A small (though very long) rant about custom doom levels in general.

[Antroid]

Okay, first of all, a little introduction.

(I already predict this post to be an enormous wall of text, but i can never help myself. Ignore it if you want).

My first Doom was the SNES port (which i loved and which was probably the most mentally influential thing to ever happen to me ever). Not too long after that i got my first PC i found and tried Doom 2 (with the original version of Doom of course, but it was more or less familiar). At that time i completely hated Doom 2, but lately i've been looking at it from my own perspective, and i love the potential that was in it, hard to explain though (actually most of it seems to be my made up ideas that i project on Doom 2 as if it was all really intended). But as strange as it sounds, the thing i love most about Doom 1&2 is their atmospere (actually, i think it remains the main reason i like any games now, new and old). As a kid, i often dreamed about Doom, made little book-animations (it's when you draw your frames at the edge of every page and then scroll throgh them) about stuff like somebody entering a teleport, then using a lift upwards into a field with lamps and getting killed by a single imp. I even drew still shots from Doom in a SNES game similiar to Mario Paint (fun'n'games or something). Other games and stuff reminded me of Doom and the feelings of the levels, it all got crazy mixed up and made a mess in my head.

So yeah.

Fortunately, i got my hands on Doom Builder after i was already kickin' it in Serious Sam's level editor, so, being a little experienced, i went straight to making my wad/megawad, trying to shove all my ideas for levels and settings in it, while keeping the traditional doom1+2 episode structure. But that's not the point.

The point of this rant is to find out if i'm in a complete minority or even alone in my tastes. I tried playing a lot of famous and widely loved megawads, but most of them just frustrated me. Though the community developed in a completely opposite direction, i always found that the best mood in Doom is achieved when you run little on everything, with monsters around every corner. But not hordes of them, so that a single guy could make you feel tense. Doom 1 was like this for me, and i loved it, but i just can't get into the mass-slaughtering style of gameplay.
And then there is the graphics. I have my own little theory (which i saw shared a few times), basically it says that more primitive grapchis make the immersion stronger because they leave a lot to the imagination, like books, and it can do amazing things, unlike when the picture that's given to you is supposed to be the final look of it, like a movie. It's obvious that Doom levels never approach it, but still i feel that all those details people add to the maps completely ruin the atmosphere. Actually i just tried The ultimate torment and torture and was disappointed similiarly to how Deus Vult 2, AV and so on disappointed me. (also the setting, which looks like scythe 2's beginning a lot, has absolutely no atmosphere for me). Doesn't help that on the very first level, on the first difficulty setting, you get to fight two archviles while getting stuck in details of the geometry.

Oh well, the length of the post is getting out of my control.

To sum it up, i dislike:
-overdetail (a lot of people do it seems, but i call a lot more stuff overdetail. I remember even Complexity sucks being way too overdetailed for some reason);
-generic and unexplained setting (although i don't consider the themes of doom1&2 generic, just classic. Abstract castles on the other hand are generic);
-slaughterfest gameplay, with nearly all the guns/powerups/enemies being thrown at you in the very first levels;
-surprise rape ambushes which you have to know of beforehand to survive;
-ethnic level themes like egypt (very subjective and doesn't really belong on the list);
-"epicness" with ogg music, army battles and giant realistic buildings/stuff (also scripted events);
-heavy use of soureport stuff like slopes, glass, water etc.

Overall, trying to make Doom into something that it isn't, but not like total conversions, well, you probably know what i mean. I also always play without vertical mouselook and opengl (software rendering only), because those too can kind of hurt the mood sometimes.

I like this stuff though:
-little story text files or intermissions, not too complicated though, the original doom's "story" was immersive enough, and it helps the mood if you know what the character actually feels and thinks, even if it is an abstract level set;
-atmospheric level ideas, can't provide any examples though for some reason. Maybe from my wad-in-progress, but that would be too much like bragging and i hate that;
-the difficulty that keeps you tense throughout the whole level, but actually can't kill you in two seconds every ten meters, and lets you probably finish the level on 3th/4th difficulty with no saves on the third try max;
-levels that have actual themes, even abstract hell levels that don't look like anything, but are still memorable.

