General critiques of the DHTP

[KuriKai]

The DHTP (Doom Hires Texture Pack) only needs 50 more textures until doom1 and doom2 have all there textures done in High Resolution.

Help is needed to make these textures.
You are allowed to use the textures already in the pack to make ones needed to be made.


These are the textures needed to be made
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1864/missingty9.png
http://doomtextures.freelanzer.com/missing2.png
http://doomtextures.freelanzer.com/missing3.png
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9226/d1missingck3.png


Regards KuriKai

EDIT by myk: This is a split-off thread. Go ahead and makes criticisms of a general nature about the DHTP in progress, and use the original thread for more practical and directly constructive criticism.

Original thread:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/44205-a-call-for-help/

[kristus]

I might get involved in making new hires textures for Doom, when Legacy 2 comes out since it got Normal map support. Before that it's just not interesting.

EDIT: I downloaded the pack and played a bit of Skulltag using the textures. Other than that the colors are almost all different over the textures. I don't notice any visual difference, or improvement for that matter. Most of the textures aren't even at the same visual quality of the original Doom textures. Tekgreen and all the liquid flats are examples of this being particularly noticeable.

[KuriKai]

kristus said:

I might get involved in making new hires textures for Doom, when Legacy 2 comes out since it got Normal map support. Before that it's just not interesting.

EDIT2: I downloaded the pack and played a bit of Skulltag using the textures. Other than that the colors are almost all different over the textures. I don't notice any visual difference, or improvement for that matter. Most of the textures aren't even at the same visual quality of the original Doom textures. Tekgreen and all the liquid flats are examples of this being particularly noticeable.

Make better versions then.

[kristus]

That they were of lesser quality was a side notation and hardly what I were saying. I were saying that the whole deal of making high res textures for Doom is well, pointless. At best the difference is largely unnoticeable, and at worst it looks uncomfortable and out of place.

[peoplethought]

Playing video games is pointless. This is an interesting project and it is a good way to exercise your abilities. I'm doing this as a test of my own ability, and that's reason enough for me to do it. Also, I notice a big difference going from a 64 X 128 to a 256 x 512. The longer this goes on, the more better textures will replace the crummy ones.

And even if they don't all match up with quality, I think that's kind of neat. It's a collaborative thing and it's kind of similar to graffiti. The variety is interesting. It's fun to see how other people would interpret these textures that we've all seen so many times.

[Enjay]

They are nice textures but, comparing the originals side-by-side with the new ones, I don't think the new ones are very faithful to the originals: something that has been an important philosophy behind this texture pack.

A common criticism of previous texture packs is that the new textures don't remain faithful to the original ones and, as a result, change the look and feel of the levels in an undesirable way. As I understand it, one of the main goals of this texture pack was to not fall into that trap and to correct/replace existing textures that did.


In the above image, you can clearly see that the pinks in the new one are significantly darker than the original. The "eyelid" is a different shape. Perhaps it doesn't look as tightly shut as the original either or maybe it's just that extra grey colouring/detailing that makes it look that way. Also, the general shape and overall coverage of the pink skin is different enough to make it look different to the original and, possibly, not work well in existing maps that have accurately offset the original texture for some specific purpose.


This one has some of the same problems as the closed picture but, in addition, the eye isn't right IMO. The original eye is quite large whereas the new one is quite a beady little eye.


As I said, there textures don't look bad at all (actually, I think they look good) and, no, I certainly could not do better but (IMO) they do not capture enough of the feel of the originals to be a suitable replacement for them.



Speaking of which, last time I checked the various marble textures from the pack, I thought they looked quite pale and almost as if their surface was eroded, slightly rough or maybe powdery. The originals look far more like smooth, polished marble to me. That wasn't with the most recent version though. Has that been addressed?

[peoplethought]

I made these mostly for myself. I didn't read any rules about this or that. I thought the purpose was not only to increase the resolution, but to improve on the original design if possible. If it were up to me, the replacements would be the artists interpretation of the original textures.

I can see this texture fitting into the Doom universe, regardless of wether it matches the original. There is no problem with alignment, I pretty much traced over the original to get the shape of it (which is pretty clear when you place them side by side).

I can't imagine anyone seeing this texture in game and thinking "What! That is not entirely like original. It is similar but not incredibly accurate. My experience is completely ruined now!"

[kristus]

peoplethought said:

Playing video games is pointless.

