called "Quake"?


Yeah, the creature beyond the slipgate identifies itself as Quake to the marines.

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Csonicgo said:

To be honest I've yet to see a computer with mine own eyes run the program without jerkiness going through doors, shadows flickering all over the place, and textures jumping. Walking would be smooth for a fraction of a second, then the rendering stops for a millisecond and starts again. it was akin to listening to a 78 with a monstrous scratch. the only levels that didn't have this jerkiness were the temple levels near the end. I can't fight in close quarters when the game stops and my mouse movement suffers as I suddenly start looking away as a monster bites my head off.

note that this was on every computer I ran my copy Doom3 on. Surely I wasn't the only one that noticed this. Doom3 was the only game that has done this too.


That sounds like a pretty isolated case to me. I haven't heard any other complaints of such behaviour in the Doom3 engine. Everything I've run it on has done pretty well. Even my old system with the GF4 Ti4400 was a lil choppy in places, but ran it playably and consistently without any crashing or stuttering like you're describing.

Edit: I should say, I have heard of other games bahaving exactly like that, usually due to driver issues or other such problems, and there was always a way to fix it.

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Use3D said:

Yeah, the creature beyond the slipgate identifies itself as Quake to the marines.


Sadly neither mission pack really spread this idea out. They make mention of the Quake being but never any farther then that.

Despite Quakes ham fist story I actually believe it's one of id's best. Fuck the stroggs a Lovecraft Satan worshipping alternate dimension is way fucking better. We have a world with bloodthirsty knits and chainsaw wielding ogres.

Sorry I kind of trailed off.

Danarchy said:

Actually it means "fate", though it usually implies, in the common vernacular, a bad fate.

I always took Doom as a situation that there is no possible retaliation. Like being locked in a room engulfed in flames.

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Danarchy said:

And related to that is the Domesday Book, the first census ever taken, documenting all the people and their holdings in Europe. Domesday meant "day of reckoning", as this book was supposedly similar to the book that Christ (or St. Peter) would read to you of your life's deeds after you die. That was derived from the Anglo-Saxon word "dom" which meant "reckoning", you see. It also meant "accounting".


And "law" or "judgment" -- doomsday is synonymous to judgment's day.
See also all the -dom words (kingdom, fiefdom, and so on). A possible cognate is Russian duma which means parliament or assembly.

myk said:

Quake was eventually used as the codename for the bad guy (I guess that would be Shub). Initially it was the name of the player character, that was going to wield a hammer that could shake the earth.

Not Shub, Shub's master. Shub was kinda like the Spider Mastermind, Quake would be like the Icon of Sin.

Technician said:

Despite Quakes ham fist story I actually believe it's one of id's best. Fuck the stroggs a Lovecraft Satan worshipping alternate dimension is way fucking better. We have a world with bloodthirsty knits and chainsaw wielding ogres.


Unfortunately, that was exactly the same story as Doom. Judge for yourself:

Background: You get the phone call at 4 a.m. By 5:30 you're in the secret installation. The commander explains tersely, "It's about the Slipgate devise. Once we perfect these, we'll be able to use them to transport people and cargo from one place to another instantly.

"An enemy, codenamed Quake, is using his own slipgates to insert death squads inside our bases to kill, steal, and kidnap...

"The hell of it is we have no idea there he's from. Our top scientists think Quake's not from Earth, but another dimension. They say Quake's preparing to unleash his real army, whatever that is.

"You're our best man. This is Operation Counterstrike and you're in charge. Find Quake, and stop him... or it... You have full authority to requisition anything you need. If the eggheads are right, all our lives are expendable..."

Prelude to Destruction: While scouting the neighborhood, you hear shots back at the base. Damn that Quake bastard works fast! He heard about Operation Counterstrike, and hit first. Racing back, you see the place is overrun. You are almost certainly the only survivor. Operation Counterstrike is over. Except for you.

You know that the heart of the installation holds a slipgate. Since Quake's killers came through, it is still set to his dimension. You can use it to get loose in his hometown. Maybe you can get to the asshole personally. You pump a round into your shotgun, and get moving.


Secret militaro-industrial installations? Check.
Researches on teleportation technology? Check.
Teleporters open onto a parallel dimension? Check.
Denizens from said dimension invade? Check.
They're some sort of occult, supernatural monsters? Check.
The personnel, other than you, is turned into zombies? Check.

