New map ready for playtesting: Plateau Sigma (final update)

[bullsquid]

I just finished a new map for you to playtest and i need comments and bugchecking before i release it to idgames.
Too easy? Too hard? Too much/ too little ammo/health etc.


http://www.sendspace.com/file/5ugsbo *updated

[Grazza]

Invalid tags: linedefs 349, 896, 1242, 1243, 1244 and 1571 (found using WadAuthor's error checking).

In each case, you need to give the linedef a tag number and give the same tag number to the sector to which the action should be applied.

Otherwise your map will disintegrate (or the lift/floor will simply fail to operate) with any exe that doesn't use the Zdoom handling of erroneous missing tags.

[bullsquid]

I dont quite understand what i should do here.
When i gave the lift in the outdoor area a tag number and the same tag to the area the lift is in, then it dosent work at all.
Only thing that happens when i press the lift is that the floor lowers slightly...whats wrong?

I need other comments on gameplay item/monster placement too please.

[hawkwind]

I have commented to you about this before.

RH and ZDoom have a lot to answer for. Unfortunately,as a result, ports like Risen3D - pics shown here - and (GL)prboom+ have followed suit for compatibility. Since you are using R3D you are not realising there actually are map errors.

To fix errors mentioned ...

First, using line 349 as an example.

You gave line 349 Action 102, which is a Switch action. Switches REQUIRE a tag for the activating line AND the sector to be activated, in this case sector 77. Since you have already given sector 77 tag #3 , give line 349 tag #3 also.

Also ...

Now linedef 896 is neither tagged nor is its intended sector tagged. So give both line 896 and sector 157 tag #20, since it is the next unused.

You should now be able to work out the rest.

Remember, ONLY DR ( Door Repeatable ) and D1 ( Door Once ) DO NOT tag either the line or the sector.

......... I hope I have explained it well enough ....

It might be worth checking your other wads for this as well.


UPDATE ...

Played the wad.

Gameplay and ammo/health distribution seem OK.

Things noticed.

1. Torches at sectors 86, 87 etc not flagged easy hence do not show up on easy level.

2. You rely on dynamic lighting too much for sector lighting effects. Maybe give sectors that have torches the flicker effect, like sector effect 1 ?

3. Line 114 needs an X alignment.

[bullsquid]

Ok i think i've fixed it now. Its true i've not realised this until now since all my maps works fine in risen 3d and zdoom.

Can you please tell me what else i need to fix?

And wouldn't it look very odd for a torch to light flicker randomly?

I uploaded a fixed version now please tell me if there's something i forgot

changes:

* removed 3d mode start

* added cyberdemon to the cave room on hard skill

* made an extension to the roof in the cave area so the cyberdemon cant follow you trough the door.

* made the other side of the red key door able to open for monsters since u could just wait for the door to close and the monsters would stay inside.

* removed some ammo and replaced some medkits with stimpacks since u had too much health/ammo compared to monsters.

* added more hell knights in the final area

* replaced shotgun guys with chaingunners

* removed some monsters for easy skill that teleports in at the red key area

* fixed some deaf monster tags

* fixed lift misalignment

[Deeforce]

Hi, I played it on skill 1 and I think it is too hard for this easy skill. I played without cheats until the first arch vile arrives with other enemies in the red key area. After it I died, try to fix that :-P ... at least for skill 1 and 2!

EDIT: I used ZDoom. With Risen3d and the 3d models it should be easier, but concentrate on playing the map in zdoom as well!

[bullsquid]

Ok the map is supposed to be difficult and preferebly to the played on UV since i make all maps for UV skill then remove monster for easy and normal skill but what changes do u suggest i should make?
remove arch-vile on easy skill?
That would not work very well since u need to shoot the arch-vile for the other monster to be teleporting in, that part is supposed to be hard, u should try saving often.
You should die at least once othervise the map would be too easy :P


And i use zdoom for playtesting sometimes.

[Deeforce]

bullsquid said:

what changes do u suggest i should make?

Add a soul sphere :-P... by the way: I rarely would reduce the amount of enemies for lower skills, but add more health or spheres into the game, so that the people, who play on lower skills experience the same action.

[bullsquid]

There is already a soul sphere before the red key area but it is contained in a secret.

