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Kyka

KDiZD... thoughts?

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Lizardcommando said:

I know this is kinda off topic, but what does family-based infighting mean? Is that like when the pinky demons only attack imps or when certain types of imps, say those shadow imps, don't attack each other while they attack some other types of imps?

The term is made-up, AFAIK, but in reference to this discussion, it is to say that similar enemies would be programmed not to infight with each other. For example, imps and shadows could be grouped into a "family" so that they don't infight with each other, but will infight with all the other enemies.

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Lizardcommando said:

I know this is kinda off topic, but what does family-based infighting mean? Is that like when the pinky demons only attack imps or when certain types of imps, say those shadow imps, don't attack each other while they attack some other types of imps?

With the monsters categorized into families, different types of imps wouldn't fight with each other, nor would different types of pinkies, etc. So you could put an imp, a shadow, a soul harvester, and a dark imp together in a room with a pinky, a blood demon, and a mauler demon, and if they start infighting it'll be the imps vs. the pinkies.

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I liked KDiZD. I thought it was pretty fun and neat to see how flexible ZDoom is. Only things that bothered me though was Z1M1, was way too slow paced and boring, which an extreme turn off from the start, E1M1 was always the "I gotta speedrun this" kinda map. I don't know why the mapper intended on preserving that feeling and completely rewriting the style of the map.

I thought Z1M2 looked a little too much like a retextured version of E1M2, it seemed a little less than original to me. I don't have much qualms about the rest of the maps though.

However not leaving those Bruiser demons as the final boss was really annoying, first time I played I expended all the ammo I had on them, it was just barely enough. Little did I know I had to fight a boss that had double the health shortly after. I had to quit from there because the respawning bullet boxes and 4 shotgun shells were not available fast enough for me to stay alive, and the whole area started getting spammed with lost souls and imps with no land left to walk on.

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JohnnyRancid said:

I liked KDiZD. I thought it was pretty fun and neat to see how flexible ZDoom is.

However not leaving those Bruiser demons as the final boss was really annoying, first time I played I expended all the ammo I had on them, it was just barely enough. Little did I know I had to fight a boss that had double the health shortly after. I had to quit from there because the respawning bullet boxes and 4 shotgun shells were not available fast enough for me to stay alive, and the whole area started getting spammed with lost souls and imps with no land left to walk on.


Totally and absolutely agree. Those Uber Baron Things should have been the finish. They were awesome. That last boss thing (reminded me of the boss at the end of episode one of the original quake.) didn't fit at all. Finishing on the two Uber Barons would have been a satisfying and fitting finish. The last monster thing was just frustrating.

Pacing is everything in a game like this, and to be fair, I thought most of the game was paced pretty well ('cept for how many times I was wandering around lost). For art forms where an element of time is required (music, books, interactive games), knowing how to build tension and emotion, and how and when to release it is critical to their success. The last level built the tension beautifully, up to a crunching high point at the barons. After that should have been a natural resting point, a time to breathe and feel that the player has achieved something. "Now i've killed everything, survived the worst that the game could throw at me." But then Blammo... a fast and direct crash into frustrationville. No ammo, No health and forced to fight some butt ugly lava thing with virtually my bare hands and which had little to do with the story or the "feel" of the rest of the game.

Ugh.

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John Smith said:

Uh-uh. I am invoking my pink badge of gayness and I'm going to tell you the truth. The coronas aren't a matter of opinion, they're ugly. Some people may be blind, for various reasons, and unable to see the fact that they look ugly, true.



Even presenting it as an absolute doesn't make this more than just your personal opinion.

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I completed KDiZD once and I feel the only downside is its lack of replayability. Well, I can replay it, let's say once a year, but that's all. This mapset just expands my replay cycle of good wads I enjoy dropping in sometimes.

But if I want to show off a friend how advanced are Doom Source development, I'll gladly show him KDiZD.

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I felt that it did capture and gave a decent facelift to the original Doom feel I got when I first started playing.*sigh* I miss those days...lots of nights staying up playing Co Op all night.

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-----------------------------------------------------------------
Possible spoilers ahead, but you´re all old enough to handle it, right?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

It is a sad fact that there´s more infighting going on in this thread than in KDiZD...

And these are my personal opinions, by the way.

I just finished the game tonight and feel that i was pretty well entertained.

Played through it this first time on skill 4, which took me a staggering 6hours and 47minutes or something...smoking cigarettes and drinking a wee bit´o´fluid and other offline "stuff" - looking at the automap ... but who needs excuses anyway ...

The game then rated me as being latent and inaccurate, but i can live with that, and feel not too offended.

