Atheism kills man

[AndrewB]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81459

[Texas Libra]

Am I really supposed to feel sorry for that kid?

[kristus]

It's certainly an interesting story. Usually people who are this grounded in their religious delusion won't accept the evidence and respond by calling it all lies.

[Technician]

Evilution takes another black eye from stupid evangelicals. This shit always pisses me off.

[kristus]

This is really more about religion and whatever life he had, than anything else.

[Gez]

Discover how atheism and immorality are being cleverly sold to Americans in David Kupelian's controversial best seller, "The Marketing of Evil."

Okay, and you want me to take the rest of the article seriously, now?

"He was pretty much an atheist, with no belief in the existence of God (in any form) or an afterlife or even in the concept of right or wrong," the relative wrote. "I remember him telling me that he thought that murder wasn't wrong per se, but he would never do it because of the social consequences - that was all there was - just social consequences.

Eww. I'll be an insensitive asshole, but it's good he took out his own life -- rather than someone else's. The kind of people who need a God to have an ethical and moral outlook creep me out. When their faith wavers, they can snap and become criminal just because "it isn't wrong per se" so as long as they think they can avoid the social consequences, it's alright...

[kristus]

Well, that's something a lot religious people claim. W/o god, there's no reason for us not to kill off each other, in their mind. But it's just something they do like with everything else. Skew it to make it sound like Go is the only logical reason for us to even get up in the morning.

[GreyGhost]

More unbiased reporting from World Net Daily-

Soy is making kids 'gay'

Obama Watch Central - Petition to see the birth certificate

Are feds stockpiling survival foods?

You cannot be a christian and vote for Obama

[Butts]

Usually people who are this grounded in their religious delusion won't accept the evidence and respond by calling it all lies.

what evidence? what delusion? is there something wrong with people that have religious beliefs? if it keeps people happy, then whats the big fucking deal?


back to the story: the kid was weak minded.

[fraggle]

kristus said:

This is really more about religion and whatever life he had, than anything else.

From reading the article, it seems that he was at least incredibly confused about his beliefs. Apparently he was both a fundamentalist Christian and an atheist at the same time, or at least had gone from one extreme to the other in a short space of time.

The problem is that religion indoctrinates people into beliefs at a young age, before they have developed the critical thinking skills that they need to properly analyse and think about what they're being taught. Children just accept what they're taught is true, and that shapes what they come to believe as adults.

Clearly this man had an interest in these kind of existential questions, but there was a gulf between what he was raised to believe was true, and what he had come to believe was true as a result of his own study and critical thinking. It's not surprising that certain people might have an incredibly negative reaction to what is, effectively, the collapse of their entire belief system.

[Manc]

GreyGhost said:

More unbiased reporting from World Net Daily-

Soy is making kids 'gay'

Beware the estrogens!

[40oz]

That was a really rotten thing for the proffessor to do. The same way Christians shouldn't go around trying to convince other people to beleive in god, atheists shouldn't be trying to get strong christians to be atheists.

[Enjay]

Would it be inappropriate to nominate this kid for a Darwin award? ;)

[SYS]

OH SHIT THERE'S NO GOD!

/AN HERO

[fraggle]

JohnnyRancid said:

That was a really rotten thing for the proffessor to do. The same way Christians shouldn't go around trying to convince other people to beleive in god, atheists shouldn't be trying to get strong christians to be atheists.

We don't know the circumstances behind what happened; it's quite possible that the exact opposite happened. What happened exactly that lead to the professor challenging him to read the book? From the article we know that he was a fundamentalist Christian with a belief in Intelligent Design, and he decided to take a biology class. It's quite possible that it was actually him who decided to challenge the professor during a class and and start talking about Jesus and ID.

This is complete speculation, of course, but I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that the professor just decided to start criticising the religious beliefs of one of his students for no reason.

I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable for a professor to question the religious beliefs of one of his students. If you're in a debating Evolution vs. Intelligent Design and the ID proponent's line of reasoning basically boils down to "the Bible says it's true", where do you go from there?

[Coopersville]

It must suck being so grounded in religion that once some opposition starts flinging your way, and you start to realize that you're responsible for your own actions, you wig out and off yourself.

I can sort of agree that it was crude of that professor to challange someone like that to read The God Delusion, but then again, that's what you should expect when entering a place of legitimate higher learning.

