Russia Invades Georgia

[Dr. Zin]

Mindless Rambler said:

On the plus side, we could finally settle the great AK vs. AR15 debate.

If it was going to be settled it would have been settled in Vietnam, or the Iraq War, or the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. The basic fact is that both rifles have great strengths but also fundamental flaws. Every service rifle does. It is a matter of choosing which aspects the designers want to emphasize in the platform.

Anyway, I do not forsee any intervention by either the U.S. or European nations in this conflict due to great conseqences such actions would have on the world's balance.

[Kyka]

Whoah Whoah Lets not get carried away here. Sherman's march to the sea? Atlanta?

Last time I checked, Atlanta isn't exactly a military hotspot. (Not since Martin Luther King and the calling out of the National Guard at any rate.)

This situation in Georgia is a localised, regional conflict, on the other side of the planet, and it will stay that way. Reading the news, Georgia started it, and now Georgia is already backing down. People on both sides would have to do a long series of really stupid things for it to get to the point of a showdown between the US and Russia. This is a long way from there. As Dr. Zin said, no one will intervene on account of the consequences.

Though admittedly relations between Russia and America aren't exactly at a high point, from what I read.

[40oz]

The last thing I want is to be a part of a country that has to interject themselves into every dire situation and try to restore order. Being an American is really shameful sometimes.

[Maes]

That's what you get for pursuing an all-out "orange revolution"...oh well.

[Naked Snake]

Kyka said:

Whenever Russia gets involved in a war, it always seems to be particularly brutal. Not saying that Russians are a more brutal people, but their wars always seem to be.

This looks like an ugly conflict. I hope it can be resolved, though it does not look easily resolvable. One of my good friends is Russian, and has recently joined the military (Australian) as a combat engineer. If he was still in Russia, he may have ended up fighting in this conflict himself.

Don't sugar coat it. Yes, the Russian military tends to be brutal, I don't think they've had a reputation otherwise. Sending the Russian Army somewhere is like unleashing a natural disaster. A whirlwind of destruction and devastation, rape and plunder. The Russians know how to have a good time.

[Technician]

I think I'll change my avatar now.

[Maes]

Naked Snake said:

Sending the Russian Army somewhere is like unleashing a natural disaster. A whirlwind of destruction and devastation, rape and plunder. The Russians know how to have a good time.

I know of no army that has been received or perceived aser 100% good and righteous, in the end. Even the most "righteous" and "welcome" invading or "liberation" armies made themselves guilty of those crimes, at some scale, even if a very small one. This includes the Allied liberation forces in Europe during WW II (and I don't mean the Soviet side...).

Even in Kossovo, despite the widespread pro-U.S. bias in the (albanian) population, you can be certain to find several albanians with something bad to say about the U.S. Army.

[Kyka]

Maes said:

I know of no army that has been received or perceived aser 100% good and righteous, in the end. Even the most "righteous" and "welcome" invading or "liberation" armies made themselves guilty of those crimes, at some scale, even if a very small one. This includes the Allied liberation forces in Europe during WW II (and I don't mean the Soviet side...).

Well said Maes. Every army is brutal simply because of what they are there for. Armies exist to kill. And whether that killing is perceived as for a good cause or an evil one, the killing itself is always terrible. Lets not be too quick to judge the Russians. They have had a pretty terrible century, lets face it. WWI, the Russian Revolution, the great depression, Stalin, WW2, Communism, Gulags, the collapse of their country, regional wars, bankruptcy, persecutions, the KGB, the list goes on.


"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years."

Alexander Solzhenitsyn

[Death-Destiny]

Abraham Lincoln said:
Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?

Kyka, you loser. You already took the Abraham Lincoln quote I wanted to mention. Too bad no one realizes this in their frenzy to kill each other faster, though. I wonder if there will ever be world peace. I doubt it. :(

[GreyGhost]

There are several agenda's in play here. The people of South Ossetia want to secede from Georgia and presumably reunite with their northern kinfolk - Georgia doesn't want to compromise it's territorial integrity. Georgia wants to join NATO - Russia doesn't want another US ally on it's border. While this conflict will probably be resolved within the next fortnight the underlying issues will continue to simmer and occasionally boil over.