The Positive:
Nicely detailed maps, like pretty much all of the new graphics and most of the new monsters and weapons, the switch and monitor thing, the cutscenes, and the audio-effects, that helped give several locations a spooky and uncanny mood. Well placed and balanced amount of ammo and health and various powerups. Traps well placed and none too unfair. And not too many traps. Missed the monster infighting a bit, but then got over myself and enjoyed the alternative style of gameplay.

The Negative:
Holy fucking keyhunt - pardon my french...and in a couple of the maps the keys were also too hard to find. I generally tend to look at the automap a lot, but has never been more lost than in this one, despite having set a new map-looking record. And i absolutely hate the degree of automap-detail, which makes marks and shit hard to see, and they are nessecary in this. Didn´t like the two bosses or their almost unfair toughness, and yes - i cheated...to see the final boss, who i didn´t like either, but beat - not cheating.

Conclusion:
I recommend KDiZD. Possibly everything can be made better in some way, but appriciate the effort made to entertain you and the fact that it cost you nothing to play, child!

But:
Vanilla doomers, minimalistic-detail oldschool mappers and anyone who has ever said: "-It just doesn´t feel very doomy" may not enjoy that wad.

And that´s all i´m gonna say...

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DooMikE said:

Holy fucking keyhunt - pardon my french...and in a couple of the maps the keys were also too hard to find.


Actually, I found it often the opposite. I had tons of keys, but I didn't know what doors to put them into. E1M3 was in particular like this.

I quite liked the Bruiser brothers boss fight. They looked cool, though I can't really remember what they did. (except trying to kill me of course) The Magmantis fight was really not my cup of tea. It wasn't fun, the Magmantis looked terrible. (bad FMV sequence style) So I dunno why it was even there.

I also didn't care for the coronas. They looked like balls of cotton or something. The low resolution didn't help any there either. If you wanted coronas so badly, why not at least give them a higher resolution?

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I am gonna go totally against the flow here. Yeah sure I spent some serious time on KDiZD wandering around lost. But for me, that actually added to the experience. The maps were disorientating in places, and often I couldn't work out what was my next objective. But consider, if I was a marine, that is exactly how it would be. How to override security locks and shut down fusion generators I'm pretty sure don't fall within a typical marine's duties. it added to the sense of being overwhelmed, and of being totally on your own, having to rely on your own resources.

So I just made myself not get frustrated and enjoyed exploring the levels. Not everything should be handed to us. I always say that I don't like a game that is too "linear" , and then I complain when I am forced to look for a solution that isn't right in front of me.

Though to be fair, KDiZD did perhaps err a little too much on the "wander around lost" scale. There was this one level where I had the (*ahem) blue key, the orange key, the magenta key, the beige key, the puce key, the Khaki (Hehe, I made a funny... god that was terrible) the off-white key, and the lilac key, and I still needed the fluorescent green key and the gold key.

Once I had all the keys, I accessed a switch that shut down a generator on the far side of pluto, thereby allowing me to access a shuttle parked somewhere in the andromeda galaxy.) (Good thing that ZDoom has a far increased SEGS limit than the original Doom2.exe eh! Now thats some serious mapping)

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Kyka said:

Ok.... So I've just finished playing through KDiZD, and frankly, I loved it. I was just curious to see what other people thought of it as a whole.

I did a map-by-map review when the game was first released.

It is a very detailed review, and will take quite a while to read through. When I wrote it, I put one (sometimes two) map reviews up per day, which made it easier to read.

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Today I almost finished KDiZD and so far I really liked it. Since I don´t play ZDoom tailored levels very often I was quite impressed with the detailing in some areas.

Kyka said:

I am gonna go totally against the flow here. Yeah sure I spent some serious time on KDiZD wandering around lost. But for me, that actually added to the experience.


I also generally enjoyed the environment puzzles and for the most part they weren´t too obscure for me. I only got lost for some time in that vast underground area of the Toxin Refinery remake (I think it was that map), where the author chained a number of switch and key objectives together in a rather obscure way.

I liked how some of the levels felt like advanced versions of the original levels, with better sense of place and many new areas to explore. Some levels were barely recognisable, but that wasn´t a bad thing since I didn´t expect this to be a remake of episode1 but rather inspired by it.

The new enemies also added to the experience and fit well into the Doom world, except that lion looking creatures with the shields. I found the Hellraiser themed cubes with the faces on them especially cool.

Now I stopped playing the final level Phobos Anomaly because it got too frustrating. After the fight against the numerous Hell Barons in the hellish arena I only have like 10 shotgun shells and 3 rockets left, how am I supposed to fight those cyborg hell knights back in the pentagram shaped arena?