Hardly. It's a form of entertainment, which is hardly pointless. It's also activates the brain, and allows people to train their motor skills, ability to do different things at once and so on.

[esselfortium]

peoplethought said:

I can't imagine anyone seeing this texture in game and thinking "What! That is not entirely like original. It is similar but not incredibly accurate. My experience is completely ruined now!"

The problem is when you have an entire set of texture replacements that are similar but not accurate, and none of them match up or look right.

[Enjay]

peoplethought said:

I can see this texture fitting into the Doom universe, regardless of wether it matches the original.

As can I, but that wasn't the point I was making.

peoplethought said:

There is no problem with alignment, I pretty much traced over the original to get the shape of it (which is pretty clear when you place them side by side).

But the thickness of the pink bit (top to bottom) right in the middle isn't as tall as the original - that's what I meant. It isn't much, but it does give the pink area a smaller appearance and could create an alignment issue (although that's unlikely I must admit).

peoplethought said:

I can't imagine anyone seeing this texture in game and thinking "What! That is not entirely like original. It is similar but not incredibly accurate. My experience is completely ruined now!"

However, that's exactly how people have reacted to previous texture packs and it's one of the things that KuriKai originally set out to avoid.


I just want to make absolutely clear; I don't think the texture is bad - not at all - but I don't think it is a suitable faithful replacement for the original.

[peoplethought]

"Hardly. It's a form of entertainment, which is hardly pointless. It's also activates the brain, and allows people to train their motor skills, ability to do different things at once and so on"

Your trained motor skills will hardly help you at any job where you'd be doing "real" work. I can't imagine any truly productive situation in the modern world in which your ability the shoot at virtual moving objects would help you. If we're talking about truly pointless things than anything outside making money and eating and sleeping fits into that category.

My point was someone said making these replacements was pointless, and I was trying to make the point that the poster being here on this website talking about video games is pointless in itself.

If the textures I made aren't put into the replacements then that's fine with me. I did it as an exercise, not to give obsessive compulsive people something to compare.

[Fusion]

peoplethought said:

Playing video games is pointless. This is an interesting project and it is a good way to exercise your abilities. I'm doing this as a test of my own ability, and that's reason enough for me to do it. Also, I notice a big difference going from a 64 X 128 to a 256 x 512. The longer this goes on, the more better textures will replace the crummy ones.

And even if they don't all match up with quality, I think that's kind of neat. It's a collaborative thing and it's kind of similar to graffiti. The variety is interesting. It's fun to see how other people would interpret these textures that we've all seen so many times.

I totally agree, except playing video games isn't pointless, it's fun!

[Fusion]

Enjay said:

They are nice textures but, comparing the originals side-by-side with the new ones, I don't think the new ones are very faithful to the originals: something that has been an important philosophy behind this texture pack.

A common criticism of previous texture packs is that the new textures don't remain faithful to the original ones and, as a result, change the look and feel of the levels in an undesirable way. As I understand it, one of the main goals of this texture pack was to not fall into that trap and to correct/replace existing textures that did.

In the above image, you can clearly see that the pinks in the new one are significantly darker than the original. The "eyelid" is a different shape. Perhaps it doesn't look as tightly shut as the original either or maybe it's just that extra grey colouring/detailing that makes it look that way. Also, the general shape and overall coverage of the pink skin is different enough to make it look different to the original and, possibly, not work well in existing maps that have accurately offset the original texture for some specific purpose.

This one has some of the same problems as the closed picture but, in addition, the eye isn't right IMO. The original eye is quite large whereas the new one is quite a beady little eye.


As I said, there textures don't look bad at all (actually, I think they look good) and, no, I certainly could not do better but (IMO) they do not capture enough of the feel of the originals to be a suitable replacement for them.



Speaking of which, last time I checked the various marble textures from the pack, I thought they looked quite pale and almost as if their surface was eroded, slightly rough or maybe powdery. The originals look far more like smooth, polished marble to me. That wasn't with the most recent version though. Has that been addressed?

It's really nice to see constructive criticism. Enjay u are a class act. And ya, i agree 100% with Enjay.. very nice texture, but still needs a bit of work to remain true to doom. Slight changes in color/design will cause the textures to look out of place in game as most rooms are designed with a color theme in mind. That pink fleshy texture is also used in the Skin series and many other textures, so it's important the the color hue is at least accurate. Otherwise once seamless rooms will look like a mishmosh of ugly colors when using the high res textures.

