The Dream Mod

[Creaphis]

We probably all fantasize about "the" mod, don't we? The project we could make which would astound all who saw it - which would imprint our name on the minds of, not only every Doomer, but myriads of people from all walks of life. A work great enough to make our future deathbeds comfortable, with the thought "At least I made such-and-such." Some of us do ultimately create our masterpieces, while I'm a lazy bastard. But still: I like to distract myself now and again by refining a certain concept which may someday see light. Anyways, here's what this has to do with the Doom Editing forum...

As currently envisioned, it's a Doom 2 levelset, Boom compatible (there's still a lot of juice in that old engine), with level 30 being the last level. Today, I finally thought of the perfect ending - a delicious punchline revealed when the endpic, after the final boss is defeated, scrolls left. And then, OH CRAP, I remember, it's the end of episode 3 in Doom 1 that does that, while the end of Doom 2 just has a single 320*200 graphic which is obscured by a Doom's monsters coming out for their final bow. So, even though this problem won't need to be solved for years yet even in the best case, I'm curious:

1. Is it possible to rig it via Boom's version of DeHackEd or Esselmagic for Doom 2 to end like Doom 1 in that way (I doubt it)?

2. Is it possible to rig it via ACS or MAPINFO for Doom 2 to end like Doom 1 in that way (I'm sure it is, but I'd prefer for all engines to get the same wicked-sweet ending)?

3. Making this into a Doom 1 wad would solve this problem, and would also prevent the need for the player to warp to a level in the 20s to start playing (this levelset could begin at the start of episode 3). I would want to use some Doom 2 monsters in the wad, and it is possible to use Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 if their ID numbers or thing numbers or something are changed via DeHacked, and this wad would have some DeHackEd work anyway. However, this would also require copying many of Doom 2's sprites and some textures to the pwad. Does this cross the line into unacceptable levels of rippage?

[Butts]

Probably.




an extremely short answer for an extremely long and well thought-out question. well more than one question...

but the answer to all is probably. im thinking that the scrolling ending is most unlikely to do in doom2 though. sorry cant offer any real help... maybe just use zdoom? or boom with doom2 and do some BEX work.

[esselfortium]

Creaphis said:
1. Is it possible to rig it via Boom's version of DeHackEd or Esselmagic for Doom 2 to end like Doom 1 in that way (I doubt it)?

No, DeHackEd has no control over this. :(

2. Is it possible to rig it via ACS or MAPINFO for Doom 2 to end like Doom 1 in that way (I'm sure it is, but I'd prefer for all engines to get the same wicked-sweet ending)?

MAPINFO yes. I believe Eternity's EMAPINFO is capable of doing the same thing, and it's possible to include both lumps in the same wad.

3. Making this into a Doom 1 wad would solve this problem, and would also prevent the need for the player to warp to a level in the 20s to start playing (this levelset could begin at the start of episode 3). I would want to use some Doom 2 monsters in the wad, and it is possible to use Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 if their ID numbers or thing numbers or something are changed via DeHacked, and this wad would have some DeHackEd work anyway.

Yes, but you wouldn't be able to include the Super Shotgun; in Doom 1 mode, there can only be one weapon in slot 3, rather than two.

However, this would also require copying many of Doom 2's sprites and some textures to the pwad. Does this cross the line into unacceptable levels of rippage?

Almost definitely.

[Creaphis]

Thanks for the input. I was already uneasy about the thought of the rippage necessary to make it for Doom 1, and the lack of SSG puts the nail in that coffin. I guess making port-specific lumps and another endpic for the higher ports is the most sensible option. I know that, deep down, Essel wants me to map for his pet port, Eternity, but the thought of making this for Boom still appeals to me the most, because:
1. Having access to more features makes the player expect to see them.
2. I don't feel like learning the next generation of technologies yet. I'll leave my comfort zone when I darn well please.
3. Mapping for Boom allows you to create things that cause the player to think "There is no way that that is possible in Boom."

[Vermil]

If SP only, couldn't you replace the player sprites with sprite of the message and then alter their offset?

Since "our hero" is at the end of the Doom2 monster gallery.

Or just have your message only appear in ports that support custom splash screen?