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As mentioned somewhere already, the boss fight is indeed frustrating without the right weapon. The problem is that you only can find it in secret areas. I hope that this will be fixed, once the updated version is out someyear.

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Necro!

Basically, for the first five levels or so, I felt that the WAD worked well enough, especially in seizing elements from the Doom Bible and plonking them down into the new engine. However, once I hit M6 or so, it seemed to take a downturn: The ammo distribution seemed to assume that you had dug out all of the secrets and found the rifle, so there were numerous points where I was totally dry on M7 and M8, especially the latter. I don't really think a WAD should assume secret-finding.

As for the backtracking, I didn't really mind... But then again, I'm a huge HeXen fan, too.

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I enjoyed it, but I did NOT care for the Quake Chthon-esque boss. I think the UberBarons(TM) as the others have been calling them was a satisfying finish.

Oh and props for using the Warcraft III Necropolis noise on that ritual star!

Truth be told my gaming roots and my "true calling" is puzzle and adventure games. Myst was the very first game I played...

Though I enjoy FPSes as well. I kind of had mixed feelings, trying to decide if KDiZD was meant to be "epic atmosphere > DOOM feeling" or "DOOM feeling > epic atmosphere". In the end I decided it didn't matter.

The WAD was great frankly. I think you guys did a great job at showcasing the engine.

(P.S. - I hated those goofy lion-headed demons. Looked like a bad MSPainting of Barons of Hell, didn't seem DOOMesque.)

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1) The hell guardians or warriors or whatstheirname contain two classic Doom pictures: the lion head from the switches and the eye-in-symbol from that obstacle thing. Thus they're instead very Doomy.

2) The game was assuming you were searching for switches because that's what most players were really doing back then, thanks to that scoring system of sorts that would unlock another secret level, a good one at it. People were really motivated to find secrets, so the finding of the Rifle wasn't so improbable.

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printz said:

1) The hell guardians or warriors or whatstheirname contain two classic Doom pictures: the lion head from the switches and the eye-in-symbol from that obstacle thing. Thus they're instead very Doomy.

2) The game was assuming you were searching for switches because that's what most players were really doing back then, thanks to that scoring system of sorts that would unlock another secret level, a good one at it. People were really motivated to find secrets, so the finding of the Rifle wasn't so improbable.

I agree about the Hell Warrior and would probably consider it one of my favorite custom monsters, but I do think the hiding of some secrets in KDiZD was rather excessive.

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I liked this alot actually. It was very different and the atmosphere was amazing. The bruiser brothers gave an awesome fight sequence. I never had trouble with the keys either.

The two things that I didn't like was that the grenade launcher was too risky to use so I baely used it unless I was dropping them in a pit or something, and the magmantis guy at the end. He looked horrible, very ugly, and the fight itself while cool in some sense, just did not seem fitting.

Other than that, it was a can of awesome.

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Pretty good, but I still can't get over all the drama it caused. That was the first time in all the time I've spent on Doomworld that I saw a /newstuff chronicle locked.

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While the lion headed guys might fit in Hexen or something like that, the first thing I thought when I saw them was of Walt Disney cartoons and furries. Hence I can't say they really worked for me, atmospherically :p

StoneFrog said:
I think the UberBarons(TM) as the others have been calling them was a satisfying finish.

Yeah, the bruiser demons were nice.

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printz said:

1) The hell guardians or warriors or whatstheirname contain two classic Doom pictures: the lion head from the switches and the eye-in-symbol from that obstacle thing. Thus they're instead very Doomy


Heh, that lion head must be from some public domain picture, I remember seeing the same on textures in Arena. (Or was it Daggerfall? I'll check it out.)

They're a nice monster, for sure, but they look like they'd more at home in "City of the ZDamned" or "Zeven Portals" than in a Doom project. Thematically, I don't find it appropriate for demons to use equipment other than cybernetic enhancement. Holding a shield is especially strange because they don't exhibit any sense of self-preservation.

Edit: Checked out, it was from Daggerfall. Look, don't you recognize two old friends from these faces?

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StoneFrog said:

Pff. Arena > Daggerfall. It was a lot more stable and had some nice little additions and more non linearness.


Lol, additions in Arena? It was the first game of the series, nothing it had could have been additions! (But seriously, except for the destroy wall/floor spells and the possibility to drive a small boat, I can't think of anything from Arena that wasn't also in Daggerfall. On the other hand, Daggerfall was full of features. As for non-linearness, I'll let the UESP compare both games. Arena isn't the one with multiple concurrent questlines, alternate paths, and optional quests...)

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Interesting pic Gez. I'd no idea they featured in DF.

As for the KDiZD monster, I thought it was absolutely fine and fitting. I thought his head was fine and coupled with the satyr brought some of the classical daemon feel to the WAD but in a way that was perfectly in keeping with existing Doom imagery.