The monster count is already very low on easy compared to hard.
And if u find all secrets the map would be alot easier.

I need more feedback on detail, ammo/health monster placement etc.

I dont want to release it to idgames archive before im completly sadisfied with it and all errors and stuff have been fixed. I released my other maps too early and most had some flaws and stuff that needed to be fixed left in them.

[hawkwind]

Much better. The only other thing I can see is that sector 101 isn't completely on a 64x64 grid, cutting off some of the flat, step1.

[bullsquid]

Fixed. i also removed the switch to lower the lift again so u cant escape the monsters too easily.
Play it again and see if its better this way or if i should put it back.

[hawkwind]

bullsquid said:

Fixed. i also removed the switch to lower the lift again so u cant escape the monsters too easily.
Play it again and see if its better this way or if i should put it back.

Either way is fine IMO. Of course, removing the switch makes it more of a challenge, since the player cannot backtrack to retreat, yet there are ample medikits in this area - 4 - for the player to use.

[bullsquid]

yep and i figured since its already 2 very useful secrets nearby u shouldn't have too much problem.

Do some more playtesting plz so i know its ready to upload.

[bullsquid]

The map has now gone trough some major changes so i would need some more playtesting before its released to the archive.
please just take a few minutes and play trough it and comment on health/ammo setup

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kwu79t

new changes:

* reworked yellow key area. the outer part is now closed before hitting the switch

* moved cell charges to revenant pillars and make them lower when hitting switch

* the demon faces on each side of the yellow key now contains revenants, doors open when hitting switch

* removed, replaced some ammo

* some texture changes around the start area

* removed one pillar in the red key area, also removed the switch that lowers the lift again

[hawkwind]

The health/ammo balance seems ok, although I did not have enough to kill the cyber at sector 176, which meant, for me at least, that I did not have enough health/ammo for sector 253. Maybe I could have played UV differently though.

I noticed that you need to remove the Y alignment for line 855.

I think it might be a good idea to make sector 245 and either sector 33, 35 etc. a lift sector. Nothing worse than falling into a damaging sector with no way out. Although I realise that may be a personal preference on the authors part.

[gggmork]

That was fun. Probably doesn't matter because I guess you intended for a different port, but in prboomplus with no mouselook, the 2 eye switches are only shootable with a super shotgun (because they're higher than normal gunfire). Similarly in that port hanging items are infinitely tall thus blocking the 2 stimpacks. The yellow key doesn't seem to serve a purpose unless for some secret I missed or something. If you want, you can avoid the warpers by not firing in the vile area (but that's a common exploit in many maps).

[hawkwind]

gggmork said:

prboomplus with no mouselook, the 2 eye switches are only shootable with a super shotgun (because they're higher than normal gunfire).

Wrong. If the player places themselves at either sector 57 or 164, the player can use the pistol.

gggmork said:

Similarly in that port hanging items are infinitely tall thus blocking the 2 stimpacks.

Yes. The hanging items in question are the ones near vertices 89 and 86. A simple fix for this would be to change the sprite DoomED numbers from 50 to 59.

gggmork said:

The yellow key doesn't seem to serve a purpose

Good find.

[bullsquid]

Oh god i cant believe i missed the yellow key.
How embarrising that would have been if i've released the map.

This totally sliped my mind.

This is why i want as much playtesting as possible, this is such a major error and i didn't even notice it.

* added a yellow door
* fixed hanging items not be able to block
* fixed switches to lower the floor in the lava area next to the final lift

if u find more issues plz tell me. this map is so close to release and i dont wanna screw up making stupid mistakes.

map will be updated soon

[Hellbent]

I want to give comments even though I'm still in the middle of playing the map. First off I like it so far. I think it's cool how you have to be quick in getting the chainsaw and then quickly duck back into the hallway before getting stuck by the demons.

I think it might be a little tedious to battle 3 barons of hell with an SSG though. The same might be said for the 4 mancubi. I liked how you go up to the top where the hell knights are. But when I got there I was like.. where is my rocket launcher? I didn't find one :( and could really have used one there! This is fun battle though with the ssg and chaingun. A good challenge. Maybe instead of only having shotgun ammo provided in boxes, you could have some 4 shotgun shells as well strewn about. Maybe a couple on the elevated hell knight things at the beginning of the level.

