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Graf Zahl

ZDoom bug-talk [from PrBoom-Plus thread]

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rpeter said:

True, ZDoom changed too much. It is driven to create new and different content. Getting stuck in ZDoom was the reason I abandoned it. Somehow ZDoomGuy is taller and fatter than DoomGuy. I complained on the ZDoom forums, but I was yelled off. And then I was not able to go through a door on a ZDoom only map I quit.



What do you expect? I have no idea how you could get the impression that ZDoom's player has a different size than Doom's. It's simply not true.

However, since I can't remember (and find) such a post: Please name the map, and position on the map where you suspect something wrong.

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Graf Zahl said:

What do you expect? I have no idea how you could get the impression that ZDoom's player has a different size than Doom's. It's simply not true.


That's what you said about the distance at which the doom guy can punch. Anybody who has actually played other doom engines than zdoom could tell you this.

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Mike.Reiner said:

That's what you said about the distance at which the doom guy can punch. Anybody who has actually played other doom engines than zdoom could tell you this.


The distance is again precisely the same - it's just the original engine's bugs that aren't present. The punch is a hitscan attack so it is obviously affected by the blockmap bug that has been discussed here.

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Graf Zahl said:

What do you expect? I have no idea how you could get the impression that ZDoom's player has a different size than Doom's. It's simply not true.

However, since I can't remember (and find) such a post: Please name the map, and position on the map where you suspect something wrong.


That was ages ago on the old ZDoom forums. Don't remember the wads, once I was not able to pass between two techlamps, there was also a Heretic level, where I could not climb a stair because my head bumped into the ceiling. There was also a ZDoom only episode where I was not able to squeeze through a door. I was not able to verify that bug of course in other engine since ZDoom was the only ZDoom compatible engine.

Pixel by pixel ZDoomGuy may not be bigger than DoomGuy, but something in the collision code made it bigger.

Nowadays I only play Doom and Boom maps. I do keep an eye on your GZDoom because it has a lot of cool solution to sw renderer hacks.

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rpeter said:

That was ages ago on the old ZDoom forums. Don't remember the wads, once I was not able to pass between two techlamps,
[B]


If the space between them is precisely the player's diameter it's always a problem to get through. But since this rarely appears in real maps I haven't been able to test it extensively.

there was also a Heretic level, where I could not climb a stair because my head bumped into the ceiling.


Yes, I know of that problem. AFAIK it is something I fixed in 2.0.96x.

There was also a ZDoom only episode where I was not able to squeeze through a door. I was not able to verify that bug of course in other engine since ZDoom was the only ZDoom compatible engine.


Now, this one's something I'd like to see if it is still present. I assume you don't remember which map it was, do you?

Pixel by pixel ZDoomGuy may not be bigger than DoomGuy, but something in the collision code made it bigger.


Doomguy is temporatily made taller by the clippinh code, but not wider. This is needed to avoid getting stuck with the head in bridge things. Obviously the clipping code must compensate for this to ensure proper behavior but older versions didn't properly.

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Graf Zahl said:

The distance is again precisely the same - it's just the original engine's bugs that aren't present. The punch is a hitscan attack so it is obviously affected by the blockmap bug that has been discussed here.

I don't care if the distance is the same regarding the code, the fact is it does not behave even remotely like it should. The marine doesn't have a 5 foot arm, sorry. I know minor things must change here and there in zdoom because of calculation changes and bug fixes, but this is by no means a minor change, and I find it very difficult to believe that the original designers of doom felt that the melee attack was a very buggy part of the code. ZDoom fixed the blockmap bug, and in doing so another bug was introduced, which obviously randy has no inclination to fix at all, since the thread I was bitching about it in was closed.

Like I said before, you can easily melee revenants, hell knights, barons, pinkies, or imps before they even get a chance to melee you, whereas in other engines it's much, MUCH harder. I don't care if it's a 'bug fix', it's turned any player who thinks he's good at melee in zdoom into a complete pussy compared to somebody who plays on other engines. How the HELL more people have complained about this is beyond me. Do they like playing a game with dumbed down difficulty called 'bug fixes'?

I don't know if your taking me serious enough to actually go try this in another engine or not, but if you did, you're just fooling yourself if your trying to tell me I'm wrong.

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Graf Zahl said:

Now, this one's something I'd like to see if it is still present. I assume you don't remember which map it was, do you?


Nope, sorry that was long time ago, before 2.063.

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Graf Zahl said:

Now, this one's something I'd like to see if it is still present. I assume you don't remember which map it was, do you?


