Atheism kills man

[kristus]

I think it is quite spot on as it captures his stance on religion.

[fraggle]

Danarchy said:

TBQH, the only real beef I have with Dawkins is that he named his book "The God Delusion". That's pretty blatant trolling right there, probably just to get more book sales. It probably did more to bring ire at atheists from Christians than to get more people interested in atheism. Not sure exactly what the content of the book is, but yeah...he turned me off with the first impression.

I haven't read the book myself, but I've read enough about it to have a fair understanding of what it contains. Dawkins basically argues that religion is a delusion, so the title is a pretty good summary of the book. From an atheist perspective it isn't such a shocking thing to say; what other reasonable explanation can be given?

I guess it's potentially offensive to some hardcore religious believers, but if you're likely to be offended by that title, you're probably sufficiently indoctrinated that the contents won't convince you anyway. Dawkins has made it pretty clear that he's hoping to reach out to people who are "in the middle" and provide a convincing argument for the atheist stance to them; ie. people that are nominal believers without a strong belief, and people who are "on the fence", who don't follow a religion but aren't really decided either way.

I must admit that I find the concept of hating Richard Dawkins rather odd, as all of the times that I've seen videos of him he seems like a fairly calm and reserved man. Obviously he has strong opinions but he doesn't come across as a bigot or an extremist, and it certainly doesn't seem fair at all to compare him to fire and brimstone religious preachers, and suchlike.

Incidentally, I watched Go God Go yesterday and it was hilarious :-)

[geekmarine]

To me, the title makes sense even if you are religious. There are many religions out there in the world, and at the absolute most, only one can be right. Therefore, even if there is a God, most religious people are completely delusional because they worship the wrong one. Furthermore, with so many religions in the world, you'd have to be delusional to just assume that you happened to be born into the right one.

Sorry, just something that's always bothered me - even if God exists, it still means that most religious people are barking mad.

[Creaphis]

geekmarine said:

Sorry, just something that's always bothered me - even if God exists, it still means that most religious people are barking mad.

Well, some more liberal religious people may quote the line, "Even though we're all on different ships, we're heading to the same port."

[Sharessa]

geekmarine said:

To me, the title makes sense even if you are religious. There are many religions out there in the world, and at the absolute most, only one can be right. Therefore, even if there is a God, most religious people are completely delusional because they worship the wrong one. Furthermore, with so many religions in the world, you'd have to be delusional to just assume that you happened to be born into the right one.

The thing about the word "delusion" though, is that it implies insanity. However, belief is what keeps most people sane from what I've learned.

[kristus]

"Delusion" does not imply insanity.

[geekmarine]

Delusion simply refers to the fact that the belief is irrational, which it is even if there is a God, because you can't know which religion is right, and most of the religious people in the world will still be wrong. I mean, let's assume Christianity is the correct religion - that means that every single religious person on this planet who is not a Christian is, in fact, worshiping a made-up God or Gods. What are we supposed to make of that?

[Butts]

people shoving religion upon others i think is wrong, but the belief in a supernatural being is certainly not irrational. it is just human nature.

[kristus]

Just because it's human nature, doesn't mean it's not irrational.

[Butts]

true, but belief in a supernatural being is not necessarily irrational. matter, physics, energy, etc. just appearing out of nowhere with no known cause is just the same level of irrationality.

[Gez]

Butts said:

people shoving religion upon others i think is wrong, but the belief in a supernatural being is certainly not irrational. it is just human nature.

Belief in the supernatural is irrational by definition.
Just because something is in human nature doesn't mean it's rational.
And likewise, just because something is irrational doesn't mean it's bad.

Butts said:

true, but belief in a supernatural being is not necessarily irrational. matter, physics, energy, etc. just appearing out of nowhere with no known cause is just the same level of irrationality.

And that's certainly not what the modern theories say about the origin of the universe. The universe is self-contained.

[Butts]

can i have a link to the modern theory you are speaking of? im really not certain of what you are talking about and id like to learn about it.

[geekmarine]

I would say it's not necessarily irrational to think that there may be something out there - but we don't know where the universe came from and we really have no evidence, so when you start talking specifics, I'd say that's heading toward irrational. Idle speculation is one thing - but we're talking about making definitive conclusions here about things that no person can possibly know.

[Butts]

yeah what geekmarine said.

[Gez]

Butts said:

can i have a link to the modern theory you are speaking of? im really not certain of what you are talking about and id like to learn about it.

The best link I can give you is this lecture by Stephen Hawking. It's in five parts, just follow the "video responses" links.

It should help you understand why the universe didn't "appear out of nowhere."

[Creaphis]

Gez said:

The best link I can give you is this lecture by Stephen Hawking. It's in five parts, just follow the "video responses" links.

Heh, I've seen that before. It left me with the impression that Hawking is like an old rock star - he tours around, and people come in droves to see him despite the fact that he has no new material to show. But, if you're new to the subject it's a good introduction. You'll have plenty of time to absorb each thing he says.

[Gez]

Creaphis said:

But, if you're new to the subject it's a good introduction. You'll have plenty of time to absorb each thing he says.