"Keep your friends close - hold your enemies closer" - old Arabian proverb

[Kyka]

Death-Destiny said:

Kyka, you loser. You are now my enemy for taking my quote, and from now on, I.... uhh... what was the quote again? :p

Sorry DD for stealing your thunder. Glad that you share the sentiments in the quote tho. In regards to world peace, it will come.

[myk]

Death-Destiny said:
Too bad no one realizes this in their frenzy to kill each other faster, though.

Including Lincoln himself, as he was involved as a leader in the war that killed the biggest number of Americans ever. It's possible that the quote was made up or misattributed, though, as it does not seem to have an authoritative confirmation (nor date and context) behind it.

[Ralphis]

Kyka said:

In regards to world peace, it will come.

It's ok, you can come out of your space bubble now.

[Kira]

Our french 'president' is going to Moscow to tell them his sense of moralism, it sucks for us.

[Kyka]

Ralphis said:

It's ok, you can come out of your space bubble now.

Hehe... I can understand how my comment would appear that way Ralphis. But think about it. World peace is absolutely inevitable.

Consider... Either

1) We all annihilate each other in a nuclear firestorm/terminal virus outbreak/something else equally terrible (from which moment there will be world peace)

2)We all go to heaven/hell/nirvana/ live with Elvis on mars/way over there somewhere/whatever/ from which point there will be world peace.

3) We all learn to live together in peace with the world as it is now. (this is the "rofl" option, though we can hope).

So there. You see.. World peace. Of course, there is always the possibility the we will exist as we are now, with wars and division forever, but if you think about it, this is virtually impossible. Life on this planet is doing one of two things. Either it is getting inevitably worse (in which case we all die sooner or later... tadaaa.. world peace) or it is slowly and painfully getting better (in which case we will learn to live in peace sooner or later)

Tell the truth, I don't even know what a space bubble is. I assume from the context that it means something along the lines of "you are living in a place totally disconnected from the real world." Well if thats true, then people like Martin Luther King lived in a space bubble too. This is a quote from one of his speeches, my favorite.

"I refuse to accept the idea that man is mere flotsom and jetsom in the river of life unable to influence the unfolding events which surround him. I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality.

I refuse to accept the cynical notion that nation after nation must spiral down a militaristic stairway into the hell of thermonuclear destruction. I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right temporarily defeated is stronger than evil triumphant...

I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. I believe that what self-centered men have torn down, men other-centered can build up. I still believe that one day mankind will bow before the altars of God and be crowned triumphant over war and bloodshed, and nonviolent redemptive goodwill will proclaim the rule of the land...

I still believe that we shall overcome. "

Damn this has turned into a long post. Oh well. Blame the Reverend King. It's his fault. :p

[Fletcher`]

Technician said:

I think I'll change my avatar now.

Well there's always the swastika

[Kyka]

rf` said:

Well there's always the swastika

Maybe Technician could do it like the swastika from E1M4. First it was left faced, then it was right faced, then it turned into a funny rectangle thing that wasn't a swastika at all.

Not that I'm a big fan of swastikas myself.

[Sharessa]

rf` said:

Well there's always the swastika

(hey, is it okay to use this now that his approval rating is so low and he's on his way out anyway?)

[Haloless0320]

I haven't heard if the US was gonna play world police again or not.

[Dr. Zin]

Kyka said:

So there. You see.. World peace. Of course, there is always the possibility the we will exist as we are now, with wars and division forever, but if you think about it, this is virtually impossible. Life on this planet is doing one of two things. Either it is getting inevitably worse (in which case we all die sooner or later... tadaaa.. world peace) or it is slowly and painfully getting better (in which case we will learn to live in peace sooner or later)

Or there can be equilibrium. If one looks at world politics over the last few millenia they will see that actors (i.e. nations and other social groups) within a particular region engage in conflict until an equilibrium is reached. The equilibrium tends to hold until an outside power comes in and upsets the balance.


One could look at Western, Northern, and parts of Central Europe and see that equilibrium has been reached between the various social groups there. While there are squabbles and such they are overall quite cooperative. They will likely remain so for some time, maybe even a century or so.

The main shifters of power in the world are supernations; which occur when one social group is able to gain access to large amounts of territory. The Persian Empire, the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire the United States, and Russia could be considered supernations. However powerful these supernations are, they all eventually lose cohesion. The central social groups begins to fragment into subcultures, and eventually these subcultures become their own distinct groups. When the supernation becomes fragmented enough it collapses, and these subcultures create their own nations. This brings us back to the beginning of the regional cycle, where nations fight wars among themselves until a balance of power is reached.