Apparently, some people at id (including Romero, lead level designer) wanted to do something a bit like Hexen (dark fantasy) while others wanted to do sci-fi stuff (which they would do with Quake II). The result was a compromise recycling the Doom story as a way to have both tech bases and dark fantasy castles.

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I think that was one of my disappointments about Quake - the fact that the "story" was just Doom all over again. Personally, I prefered the Strogg story because it was a departure from the previous games and the Strogg themselves were a consistent and cohesive enemy as opposed to the relative randomness of the Quake enemies. What's more, I love the look of the Q2 intro and I even think the logo looks better. For some reason that extra nail makes it look much better IMO. In fact, I prefer Q2 to Q generally. I prefer the look, the enemies, the setting and the gameplay. I know that isn't always a popular view, but that's how it is.

Quake always seemed like an unfinished product to me - lots of things thrown together in a new engine with little thought as to how they would work together as a cohesive game - and that's before I knew about how it had been compromised and rushed out of the door. Also, I always thought (and still do) that the enemy models were just far too blocky and ugly looking. I know they were probably the most complicated models that could be handled on the hardware of the time and that they heralded in a new generation of model-based games. That doesn't stop them looking like they were carved out of a bit of scrap wood by a 10 year old with a blunt pen knife. IMO, side by side, the sprites of the time look significantly better than the Quake models. By the time Quake2 came about, that bias was starting to shift.

I was also a little disappointed that the only real episode boss in the game was the one I'd already seen when completing the shareware episode. A good boss battle at the end of every episode with a rune key guardian would have been nice. I know it seems to be a love it or hate it situation too, but the final boss "battle" has to be, for me, one of the biggest WTF disappointments in gaming history. I mean, a giant sea anemone sitting on a rock doing nothing other than waving its tentacles (yes, tentacles) around as a little spiky ball flies around and through it just waiting for you to teleport onto the ball whilst it's inside the anemone. O_o

And I didn't even mention all the brown... dammit! ;)

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The ogres are my least favorite part of Quake - the combination of the worst AI imaginable (see player = fire) and those grating sound effects was horrendous.
CLANK BOOM CLANK BOOM CLANK BOOM CLANK BOOM

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I remember reading a magazine review of Quake and it was going on about the amazing AI of the ogres and how they fired on you when you were in range but still quite far away but when you got close they would slash at you with their chainsaws. They said something like "it's hard to believe that there really isn't some genuine intelligence behind them". Ummm.... riiiiight.

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The stories in both Doom and Quake were dumb, so it didn't matter to me that they were the same. I enjoy Quake more than any other post-Doom game iD has made.

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Speculating here But I believe we may have had episode boss battles if the ai and attacks for the Death Dragon and Vomitus were completed but I guess that only supports your argument about Quake being unfinished. But to me the randomness of the monsters and un-holy stone maps just make it all the more charming to me. I can't say why but it is.

I think the ogre had allot planned for it but dropped. I wish I still had that gif I made of his pissing movements.

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I liked Quake2 a whole lot more than Quake. Quake had it's qualities. But Quake 2, I found as awesome.

EDIT: About the name explanation, it was actually Tim Willits that said that first. Not crazy about the name "Rage" either. It lacks power.

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Enjay said:

I remember reading a magazine review of Quake and it was going on about the amazing AI of the ogres and how they fired on you when you were in range but still quite far away but when you got close they would slash at you with their chainsaws. They said something like "it's hard to believe that there really isn't some genuine intelligence behind them". Ummm.... riiiiight.

A small feat now for an FPS, of course, but at the time it was quite something, don't you think?. I still hold Quake's ogres as one of the most effective enemies to face in a game. They're not stupidly hard in some abusive way, they're not strong enough to be rare, the unpredictability of the grenade bouncing, the quick to engage melee attack, all elements that made them, if not formidable foes, very interesting ones. It wasn't a Shambler, which you simply kill with heavy guns and any kind of solid brush in between you, nor was it a Fiend, a shotgun/sidestepping chore. It was a fucking bastard id's designers cleverly placed wherever the bouncing grenades would somehow always become problematic.

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Quake is id's other great game. The low poly models are nice for low resolutions, and the artwork for Quake is probably the best id did, considering the tech they were using. Inconsistent elements? Perhaps, but well merged by the artists in a simple and expressive way. Somewhat unfinished feeling overall? Maybe, but fun and moody. Plus it made room for a speedrunning scene as strong as DOOM's, if not more... nothing can beat that.