Maybe instead of having all the health locked up in secrets you could put other things in them instead such as blue armor, a rocket launcher and backpack (instead of backpack being a freebee) and have a little more health outside of secrets. Personally I don't mind health being in secrets, but I know many people don't like that a map requires the finding of secrets to make it much more possible to beat.

It's kinda odd to get the chaingun after killing a bunch of chaingunners, but it's the same thing on map03 of Doom II.

health potions in front of stimpack means I waste them :(.

I like the layout, detail, and textures you use. I think it has good gameplay. One other critique I might give is that the battles could maybe be more dynamic to be more challenging. Instead of putting in lots of tough monsters, figure out ways to make more challenging gameplay without so many monsters by being creative with map layout and monster placement. I'm gonna go play the map some more and will be back with more comments.

I like the soul sphere secret. As far as flickering torches--if you make the light level change small when they flicker it will look good. Just don't make it a big light change between the flickers. Torches do flicker.

When mapping, try not to give weapons and other things that the player will need right before he'll need them. For example, the plasma gun. one way to get around that problem is not having such a linear layout (although I like the layout). Maybe have another room for the plasma gun--and some kind of challenge to get it--so it's not so obviously put there for the big battle you're about to engage in.

I can't decide if the "pillar traps" in that archvile fight room are clever or mean. Maybe they're both.

Plasma ammo in archvile fight room slightly excessive since we already picked up a decent amount in two backpacks and other cells before coming to that room. I like the blue armor secret. I'd also ask that the teleport not land right in front of the red door after getting the red key. Maybe make a little raised platform (like the one that has no purpose on E3M3 of Doom I) that makes you wonder what that platform is for instead of just teleporting into the room without a teleport landing. And if you don't want the player to hunt for the red door, just make the landing nearby but not right in front of it. Like maybe around a corner somewhere.

About the blur sphere secret. Since soul spheres are useless against mancubi (if anything they make mancubi MORE powerful, really). Have some chaingunners in the red door room for savvy players who save the blur sphere for that room. i thought the rocket launcher lowering to reveal the cyberdemon was a very nice touch.

Even though your level is made up of lots of hallways the gameplay is quite fun. I liked the cyber battle--had a few close calls but managed with only a few scratches. I think you are giving out too much ammo overall. I kinda like the wolf door but the wolf walls are maybe a bit too excessive with use of wolf textures.

Keycard among jungle setting (vines on Gstone) and big monsters seems odd... should be skull key. I like how you can see everything come down when you hit the switch to get the yellow key.

Yikes on that teleport!! Should have had my plasma gun ready. didn't have tiem to evade the archvile and got snookered by the cacos and fell into the mire....

The systematic placing of ammo is a bit much... have them in a corner occasionally but in the corner of every big fight room is a bit much... find more creative places to put boxes of ammo.

the last area is a bit bland... maybe have some veins of streams crossing the twisting hallway and/or have some lights set into the walls giving some dynamic lighting. maybe some small ledges with impaled dudes on them or something. Put something behind the exit chamber.

I like how the passageway to the exit is near the entrance of the level. But again, it'd be much better to discover the opening from some other place in the map rather than being right in front of it not having any idea that that's where the opening is unless you back up.... Overall good map. I hope you like some of my suggestions. I think the most important one would be change where the teleport landings are... maybe make two separate ledges that you see early on in the level.... I'd put them in or near the room where the blur sphere and three stimpack secrets are. After finishing the level I don't think the overall ammo was too excessive--maybe not so many boxes of bullets (or less plasma.)

I never used the blur sphere because it had no use against the monsters it was near. The decorative ledge in the room where you battle 5 mancubi can be jumped to, but it doesn't come down. Maybe it should come down revealing a secret. BTW, I played this on Zdoom. Look forward to your feedback. If you have any questions about my line of reasoning or anything I said, please let me know!