I also thought that some of the other monsters, especially the soul harvester and the shadow were great - two of the best additional monsters that have been made IMO. Both the SH and the shadow are very usable as good staple additional monsters for a WAD. They are not overpowering but, rather, nice atmosphere enhancers that can be added to the ranks of cannon fodder without being more major additions that a Baron-alike (etc) requiring a longer battle to take down would be.

The SH is functionally almost exactly the same as the Heretic Mummy leader but his emaciated imp appearance and haunting sounds makes him look like a horrible, creepy tortured soul of an enemy. Great!

The shadow, I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something about him that makes him look a little undoomy to me. It's not a big issue and he is definitely a very well done freaky little enemy with a nice change of behaviour from the standard see-follow-shoot AI. But there is something, and I don't know what, that makes him not quite a Doom monster for me. Is he a bit too grey alien-esque? Is he a bit too ghostbusters? Is it just his almost black colouring or perhaps the very fluid way in which he moves? I dunno. I still think he is absolutely superb though and it's only a minor nag at the back of my mind.

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Thanks for that Enjay :)

One of the reasons why the Shadow may look undoomy to you is the fact, that it's actually the first monster I drew entirely from scratch!
I for myself am not completely satisfied how it turned out as well, because although I always try to stick to Doom's artwork as closely as possible, my own "style" comes through in anything I make... not necessarily a bad thing I guess.
If you compare the shadow sprites with an Imp for instance, you will still see differences in terms of style, even more if you take a closer look :P
Anyway I think it worked out well enough after all!

Concerning the Hellwarrior;
I made more or less in a rush and although I've been happy with it back then, I also think this isn't one of my best sprite works.
However, I still like the idea of the lion head and the shield!

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Vader said:

Concerning the Hellwarrior;
I made more or less in a rush and although I've been happy with it back then, I also think this isn't one of my best sprite works.
However, I still like the idea of the lion head and the shield!

The Hellwarrior was without any doubt my favourite monster in KDiZD along with the Soul Harvester.I hope both will be in TSoZD as well.

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I noticed that the shadow wasn't that "impy" in appearance. In fact, I always thought he might be the archvile's naughty little brother or something. His wide-spaced almost running stride as he walks reminds me a lot of the archie's walking sequence. Maybe that's why he looks a little undoomy to me? Perhaps he fits more in my head as a Doom2 kind of creature and perhaps that made him look out of place to me on Phobos?

Actually, the Satyr should get an honorable mention too. (OK, so I mentioned him before in passing.) I know that it really seems to be a love it or hate it monster but I definitely fall into the love it camp. I think he is well sprited, his attack swipes flow well and his little goaty legs look just right to me. His horned goaty head and general appearance is classic daemon/mythological creature and his presence, stalking the corridors of a moon base, really underlines that strange clash of ancient evil and futuristic tech that is Doom. Also, I think it's due to the way he walks, he reminds me very much of the "birdman" from the Doom3 preview videos. You know that bit where you see one walking down a shadowy corridor towards the camera?

As an enemy to battle, he doesn't pose much/any threat at a distance but let him in close, or get trapped in a cramped place with him and he'll tear you a new one. He has just enough hit points to stop him being a pushover but few enough that he doesn't come into the almost-tough-enough-to-be-a-mini-boss category. A nice balance.

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Hate to bring up those bruiser demons again, but another thing that discerned be from the final final boss was that demon sound from the Doom commercial that was used as the intro, was cut out and used as the death sound of the bruiser demons. That kinda alliteration really left a kind of satisfaction after they were defeated.

Seeing the 'real' boss for the first time, i just peeked at it and said "ughhh.. I quit." I can tell that was a last minute idea and surely wasn't introduced during the early planning stages.

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Enjay said:
I thought his head was fine and coupled with the satyr

Actually, while devils as popularly depicted are satyr-based, the satyr is a pretty un-demonic mythological beast with an exaggerated (lascivious) but human-like nature. DOOM's monsters on the other hand show only a malignant will to kill. There is little "magic" in them, and they are only an evil force of violence; they are less wondrous and more extreme. Monsters that are animal-like are good in fantasy games like Heretic and Hexen II for that reason. In DOOM some vague animalness can be used to make them monstrous, even in a vague classical way, but put any more of that and they start to feel awkward.

I think Gez is right about giving the hellish monsters only implanted technological devices or cybernetic parts. Were the cyberdemon a similar monster with a helmet and an huge axe, it wouldn't fit the game as well as the semi-mechanic rocket spamming terror that it is. Maulotaurs are nice in Heretic, however.

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