Ir probably looks like i'm drowning in nostalgia, and i won't argue with that... It's a shame though that my mapping "skill" is often based on luck, and though i like what i made for my wad so far, it can't be a good enough example of my tastes. (And nobody seems to notice/get stuff i'm most proud of unless i point it out).

Well, it's all i think. Basically, looks like i care for atmosphere and mood a whole lot, and bitch if it feels nothing like doom but is supposed to. I also am too lazy to adapt to the dominating overly brutal gameplay style. I should've formulated questions of something, but i really just want even a few patient people to read through my entire post and share their opinions.
Pretty bad for a first post, but stuff like this is bugging me a whole lot all the time, and i can't even let it out properly.
Also if you cringe at my english, please forgive me because it's not my first language (i'm russian, yeah).

[esselfortium]

I'm a bit confused. Your likes and dislikes seem to completely contradict each other.

You say you dislike "generic" settings, but you consider castles generic and generic Doom techbases to be non-generic...and then at the same time you dislike, for example, Egypt-themed maps, which I would consider to be pretty far from generic. And then you say you like atmospheric maps, but can't think of any. Any of the great atmospheric maps I can think of feature at least some of your dislikes, many of which are things I would consider to add to their quality.

You don't like UTNT, Deus Vult 2, Alien Vendetta, Scythe 2, or...Doom 2 itself.

So...what do you like?

I'm also not sure what this whole "overdetail" concept came from. Either a map is aesthetically pleasing, or it isn't. It can be visually interesting using simple geometry, or with more complex designs. I hate cluttery details that are copied and pasted around with no rhyme or reason, but I have a mapping style that uses more lines and sectors than many of the other people here. I still consider it to be clean-looking, however. I'm just not really sure what is considerable as "overdetail", other than a vague word used to describe maps that are, I guess, cluttered with poorly-designed detail and architecture?

[Creaphis]

Let it out. Let it all out.

You're definitely not alone in your tastes, and most of us still appreciate the classic styles. Of course, we also like our slaughterfests and our detail-whoring. The development of slaughterfest gameplay was pretty much inevitable, as the average skill level of Doomers increased, and technical development has also led people to use and appreciate high detail and source port features. But you will face no scorn for your opinions here. I share your preference for atmospheric, non-generic environments with a nice little story attached.

Of course, it couldn't hurt to try to be more open to some of the wads that everybody seems to like but you. You'll learn to appreciate them soon enough.

[fraggle]

Different styles appeal to different people. If you don't like the levels you're playing, try other ones instead. There are literally thousands in the database. Personally, I'd say my tastes are probably closer to yours, but WADs like KDiZD have obviously been appealing to a large number of people.

I do think that it's important to have a variety of different themes. While I obviously think it's important to preserve the older themes and styles derived from the original game (see: Chocolate Doom), I also think it's important that people experiment and keep pushing the boundaries. Would people still care about Doom at all at this point if it had just been 15 years of tech bases?

I'm sure people here will be happy to recommend some levels in the style you enjoy. They may not be as prominent as you'd like, but they do exist and people do make them. You might want to read through the 10years best WADs list to see if there's anything that you like.

[justanotherfool]

I would also recommend Memento Mori, Memento Mori 2, Requiem, Back to Basics, Vile Flesh and the 2 Needs More Detail episodes. Definitely not slaughter maps, and not too detailed either, although if your detail threshold is really that low, a few of these may be too much.

I wouldn't call Alien Vendetta a slaughterfest, although it undoubtedly contains slaughter maps. I thought most of the early maps in particular were pretty low on the monster count. But you could always turn the skill level down if needs be.

It isn't really possible for single monsters to create tension anymore since we're all presumably much better players now than when we were children (or at least beginners). Nowadays, low monster counts don't really present a threat unless conditions are very cramped and/or ammo is very low.

[40oz]

justanotherfool said:

Nowadays, low monster counts don't really present a threat unless conditions are very cramped and/or ammo is very low.