I'm really not fond of the startan series with the new textures, I think they have too much contrast and look way too blocky versus the originals. I'm working on remaking some textures from the above list, but nothing is near releasable quality and I'm working on a lot of projects atm.

[KuriKai]

esselfortium said:

The problem is when you have an entire set of texture replacements that are similar but not accurate, and none of them match up or look right.

Shut up, most of the textures are very accurate and you would not be able to tell the difference if the high res one was scaled to the original size.
Yes the textures in the pack are the artists interpretation, they have to be, because the originals are so low detail.
And who knows, what you think the textures are MIGHT be wrong
Take your argument out of this thread

[myk]

Fusion said:
That pink fleshy texture is also used in the Skin series and many other textures, so it's important the the color hue is at least accurate. Otherwise once seamless rooms will look like a mishmosh of ugly colors when using the high res textures.

Not necessarily accurate in regard to the originals, but yes consistent between each other. Given peoplethought's artistic skill, which is clear, in the long run he might be able to touch up all of the related skin textures so they are fit very well with each other, and yet it might not be necessary for them to be totally faithful to the originals in the way Enjay implied*. But you can't realistically expect such cohesion from all the textures in a short term, but gradually instead.

* Enjay's argument seems to me rather disruptive of the creativity of the contributing artists; you might as well just do mere (semi-automated) resizes recolored from indexed to RGB instead of new art, to obtain such a result accurately.

[peoplethought]

Well I'm not that interested in contributing if I have to try my hardest to do an exact replication of the original images. I thought it would be better to breath some new life into the textures. So if I can do anymore with a bit of creative freedom, fleshy ones in particular, then I'll help.

[Enjay]

myk said:

* Enjay's argument seems to me rather disruptive of the creativity of the contributing artists; you might as well just do mere (semi-automated) resizes recolored from indexed to RGB instead of new art, to obtain such a result accurately.

If it came across that way, then I am sorry. I really didn't want to do something that disrupted the creativity of any contributing, or potential contributing, artist.

However, I think it is important to point out that one of the guiding principles behind this texture pack is to create a texture pack with hi-res textures that are far more faithful to the originals than the packs that have gone before. The reason for this is that one of the most common complaints about the texture packs that have been created to date is that they are not faithful to the originals. This has been identified as a factor in their relative lack of popularity. One of the main reasons that this texture pack was conceived was to try and address that. It has been discussed at some length on the development forums for the texture pack.

As such, textures that are not faithful to the originals aren't suitable for inclusion in such a pack IMO. That doesn't mean they are bad textures, merely not appropriate. If KuriKai accepts textures that are not faithful to the originals, then this texture pack will end up being like the others that already exist: possibly very nice but not being a faithful representation of the originals and therefore the pack will have failed in one of its primary goals.

I know that it isn't necessarily a popular position with some potential contributors - who understandably want their own creativity to shine through and their own interpretation of what the texture should look like to be apparent. I can very much understand their point of view and love seeing and using textures like that myself (in fact, I'm already using these switch textures in my own install of Risen3D). But that wasn't the reason for starting this texture pack.

[myk]

I think getting too nitpicky in that respect is counterproductive in such a project because the textures are already being used in an environment that is different from DOOM's standard one due to the 3D card lighting and the models. To be really faithful to the originals, just stick to the original work in software mode or light hardware modes, or to high res re-samples of it. A degree of faithfulness to the originals makes sense (otherwise just play some other game) but unless you want artists on a leash (which makes them lose interest), you've got to let them find their point of cohesion and style, little by little.

I've split the thread so the general comments about the project's direction wouldn't spam out productive posts.

[Enjay]

Feel free to skip past this post and reply tl:dr. ;)

Whilst I have no objection to the thread splitting, I'd say that my post where I compare the textures side by side with the original should really belong in the other thread. It was (and is) a direct comparison of a pair of submitted textures and (I had hoped) constructive criticism of them. It was precisely that kind of critique that I made of some of the earlier textures for the pack and the capacity to which I was invited to the project forums and contributed to them. I have made a number of comments about specific textures on there along similar lines and have been thanked for doing so.

The ancillary discussion was merely to put my comments in context as it may not have been immediately obvious why I was criticising apparently good textures in such a way.

Anyway, seeing as how this is now a general discussion of the texture pack, it probably is worth opening it up and looking at a few related points. I'd be interested to hear people's views on the matter.