I don't really have a problem with Quake being essentially like DOOM, because sticking to that sort of pre-tested enjoyable gameplay allowed them to engineer both online multiplayer and true 3D at the right moment. Had it been more like Quake 2 in gameplay and progess, it would have lost raw power, anyway.

John Carmack said:
The old story was that Quake II which has nothing to do with Quake I was going to be a completely different name, but we got fed up with getting the names rejected so we said, "Dammit, it’s Quake II. We own that trademark."

Heh, at least Quake had a stunted attempt at a new concept behind its name (kind of like DOOM had Tom Hall's gameplay plans initially).

According to that article, it is probable that id had quite a few names for their new game, but that Rage was (according to them) the best of the ones they found available as a trademark.

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I don't see how the Ogre firing at a distance and slashing close up is significantly different to an Imp, a Baron, a Revenant... That's all I was saying.

I also remember reading a review of Doom going on about Doom's AI - how once a monster knew you were there, they would cross an entire level to get to you, opening doors as necessary. :)

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Hahah, it's no different, of course, but it suited the Ogre. I think it was the fact that grenades you avoid in the tight corridors of Quake levels have a way of bouncing to wherever you sought cover. Those that misfired wildly were even prone to somehow find their way to you, and the ones that really missed the mark were still a cacophonous distraction.

If the Ogre knew how to fire even if you were not in sight, now that would have been interesting.

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I remember at one point you have to walk through a hallway where there are ogres in the rafters that you can barely see just spamming grenades down on you. I always hated that part.

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Richo Rosai said:

batshit insane rambling

Yup, that covers it. lol

It really comes across as a "stream of consciousness" tale inspired by a little bit too much Mary J doesn't it? There's nothing in that "vision" that made it into the game. lol.

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The concept behind the original quake sounds so far fetched (runes where supposed to be something completely different than just episode keys) that i'm actually surprised they released it. I never did like what the name 'Quake' covered in terms of the games they where. It feels like having three kids and naming them all Carl. (quake IV and Quake II being the only two that are really story related)

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I'll only read the Romero quote when it's nicely paragraphed.

As for the Quake games seeming unrelated -- they are related, as they all have the Quad damage and the same mentality behind their development, such as kill-kill-kill gameplay and extensive multiplayer (unlike Doom 3 with 4 players only, and being an attempt at a suspense-shooter (instead of bloodshed-shooter)).

Rage (or Disaster as I like this proposed name-by-me more) oughta be a revolution, not only graphically, but also by fun factor. I don't think it'll fail being revolutionary, like Doom 3 did, because the id-guys are more accustomed to non-horror gameplay anyway.

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The thing about Quake is that it was basically 3 people wanting to do 3 different games. John Carmack just wanted another Doom-type game to show off his new 3d engine. John Romero wanted an RPG-like game based off of his character from Carmack's D&D campaign. Sandy Petersen (who wrote the Call of Cthulhu RPG) wanted to make a Cthulhu-based game. The end result was a strange mishmash of all three: Cthuluesque concepts and monsters in castles using Doom-style guns.

The story behind the naming of Quake 2 is pretty funny too. They originally wanted to name it something else, but every name they tried to think up was already taken, so they just gave up and named it Quake 2.

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printz said:

I'll only read the Romero quote when it's nicely paragraphed.


Yeah, you get right on that.

This interview is only found on the internet in one location in an old txt file, from which I copied and pasted.

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Csonicgo said:

please do because the only computer I have played that could run the game smoothly for more than 2 minutes crashed during the landing of the spacecraft at the intro.

To be honest I've yet to see a computer with mine own eyes run the program without jerkiness going through doors, shadows flickering all over the place, and textures jumping. Walking would be smooth for a fraction of a second, then the rendering stops for a millisecond and starts again. it was akin to listening to a 78 with a monstrous scratch. the only levels that didn't have this jerkiness were the temple levels near the end. I can't fight in close quarters when the game stops and my mouse movement suffers as I suddenly start looking away as a monster bites my head off.

note that this was on every computer I ran my copy Doom3 on. Surely I wasn't the only one that noticed this. Doom3 was the only game that has done this too.

but anyway that's not the point, that one little statement voided everything I said :[

That's because doom 3's engine lacks efficiency.

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Richo Rosai said:
This interview is only found on the internet in one location in an old txt file, from which I copied and pasted.

Yeah, quaketalk '95.

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