Unless there already is one and I didn't find it, make a secret in the very beginning of the map with like 15-25 armor helmets (maybe in two concentric squares with like a shotgun on a raised 64x64 thing in the middle)

or how about this... make one of those torches a different color (on the ledge where you come out on top to battle the hell knights on the raised ledge at the beginning of the level (off of Linedef 446, when you press on it a secret passage is revealed doubling as protection and ambush for the demons as well as the room with the shotgun and armor helmets in it (although make the room long to match the area it's attached to.)

you may want to make linedef 73 have a block enemy flag so that the mancubi are less inclined to go down the stairs (without blocking the chaingunners) the mancubi look silly walking down the stairs.

If you make the teleport ledge I recommended, you can put something on the ledge. Right behind the teleport landing (so the player is facing away from the item) you can put a box of rockets or some cells or health or whatever and so they have to walk backward to pick it up after they teleport in.
Also, maybe make a secret teleport come down somehow in the last area of the room letting you get back up into the rest of the map again since there's no way out (I wanted to go back and find the one secret id didn't find.)

Also, you may want to check your secret flags if they are implemented where necessary. (I personally would make linedef 1343 have the secret flag for instance.)

[hawkwind]

bullsquid said:

fixed switches to lower the floor in the lava area next to the final lift

Did you do the same for the lava area at sector 4 ?

Hellbent said:

when I got there I was like.. where is my rocket launcher? I didn't find one :(

There is a RL in the map ... keep playing :)

[bullsquid]

[Hellbent]

Yeah, I meant thin vein like streams crossing over the corridors after you take the long lift down.

I'd put a rocket launcher instead of the blur sphere there as it makes killing 3 barons less tedious (and also nice to counter the cannon blasts of the mancubi with rockets)

I actually edited your map extensively (including putting the RL where the blur is). I realize that's a faux pax but I was quite inspired by your map. One thing that was inspiring to me was the layout. I like how there are corridor like areas attached to a sort of central area that you periodically come back to--the backtracking works well with this map, and I've maximized gameplay elements for backtracking in the map.

The other thing that inspired me was the secret areas. The two major things I've put time into the map have been inclusion of more secrets and engineering improve gameplay when backtracking (that is, more interesting and intense battles). As a result the map is harder, so I've upgraded some existing secrets in creative ways to offset the improved difficulty. I don't know if you got the PM I sent you, but I have removed the BFG I had added as I think it cheapens gameplay elements (For example the Cyber battle is excellent with plasma and SSG but less fun with a BFG). If I could give the BFG a different ammo type and thus have it have severely limited ammo throughout the map, then a BFG could work in the map.

Some of the changes I made weren't corresponding to my suggestions, such as having health in secrets and teleports in more interesting places after getting the red and yellow keys. I didn't change that. I didn't change that much of what you did. I moved the blur sphere to a place where it can be more beneficial, but otherwise item movement hasn't been too much changed. I've added things (such as a teleport platform near the red door but not at the red door; the beginning of the map was a bit farther than what I had in mind, but could work..) I tried not to add too many new areas to the map but rather focused on improving existing areas through backtracking in interesting and creative ways (this has proved very time consuming but fun and rewarding). I guess to summarize the main highlights of what I've done would be now there are more than one way to accomplish the same goals with very different consequences for what you choose.

Let me know if you'd like to see it! I put a lot of time into it and I think it's worth a look. I'd like at least one other person to play it with my changes!

[bullsquid]

Here is the updated version of the map, getting closer to finish.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/xle454

[hawkwind]

Sector 285 is unfinished. It is too high and has no teleport action. Also, if the player falls in the lava on the north side of sectors 4/99, near lines 155/164 etc. the player is trapped and dies.

Also don't forget to remove sprite 32000

[bullsquid]

Yeah thx for pointing that out. That sector was just something i tried but it didn't fit in well, i forgot to delete it.

Uploaded again with removal of that sector and 3d mode start thing.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/5ugsbo

Check again for errors plz.

[hawkwind]

Did you intend sectors 4 and 99 to be death sectors, with no way out for the player ?

[Hellbent]

hawkwind said:

Did you intend sectors 4 and 99 to be death sectors, with no way out for the player ?

I agree it is no bueno. In my edited version, I put two little teleports in each corner (they're rather hidden, but a desperate person will find them. You sure you don't want to see my changes Bullsquid?

[hawkwind]

Personally, I would prefer sectors 33, 35, 36, 37 and 38 to be lift sectors ... or maybe just sector 33.