[RjY]

esselfortium said:

Yes, but you wouldn't be able to include the Super Shotgun; in Doom 1 mode, there can only be one weapon in slot 3, rather than two.

Not to mention

  // Do not spawn cool, new monsters if !commercial
  if (gamemode != commercial)
    switch(doomnum)
      {
      case 64:  // Archvile
      case 65:  // Former Human Commando
      case 66:  // Revenant
      case 67:  // Mancubus
      case 68:  // Arachnotron
      case 69:  // Hell Knight
      case 71:  // Pain Elemental
      case 84:  // Wolf SS
      case 88:  // Boss Brain
      case 89:  // Boss Shooter
        return false;
      }

the function of which is fairly obvious.

[esselfortium]

RjY said:

Not to mention

  // Do not spawn cool, new monsters if !commercial
  if (gamemode != commercial)
    switch(doomnum)
      {
      case 64:  // Archvile
      case 65:  // Former Human Commando
      case 66:  // Revenant
      case 67:  // Mancubus
      case 68:  // Arachnotron
      case 69:  // Hell Knight
      case 71:  // Pain Elemental
      case 84:  // Wolf SS
      case 88:  // Boss Brain
      case 89:  // Boss Shooter
        return false;
      }

the function of which is fairly obvious.

This can easily be avoided, though, by changing their spawn numbers in Dehacked.

[myk]

Creaphis said:
3. Mapping for Boom allows you to create things that cause the player to think "There is no way that that is possible in Boom."

If it crashes Boom maybe :p

[kristus]

Creaphis said:

I would want to use some Doom 2 monsters in the wad, and it is possible to use Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 if their ID numbers or thing numbers or something are changed via DeHacked, and this wad would have some DeHackEd work anyway. However, this would also require copying many of Doom 2's sprites and some textures to the pwad. Does this cross the line into unacceptable levels of rippage?

You don't need to use any dehacked to get Doom2 monsters and things in Doom1, all you need is the graphics and sounds.
You CAN get the SSG in there too, but once you deselected it after picking it up. You can't reselect it. Personally, I'd use dehacked and switch out the pistol with the Shotgun, and put the SSG in the regular Shotgun position. Possibly also replacing the Fist or chainsaw with the pistol for good measure.

About the ripping. Hardly anyone cares about that. As you can see from 99% of all projects released for Doom (2). It is illegal. But it's pretty much socially acceptable. And I myself is far too jaded and tired of the whole thing to even care what anyone else does anymore.
Though, the programming side of the whole community is surprisingly different, where everyone takes licenses very seriously. I just wish the art could be granted that same respect.

[Creaphis]

kristus said:

You don't need to use any dehacked to get Doom2 monsters and things in Doom1, all you need is the graphics and sounds.

We tried that a while ago, in some other thread. It didn't work.

kristus said:

About the ripping. Hardly anyone cares about that. As you can see from 99% of all projects released for Doom (2). It is illegal. But it's pretty much socially acceptable. And I myself is far too jaded and tired of the whole thing to even care what anyone else does anymore.
Though, the programming side of the whole community is surprisingly different, where everyone takes licenses very seriously. I just wish the art could be granted that same respect.

I've noticed that you hold yourself to a high standard with resource ripping (and you hold others to a high standard when they're ripping resources from your own projects) so I'm surprised to see that you're somewhat live-and-let-live about ripping aside from those points. That's similar to how I feel about the issue. I don't particularly care when others choose to shuffle resources around, but I'd prefer to do this as little as possible myself. This is partly because I don't want stolen resources to ruin someone else's experience of something I make, but more so because I want to feel that something I've made is legitimately and completely my accomplishment.

[40oz]

Creaphis said:

Thanks for the input. I was already uneasy about the thought of the rippage necessary to make it for Doom 1, and the lack of SSG puts the nail in that coffin.

You might want to use dehacked to create a weapon similar to the super shotgun by replacing a weapon that people don't use much. I fear incessent flaming to say that all weapons have their good points, but I wouldn't feel too ashamed if I played a wad that tossed the chaingun, bfg or the plasma gun in order to have a super shotgun.