I dunno if this is the same thing, or even related, but last I played ZDoom (and tried this) glides were very nearly impossible. Although, that might not have anything to do with the clipping code or anything related or it might simply be the fact that mouse movement in ZDoom is way different than Vanilla/Chocolate

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Mike.Reiner said:

Like I said before, you can easily melee revenants, hell knights, barons, pinkies, or imps before they even get a chance to melee you, whereas in other engines it's much, MUCH harder.



Yes, it is a bug fix. At least that's what I call it if clearly broken behavior is changed.

In addition to the blockmap code there's another thing that was wrong in Doom. The player's melee attack had a vastly different range depending on where you hit a monster. Doom only checks a hit by testing the 2 diagonals instead of the bounding box. So, if you hit a monster at the center the hit point is not on its outer edge but right in the center which is totally illogical.

ZDoom does the proper thing and checks the bounding box so the melee attack's range is always the same, regardless where you hit a monster.


I don't care if it's a 'bug fix', it's turned any player who thinks he's good at melee in zdoom into a complete pussy compared to somebody who plays on other engines. How the HELL more people have complained about this is beyond me. Do they like playing a game with dumbed down difficulty called 'bug fixes'?


That's because people like you don't use ZDoom, plain and simple. I could revert this and piss off half the regular ZDoomers but you'd quickly jump to the next thing you don't like and we'd be back to square one. Why should I even bother? It's pointless.

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John Smith said:

I dunno if this is the same thing, or even related, but last I played ZDoom (and tried this) glides were very nearly impossible. Although, that might not have anything to do with the clipping code or anything related or it might simply be the fact that mouse movement in ZDoom is way different than Vanilla/Chocolate


Sorry to ask, but what's a 'glide'?

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A so-called glide is when you squeeze through a 32 unit gap, which is not easy without practice.

I've complained about the name "glide" myself, but I think it's how it came up in various demo text files :p

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A more recent oddity in ZDoom 2.2.0 (and GZDoom 1.1.0): Doom Revisited E2M8 invulnerability pickup: colormap is blue in intended port (Boom 2.02) and in recent PrBoom+ as well. In ZDoom the colormap stays the original one.

Not a big one, just odd.

doomrev.zip somewhere in doom1/ports, 1999.

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myk said:

A so-called glide is when you squeeze through a 32 unit gap, which is not easy without practice.

I've complained about the name "glide" myself, but I think it's how it came up in various demo text files :p


Sounds like a math precision thing. Just thinking about the logic behind this should make it clear that is is nearly impossoble to get into such a gap.

From looking at the code I can see why it isn't possible - but I can't find anything that would make it easier to allow it on other ports. It's probably related to one of the countless quirks in the engine.

rpeter said:

Not a big one, just odd.



That's because ZDoom creates the colormap on the fly instead of relying on the one in the WAD. That's because the inverse map is available in all supported games.

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Graf Zahl said:

The distance is again precisely the same - it's just the original engine's bugs that aren't present. The punch is a hitscan attack so it is obviously affected by the blockmap bug that has been discussed here.


The timing seems to be different, though. On Boom, the "punch" occurs slightly sooner after clicking.

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Graf Zahl said:

ZDoom does the proper thing and checks the bounding box so the melee attack's range is always the same, regardless where you hit a monster

And that makes it okay for there to be a side effect of vastly increased melee range, how? I know what your saying about making it 'easier' to hit the enemy when your in range, that makes sense, as it is a legitimate thing to complain about with the original behavior... by why does that make it okay for the range to be so much greater?

Well, whatever, this is obviously something only I ever complain about, so I'm just gonna quit worrying about it, as nothing is going to change.

Graf Zahl said:

That's because people like you don't use ZDoom, plain and simple. I could revert this and piss off half the regular ZDoomers but you'd quickly jump to the next thing you don't like and we'd be back to square one. Why should I even bother? It's pointless.


In all honesty your probably right. I am a bit too conservative when it comes to the gameplay mechanics. But I will say that I would NEVER pass up playing a ZDoom-only wad/map just because of these things.

Though I believe I can complain about one thing that is 100% legitimate to complain about, and it has more to do with GZDoom (maybe the SVN of zdoom it's based on?), latest version I believe.

A wad that Huy and I worked on called Deus Vult II has a chainsaw replacement, the Gauntlets. These are 100% dehacked, and work perfectly in PrBoom+ and ZDoom, but when you try to take those Gauntlets out in GZDoom... crashes.

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Creaphis said:

The timing seems to be different, though. On Boom, the "punch" occurs slightly sooner after clicking.