Exactly the reason why I linked to it. :)

And yeah, it's been referenced to many times. I think one of the times I've seen it linked to was even here.

[fraggle]

Danarchy said:

The thing about the word "delusion" though, is that it implies insanity. However, belief is what keeps most people sane from what I've learned.

Delusion does not imply insanity; normal sane people believe in all kinds of delusions. Old wives tales, for example, are examples of delusions. For more examples you just need to look at the history of science. There was no distinction between chemistry and alchemy, or between astronomy and astrology. The Theory of the Four Humors dominated medicine for 2000 years even though it didn't work. The people practicing these things weren't insane; they were laboring under delusions. We now have a process of science that deliberately attempts to avoid these types of delusion by ensuring that scientific theories are grounded in evidence before they are accepted.

Butts said:

people shoving religion upon others i think is wrong, but the belief in a supernatural being is certainly not irrational. it is just human nature.

It should be abundantly clear by now that human nature is irrational. We aren't computers and we don't think logically. Emotion, peer pressure, confirmation bias, the "Just world" phenomenon, all of these and more affect our decision making processes. Logic and rational thinking play only a small part of most peoples' decision making processes. Probably the best argument against intelligent design is that our brains don't work very well :-)

You might argue that it's human nature to believe in supernatural beings; in a sense I'd agree in that it's human nature to fall victim to delusions. I don't think it's human nature to believe in supernatural beings as such. Even if it is human nature to believe in supernatural beings, it still doesn't make that belief a rational one.

[Butts]

guess i was somewhat familiar with it. hawking is a genius, love to hear what he says.

anyways, im convinced, but i was stating that the whole "how" concept was natural, as humans are curious, and i kind of just changed the concept about it around. i guess if i thought about it in a sense scientifically, using the scientific method, etc. then it really doesnt make sense and does make it irrational. i probably didnt make much sense in this post i hope its clear enough though.

[geekmarine]

Hey, wait now - our brains may not be perfect, but they're well-suited for what they do. Sure, they take short-cuts, and that sometimes leads to irrational thinking, but ultimately, those short-cuts are necessary for our survival. I mean, if you think that a lion may be chasing you, it's best to assume it is and run, because the consequences of being wrong are far less severe than the consequences of not running and being wrong.

Sorry, I majored in psychology, so I have an appreciation for the brain's little foibles.

[GreyGhost]

Butts said:

people shoving religion upon others i think is wrong, but the belief in a supernatural being is certainly not irrational. it is just human nature.

Belief in supernatural being's probably originated with our hunter-gatherer ancestors who - like ourselves - were intelligent, inquisitive and imaginative. Unfortunately their lifestyle is one that doesn't provide much free time for the detailed study and analysis of phenomena that don't relate to finding food or shelter so many of their answers to life's mysterys will be somewhat ad-hoc. Attributing natural phenomena to a super-being makes sense since it leads to the possibilty of being able to avert or inflence events one has no control over by placating the deity-in-charge - better than feeling totally helpless.

[Creaphis]

I imagine that the belief in deities developed in ancient societies because, ironically, it's the easiest thing to imagine. The simplest way that the primitive human brain could answer the question, "Where did the world come from?" is "Somebody made it." I say "ironically" because the scientific approach has shown that the easiest way to answer the question is actually an absurdly complex theory. I'm often struck by the contrast between the religious use of "God" as an easy way to answer questions, and the scientific realization that the "God" concept is complex beyond any chance of accuracy.

[SulfurOccult]

fraggle said:

The Theory of the Four Humors

I feel its worth pointing out that while the theory was wrong, there was some overarching principles in such antiquated methods that persist as truth in the modern paradigm. in the case of the Four Humors, they were utterly wrong in their beliefs that four simple substances controlled human health - but the spirit of the idea was that the human body is an organism in balance. they knew that when the body's (at that time) mysterious inner workings were not functioning in a healthy balance the person would become ill - but they irrationally found explanations for this by creating the theory of the four humors.

I point this out to say that the seeds of truth also grow irrational delusions as well as more rational scientific theories.

[myk]

Belial said:
I think saying Dawkins is similar to the religious nuts, only with an opposite view is fairly delusional in its own right.

I'm not convinced. One could say he represents to religion what PETA is to animal treatment. His ideas tend toward populism, his activism works mostly on those who are already tending towards atheism or already embracing it, and the triviality of his arguments also gives those who want to be religious incentives.

Rationalizing against religion is like arguing with morons.

[Mindless Rambler]

myk said:

One could say he represents to religion what PETA is to animal treatment.

...except (as far as my knowledge stretches) he isn't killing atheists and funding church bombings.

[Butts]

or making lame flash games that show how bad christians are.

[magicsofa]

There was nothing, but nothing can't exist, so there was something.

[SulfurOccult]

that something was heavy metal - YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAH!

[pritch]

Technician said:

Evilution takes another black eye from stupid evangelicals. This shit always pisses me off.

Was that spelling intentional? If not that's hilarious.

[Creaphis]

I don't care if it's not the best. Team TNT made a good megawad. Why can't evangelical Christians just accept this?