Of course, this is all just my own view.

[ellmo]

Death-Destiny said:

I wonder if there will ever be world peace. I doubt it. :(

No, because the world's population is increasing, meaning there will always be war somewhere (as it is now).

GreyGhost said:

"Keep your friends close - hold your enemies closer" - old Arabian proverb

I like this one (tho I'm clueless about who said it):
The point of war is not to die for your country, it's to make your enemy do it.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

I miss fodders.

[Dr. Zin]

ellmo said:

I like this one (tho I'm clueless about who said it):
The point of war is not to die for your country, it's to make your enemy do it.

I believe that was George Patton (in different phrasing).

[ellmo]

Dr. Zin said:

I believe that was George Patton (in different phrasing).

Could be. I failed to find the exact quote on the net, so I've taken the liberty to paraphrase :]

[Kyka]

Dr. Zin said:

I believe that was George Patton (in different phrasing).

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country."

This quote was not actually spoken by Patton himself, but was spoken by George C. Scott, who played General Patton in the movie "Patton."

Although Patton may have said it originally, there is no official record of it.

[iceman57]

Prefer create own sentence :
"C'est parce que les puissants cultivent la haine pour mieux diviser les peuples que des hommes de toutes les époques se dressent pour faire triompher le bien..."
____________

Mmmmmmh.....................

Basically, I don't think if such topic as a real place on a forum, as we poor citiznens only have 1%, maybe 2% of the vision of a geopolitic situation.

This vision of 1% radically depends on our local medias that whenever we're leaving in democratic or half-democratic country is (almost always) censored or adapted. Opinion is hard with only fragmentary datas, the best way I advise you is to read a maximum of different foreign press and to mix with local press.

I readed a bit of papers about, and saw (lucky we are) that as France handles actually EU there's a meeting tomorrow in Russia.
What a nice shitbag to start the presidence, but who knows, maybe this'll calm down the situation.

Included Eiffel Tower picture especially dressed for EU presidence took this Saturday with my mobile phone from Trocadero place.

[Enjay]

Ah, the EU. European togetherness... Reminds me of another snapshot of Europeans from other countries celebrating in front of the Eiffel tower...

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :/

Haloless0320 said:

I haven't heard if the US was gonna play world police again or not.

Is there any oil involved?

[Dr. Zin]

Enjay said:

Is there any oil involved?

Belial said:

One particularly interesting comment I've heard on CNN that got completely ignored in later newscasts: after the apparently unsuccessful bombardment of an oil pipeline some analyst said that while this war is no surprise after the 10+ year long conflict he found it odd that the situation got heated up just as high oil prices that greatly aided the Russian economy were beginning to lower, not to mention the importance of Georgia as a transit country that would take Russia out of the loop to some degree if the planned pipelines were ever completed.

Mmm oil... sounds familiar.

[GreyGhost]

Enjay said:

Is there any oil involved?

Indirectly - there's the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline that delivers Caspian Sea oil to the Mediterranean and the Baku-Supsa pipeline that connects to the Black Sea. Don't know how much of an issue they'll become - depends on who's buying the oil.

[fodders]

There is so much bias on tv news on the Georgians side, where everyone ignores the fact that Georgia was the aggressor. CNN actually showed footage of troops claiming Russian troops were fighting civilians, it was actualy footage of Georgian troops.
The Russia Today satellite TV company aired the interview on its English language news channel but the story is yet to appear on the Internet or in any other news outlet.

The Russian cameraman charged that CNN had used his footage of Georgian forces attacking Russian civilians in Tskhinvali, the provincial capital of South Ossetia, but then claimed it showed Russians attacking Georgians in the Georgian town of Gori.
The Georgian assault on Tskhinvali, described as an act of genocide and a war crime by Russian officials and other eyewitnesses, led to the slaughter of at least 2,000 civilians. The fact that Georgia, backed by the U.S. and Israel, were responsible for the provocation that led to the Russian response, has been buried by the majority of western corporate media.

Western media bias to skew popular opinion in favor of the U.S. and NATO client state Georgia was evident from the very start of the conflict.