[Espi]

"Here's another thing," he continued. "If my son was a professing homosexual, and a professor challenged him to read [a book called] 'Preventing Homosexuality'… If my son was gay and [the book] made him feel bad, hopeless, and he killed himself, and that came out in the press, there would be an outcry.

"He would have been a victim of a hate crime and the professor would have been forced to undergo sensitivity training, and there may have even been a wrongful death lawsuit.

"But because he's a Christian, I don't even get a return telephone call," the father told WND.

What the fuck?

They have just (re)banned gay marriage in california, partly (if not mostly) due to christian influence, and this fucking twat thinks christians have it soo tough?

This is only getting any attention because it shows atheism in a bad light. But in the end, the book is not responsible for his suicide, he is himself.

It seems there isn't any evidence for any professor challenging him to read the book or anything either. And even if he was recommended/challenged to read it, how the fuck could anyone expect that he'd go and kill himself?

This is just so stupid. I feel bad for the guy, mostly for having this stupid cunt for a dad.

[Sharessa]

kristus said:

Well, that's something a lot religious people claim. W/o god, there's no reason for us not to kill off each other, in their mind. But it's just something they do like with everything else. Skew it to make it sound like Go is the only logical reason for us to even get up in the morning.

That reminds me of this time in my high school psychology class. My teacher was an atheist and he asked everyone in the class what their beliefs were. I was the only one who said I was an atheist (because I was at the time). Another student asked me "then what prevents you from killing other people?" and my response was "well I wouldn't do anything that I wouldn't want other people doing to me". The only reply to that was thoughtful silence. Heh. That really made me wonder if some people really do need religion just to keep them from being total bastards, or if that's just an excuse.

[kristus]

fraggle said:

We don't know the circumstances behind what happened; it's quite possible that the exact opposite happened.

The kid also was a boaster of his christ blogging, and an avid debater.

Hardly surprising if he started to shoot his mouth about God, and then got shot down with arguments from an educated professional.

[magicsofa]

I feel bad for the kid and the professor who might have suggested the book. If the prof did indeed suggest he read this book, he probably feels terrible and doesn't want to admit it.

As for the kid - realize that he was 22 years old. It's true that great inner conflict can result from accepting one thing as a child and then later in life being challenged on that. However, it said he was on the debate team in fifth grade. Obviously this kid wasn't just like "mommy said god is real." He had probably been challenged over and over by atheists and whoever else, especially at this college that's apparently very non-christian.

I feel bad for him because he apparently wanted to see everything in black and white. It seems that he was probably very stubborn and calculated about his beliefs - I'm sure he would argue for his side in rigid terms. The fact is that nobody can prove OR DISPROVE the existence of a god, assuming the possibility that said god is damn good at hiding from us. I don't care what the fucking book says about delusional faith - people of faith are supposed to know what faith is, which is a belief without reason. Therefore, no logical argument can debunk faith. I think this kid was probably trying to believe in god based on facts and reasoning rather than faith, in which case his beliefs would not be hard to shoot down.

The really sad thing is that this kid could not re-discover his spirituality. He couldn't accept that God might be different than what he was taught as a kid. I wonder if he committed suicide as a test. Maybe he looked at all the information and said, okay, all signs point to no god. There's only one thing to drive the nail home - death. If I kill myself, I will see whether God exists because I will be sent to heaven or hell. What gets me is that my image of god doesn't include heaven and hell - I believe when you die, it is simply a change in your physical being. I think this kid has now become a bunch of dead cells, which will be consumed by the Earth. It's just too bad he couldn't see that as divine.

Perhaps this should be a warning to people of faith. A little skepticism, a little pessimism, a little cynicism can go a long way in protecting yourself from total melt-downs such as this. I don't mind when people believe in the christian God but when they're so super faithful that it seems dangerous, as in this case, it kinda sucks. It's like dating. If you start to get intimate with someone, but you realize that it may not last forever, breaking up is not going to feel like the end of the world. It's the people who put this unrealistic faith in their partner and start to believe they're going to get married that end up being really devastated when shit doesn't work out.

I guess I feel bad for the father as well. He seems helpless, and he's just taking his anger out on other people, trying to blame the school system and the author of the book. But, dude, you apparently didn't prepare your son for the real world, and this is what can happen.

[Enjay]

This "then what prevents you from killing other people" argument/question is something that I have seen surfacing a few times recently. It is common enough that some quarters must be using the basic idea as part of an argument for the importance of a god to society. However, to me it shows, at best, a lack of basic understanding of human beings* or, at worst, it is a deliberate attempt to manipulate people who may listen to, and accept the argument.