Hard to tell why. All the engine can do it receive the event, dispatch it and react. But how long it takes to receive the event after it actually occured is entirely controlled by the operating system. Do you mean real Boom or some Windows-based Boom derivatives?

Mike.Reiner said:

And that makes it okay for there to be a side effect of vastly increased melee range, how? I know what your saying about making it 'easier' to hit the enemy when your in range, that makes sense, as it is a legitimate thing to complain about with the original behavior... by why does that make it okay for the range to be so much greater?

Well, whatever, this is obviously something only I ever complain about, so I'm just gonna quit worrying about it, as nothing is going to change.


In all honesty, this was the first time I ever became aware that this increases the melee range. When thinking about how this works it's obvios but this change was made before I started working on ZDoom. For me it always seemed normal. I rarely use melee weapons in Doom so even when using other ports it never crossed my mind. In Hexen, yes - but I never play Hexen with another port so even there I had nothing to compare it with.


A wad that Huy and I worked on called Deus Vult II has a chainsaw replacement, the Gauntlets. These are 100% dehacked, and work perfectly in PrBoom+ and ZDoom, but when you try to take those Gauntlets out in GZDoom... crashes.


Just tried with an EXE I built this afternoon. Works fine.

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Graf Zahl said:

Just tried with an EXE I built this afternoon. Works fine.

Weird. 1.1.02 and 1.1.04 are the only two versions that have this problem. But I suppose if you just barely built it, it's a bit more up to date than 1.1.04.

Graf Zahl said:

In all honesty, this was the first time I ever became aware that this increases the melee range. When thinking about how this works it's obvios but this change was made before I started working on ZDoom. For me it always seemed normal. I rarely use melee weapons in Doom so even when using other ports it never crossed my mind. In Hexen, yes - but I never play Hexen with another port so even there I had nothing to compare it with.

I always played Hexen in vanilla, and, in my opinion, it behaves exactly like zdoom's melee.
So I guess I just feel that the melee I'm using when I'm playing Doom in ZDoom is ripped out of hexen or something.

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Mike.Reiner said:

Weird. 1.1.02 and 1.1.04 are the only two versions that have this problem. But I suppose if you just barely built it, it's a bit more up to date than 1.1.04.


Good to know it's an old bug that has been fixed already.


I always played Hexen in vanilla, and, in my opinion, it behaves exactly like zdoom's melee.
So I guess I just feel that the melee I'm using when I'm playing Doom in ZDoom is ripped out of hexen or something.


Actually not. Hexen's code is precisely the same as Doom's, disregarding the better soource formatting.

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Graf Zahl said:

Actually not. Hexen's code is precisely the same as Doom's, disregarding the better soource formatting.

Well I really don't know what to think of that.

In any case, sorry for sounding like an ass regarding my stance on this.

AH, I just remembered something else I wanted to ask.

What do you think of the Detail textures in GLBoom+? Personally I think they're awesome. I'd like to see something like that in GZDoom.

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Mike.Reiner said:

Weird. 1.1.02 and 1.1.04 are the only two versions that have this problem. But I suppose if you just barely built it, it's a bit more up to date than 1.1.04.


I don't know if you are in a position to compile (G)Zdoom yourself or not, or if you'd even be interested in doing so.

However, if you're interested in trying newer SVN builds, and don't have the facilities to compile your own ones, you can get pre-compiled ones here:

http://svn.drd-team.org/

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Enjay said:

I don't know if you are in a position to compile (G)Zdoom yourself or not, or if you'd even be interested in doing so.

However, if you're interested in trying newer SVN builds, and don't have the facilities to compile your own ones, you can get pre-compiled ones here:

http://svn.drd-team.org/


Unfortunately I am not in any position to be compiling source code.

I have no knowledge on the software necessary, or about programming itself, but I do have some interest in the matter.

I'll try the latest SVN.

Edit: The latest SVN does not have this problem.

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bcs03.zip (Doom 2, 1995): ZDoom sets the player sunken into the floor at the start. A wall is too close?

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Thank god, ZDoom fixed the terrible melee code. It was fucking stupid to stand, touching a mancubus, and being completely unable to punch it.

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rpeter said:

bcs03.zip (Doom 2, 1995): ZDoom sets the player sunken into the floor at the start. A wall is too close?



Can be a node bug. Older versions of BSP built slightly incorrect nodes that, thanks to a bug in original Doom went mostly unnoticed. The code in question is different in ZDoom so it will be affected by the buggy nodes.
Try playing the map with 'gennodes 1'.

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