1) Is the original direction of the pack an appropriate one?

Background: Almost a year ago, KuriKai started posting about the new pack that he wanted to create. He listened to comments and, obviously had ideas of his own. One common comment was that existing packs didn't feel enough like the Doom originals. Specifically, colouring was often wrong, or at least quite different, and often the various artists had used their own interpretations of the textures which, in turn (naturally) meant they looked different from the originals. At the time, KuriKai stated quite clearly that this one one of the problems that he intended to address with his new texture pack. It would be based on an existing texture pack but any textures that did not capture the look and feel of the originals well enough would be replaced with ones that did.

IMO, the original goal is still a suitable one. To date, I don't think there has been a complete texture pack that replaces the original Doom textures with high-res, high-quality versions that capture the feel of the originals well enough to satisfy the majority of Doomers who are likely to use them. So I still think that there is a need that should be filled if it can be. Allowing the goal to wander means that this texture pack will, IMO, become just another hi-res pack to add to the ones that already exist. I don't know if KuriKai still feels the same about it. Perhaps after a year and having to make most of the replacements himself, he has now decided to accept a bit of deviation from that original purpose.

Has the original goal put people off? Have my comments put people off? Possibly. That's not the intention but, equally, if someone is doing something that doesn't meet your needs, no matter how good it is, then is doesn't meet your needs. Is that counter-productive? I don't think so. If you have a goal that you want to meet, and someone provides work that doesn't meet the goal, then the goal has not been met. Accepting the contribution even if it doesn't meet the goal still leaves the goal unsatisfied. I don't see that being any more productive than telling a person that what they had contributed wasn't what was being sought and them then deciding the project isn't for them. Either way, your goal isn't met. Although it hasn't happened in this case, it could have been the case that peoplethought said "Oh, I see what you want, that's something I'd like to do". If it isn't his thing though, then it's not his thing and that's absolutely fine. I can understand why merely remaking a texture isn't a particularly appealing task.

If KuriKai wants to change the criteria for the project, or feels that the skin switches (for example) are close enough to what he wants, then all my hot air is just that, hot air. And that's fine. He's the project leader.

2) If the direction is not an appropriate, then is it still a valuable exercise?

I realise that sounds a bit loaded. It probably is. However, IMO, there are already at least 2 texture packs (with some common material) which share the originally identified problem of textures that do not convey enough of the original feel and one-ness of the original textures. Why bother to make another one?

IMO, there is little value to making another complete texture set that doesn't do the job this one was intended to. If there is no longer an overall goal of making a complete set of replacement textures, then I'd say there is no need to make a complete pack at all. Just package up the ones that have been improved and release them as an alternative upgrade pack for the existing packs in a similar way to what you can do for some of the models.

3) Are textures that are not close to the originals in feel still valuable?

IMO, absolutely, totally, very much, I do not want to imply otherwise at all. Case in point, I like peoplethought's switches. As I said, I'm already using them in my Risen 3D setup. They are significantly better than the ones that used to be in the hi-res pack that I was using. New textures are always welcome both from the perspective of a player and a mapper. Bring them on. If peoplethought wanted to go on and make more skin textures, I'd lap them up. Some of the skintech ones that I have been using are awful.

I fully take the point about having an artist on a leash. I think I even alluded to it myself in an earlier post. I has to be less attractive to an artist to merely try and recreate a piece of work and not put your own spin on it. I get that. Perhaps that's why there hasn't been a huge army of artists contributing to this pack and why KuriKai and a few others have been left to do so much of the work themselves. I'm not trying to devalue works which are clearly different to the original textures at all. All I'm saying is that they don't match the original goals of this project.

4) Is the pack still valuable if it strays away from the original goal?

IMO, no, not hugely.

Why? Because there are already some packs out there that replace the original textures with reinterpretations. I don't see the need for another full pack that does the same. That job has already been done. As I said before, if the textures are, yet again, getting replaced with reinterpretations - rather than hi-res recreations - then why bother making up a whole pack with some already-seen textures. Just release a variations pack.

In fact, I'd welcome many variations. It'd be great to be able to visit a site and maybe download peoplethought's skin variations pack, and someone else's crate pack, and someone else's brick pack etc etc and be able to customise the textures in the game to your own tastes based on 101 combinations of little bits and pieces that can be layered on top of a good base pack of textures. Unfortunately, that good base pack hasn't been made yet.