*but so much more than that - there are 1001 different reasons not to kill someone over and above the one that God is against it.

I mean, imagine what kind of person you must be to genuinely sit there and think to yourself "I just don't understand why you lot aren't killing each other seeing as how none of you believe in God. I'd have expected you to be offing each other at every opportunity."

And let's not forget how many people have been killed in the name of one god or another.

[Gez]

Meanwhile, in the afterlife, "JKrapture" discovers that he was right all along -- things really are like it's said in the Bible -- and now he's burning in Hell for all eternity. Yes, suicide is a cardinal sin (anger).

[Enjay]

Having now read a number of WND articles, and researched WND through a variety of sources, I can only conclude the following about this "news" outlet:

It is utter toss and the chances of finding anything reliable or unbiased in anything they report are so slim that, IMO, the safest bet is to assume any of their articles are utterly worthless unless proven otherwise by independent sources.

[Richo Rosai]

If I'd realized my atheism at 22 I might have killed myself too, with the the inescapable nihilistic implications that came with it for me. Luckily I was young enough to have time for it to sink in.

[alexz721]

Danarchy said:

That reminds me of this time in my high school psychology class. My teacher was an atheist and he asked everyone in the class what their beliefs were. I was the only one who said I was an atheist (because I was at the time). Another student asked me "then what prevents you from killing other people?" and my response was "well I wouldn't do anything that I wouldn't want other people doing to me". The only reply to that was thoughtful silence. Heh. That really made me wonder if some people really do need religion just to keep them from being total bastards, or if that's just an excuse.

More of a logical standpoint than a moral one though.

[kristus]

alexz721 said:

More of a logical standpoint than a moral one though.

Well, that was some seriuous bullshit if I ever heard it. If knowing what is wrong and right w/o the aid of a 2000 year old book where wrong and right is dubious at best isn't moral. Then really, I don't need moral.

[Creaphis]

I do feel sorry for the kid.

It makes me sad that he had to kill himself when he was so close to a new understanding. If he could have weathered this storm, he could have found peace and meaning in a godless world.

If he could have had an atheist friend in his restricted world, he may have had someone to talk to with something helpful to say.

However, I feel less sorry for his dad, as his attitude and the environment he fostered is what killed his boy.

He said he has a wake-up call over the anti-Christian agenda of public education.

Uhh... reality has an anti-Christian agenda. And the sooner that your kids realize this, the better.

[Prince of Darkness]

Enjay said:

Would it be inappropriate to nominate this kid for a Darwin award? ;)

I don't think /b would mind...

[GreyGhost]

Danarchy said:

Another student asked me "then what prevents you from killing other people?" and my response was "well I wouldn't do anything that I wouldn't want other people doing to me".

Social animals rarely kill each other outside of the mating season or the occasional territorial dispute between groups. That inhibition is probably hard-wired as a survival mechanism from when our ancestors were prey and found safety in numbers. As our brains evolved and our priorities changed those survival mechanisms have been formalised as codes of conduct in order to prevent our ponderous over-complex social structures from imploding - maybe we've become to smart for our own good. While religion has played a role in shaping human behaviour it's usually done so by rubber-stamping and reinforcing existing codes of conduct.

[Shaikoten]

I would say that this is more the cause of him being indoctrinated into a very strict lifestyle from birth than anything else. His family was Evangelical, which if you hadn't noticed is pretty intolerant of basically everything non-evangelical. When you're brought up with a teaching that everyone else is wrong about everything, that's drilled into you for 20+ years, and then you see a convincing argument to the contrary of what you've been taught, that's pretty devastating. Think of how you atheists would feel if suddenly some real god finally popped up and was pissed at you.

But I think the real failing of the upbringing is raising a kid to act on behalf of god, rather than for his own good in society. If you base the kid's upbringing on his interaction with his fellow man, and gaining as much joy from that as God, I'm sure he'd end up a perfectly normal human being without a hole in his head, no matter belief he ultimately chose. Instead this kid was most likely taught that his every action was to be for god, not for himself or family, or even country. When the only permanent thing in your life is taken away it's pretty easy to see something like that happen.

Anyways, just chatter from the agnostic corner. It's depressing, but religious fanaticism is cyclical. This guy got it from his parents, and had he not gotten a real education he probably would have given it to his own kids. It's hard to say anyone's really "at fault" here, though.