As I said, people can already do something similar with models. There are a couple of full model packs then there are weapons variations, zombie variations, dead body variations, lights variations etc that can be loaded on top of them. Arguments about the quality of the models aside, that's a nice opportunity to have.


Short version of my opinions on the matter:

So, what am I saying?

That there has not yet been a texture pack that reasonably and faithfully recreates the original Doom textures in a satisfying and complimentary way.

That there are already a number of packs that provide alternative hi-res textures. However, they do not keep the feel of the original textures but in a high resolution form.

There is a need for a texture pack that keeps the feel of the original textures but in a high resolution form.

The original goal of this project was to create a texture set that keeps the feel of the original textures but in a high resolution form. That goal is still valuable and has yet to be achieved.

Textures such as those which peoplethought contributed are a very welcome addition to the resources us Doomers have at our disposal, but they do not meet the criteria of this texture pack.



My opinion as to suitable solutions:

a) If the original goal of producing faithful recreations of the textures is still seen as important, stick with it. Even if it takes some time longer to get the pack finished, it's worth doing. Don't just accept textures that don't meet the criteria merely to get the pack "done".

b) If the original goal is no longer important, don't bother releasing the whole pack. A lot of the textures in it are not new to the pack so old material would simply be getting re-released. Instead, just release a pack of the new textures.

[KuriKai]

That was a good read and encouraging for me.
and has made me decide not to inclue the skin switch textures until they are closser to the originals.

It is very had doing this all almost by myself. and I will keep theoriginal goal of this pack, true to the originals.

[Enjay]

Well, I'm certainly pleased to hear that. :) As I've said before, I only wish I had the skills required to make a more solid contribution to the project rather than merely being some guy in the sidelines who moans endlessly about the contributions. ;)

I realise that it must be very hard doing so much of the work yourself but I do feel that you have made some very good new textures, very close to the feel of the originals in a way that previous attempts have not been and I'm glad that you are sticking with it. :D

[CeeJay]

Hmmm... Am i the only one how is aware that the ROCK4 texure is actually a hi-res version of a Wolf3D texture (64x64 - 128x128)? I think it is the one from the Macintosh port of Wolf3D, which makes sense because id software did use textures from the game for the two secret levels in Doom 2.

Seems kinda silly to make a hi-res version of a already hi-res texture.

[KuriKai]

what are you talking about?
I see no rock4 texture

[CeeJay]

KuriKai said:

what are you talking about?
I see no rock4 texture

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1864/missingty9.png

ROCK4 next to ROCK5. Where are you looking?

[KuriKai]

I was looking in the already completed textures.
can you tell me what you think the texture looks like and how I would give detail to it when I make it high resolution please

[CeeJay]

KuriKai said:

I was looking in the already completed textures.
can you tell me what you think the texture looks like and how I would give detail to it when I make it high resolution please

Some weird brownish rock/brick wall that looks like it will fall apart any second (most of the brick/rocks are potrouding badly), don't know what else to say. Don't know if any more detail, other than making all the bricks bigger, could be done to it. Maybe some cracks and holes would fit in nicely.

[myk]

CeeJay said:
Am i the only one how is aware that the ROCK4 texure is actually a hi-res version of a Wolf3D texture (64x64 - 128x128)? I think it is the one from the Macintosh port of Wolf3D, which makes sense because id software did use textures from the game for the two secret levels in Doom 2.

They used those in many of their games changing the colors somewhat; there are versions in Quake and Quake 2.

[peoplethought]

Ok, it's absurd that someone would put that much effort into creating a post that large to defend something they haven't even had a hand in. I get what you're saying but holy shit, you sound like you're writing a book over here. This has convinced me to pass on helping with this project.

[Death-Destiny]

peoplethought said:

Ok, it's absurd that someone would put that much effort into creating a post that large to defend something they haven't even had a hand in. I get what you're saying but holy shit, you sound like you're writing a book over here.

Ask me about texture resources! ;-)

[Enjay]

peoplethought said:

Ok, it's absurd that someone would put that much effort into creating a post that large to defend something they haven't even had a hand in.

I had a bit of spare time. ;)

Sorry that I've put you off contributing but I also understand why. I hope you still fancy making some textures, perhaps for general use, because I do like what you did and us doomers always need good quality textures.

Death-Destiny said:

Ask me about texture resources! ;-)

And I was going to put an "in b4 'ask me about...'" post after my main one but then I thought nah. ;)