I think that's what he meant. If you make a long map that has the exact amount of ammo you need to kill each monster, a stimpack in every other room, etc. This kinda skill should be mastered by anyone attempting to create a horror-themed map. Having little ammo and less than 60% health at all times is a really good way to keep someone scared.

I kinda agree with most of what he is saying, except for the fact that I love being presented a seemingly endless number of cacodemons and a rocketlauncher with tons of ammo. But I don't really get why you like Doom 1 for being the opposite of this, because everytime I play Doom 1, it's just meandering into every room and clearing with a shotgun. I'm never short on ammo, which kinda hides the glory of most of the weapons. Many of the monsters hardly pose a threat when there's body armor in every map.

Granted, I love Doom 1 but I don't see how it meets the OP's standards, besides the lack of super duper detail.

[Deeforce]

Antroid said:

[...] i dislike:
-overdetail [...]
-generic and unexplained setting [...]
-slaughterfest gameplay, with nearly all the guns/powerups/enemies being thrown at you in the very first levels;
-surprise rape ambushes which you have to know of beforehand to survive;
-ethnic level themes like egypt [...]
-"epicness" with ogg music, army battles and giant realistic buildings/stuff (also scripted events);
-heavy use of soureport stuff like slopes, glass, water etc.

In short: I like what you dislike, so I may hate your levels, if you release them in some time :-P !

Antroid said:

[...]The point of this rant is to find out if i'm in a complete minority or even alone in my tastes.

You are not alone. Just look at all the vanilla map creators... I think these maps are okay, but I like much more detailed maps.

[Antroid]

spoiler: i love the word "stuff" so much it's embarassing. I should go to sleep before writing another post.


esselfortium
I think it's just how my definitions of things go. And also maybe i worded some stuff poorly.
About generic stuff. Well, Doom's standart themes are common for doom itself, but such castles are just too common overall. I guess i would've liked a more real-looking castle (with some doom-style hellish twistery going on preferably because i LOVE that) than the quake ripoff abstract ones. (TOO abstract).
And the ethnic-themed levels are just my personal distaste, born from the times when ninjas and katanas were in fantasy rpgs and egyptian pyramids were there too for some reason. For me it's a lot worse than, say, medieval stuff. But then again, what palce does stricktly medieval stuff have in doom? If it was explained at least a bit, i'd probably like it too.
Also wait. I like doom 2. I just thought it was very badly designed a few years after i first played it. Also i like a lot of stuff. I liked scythe 1 (before i got stuck on that silver level with a red sky forever). I kinda liked Deus Vult 1 (mostly level 2's corridors for some reason, and also DKC music :D ). I like a lot of the simplier stuff i can't name now, too. And i like my few levels :)

About overdetail.
For me, even stuff like gradient shadows from lamps and too round corners are overdetail in Doom. Also the stuff like missing floor tiles (or single floor tiles lying around), and, well... I could provide screenshot examples if anybody cares. Not now though, i'm going to sleep now :) Also the examples of "enough detail" would be from my own levels, because i make them according to my tastes.
Basically, i don't consider a lot of stuff that people like "aesthetically pleasing", because it's very subjective.


Creaphis
Well, every now and then i try some of the (mega)wads i originally disliked... Some problems can be solved by choosing an easier difficulty, but not the atmosphere ones. It's still hard to find the balance. For example, your phrase "atmospheric, non-generic environments with a nice little story attached" sounds scarily like something that, if misinterpreted, i'd dislike. Say, scripted storyline event at the beginning, a lot of ambient sounds and special effects for the atmosphere, and set in some alien tropical jungle temple base. Ugh.
But on the other hand, the original Doom fits this description, and that's exactly what i like.
Nice to be reassured that i don't stand out too much, though, because with some of my tastes in things it happens too often.


fraggle
I keep trying new wads, but i'm often too lazy either to actually try to play it (and the first death makes me quit) or even to just try a new wad because there's so much of them.
One thing's funny though. When i uploaded a single example level from my wad at our russian forum, i stated that it required zdoom, because i used things like mapinfo and decorate a lot. But our doomers were convinced that if i require zdoom, i might as well use all of it's features, like slopes. Also nobody agreed to play with software rendering and no mouselook, even though i clearly stated that the level (as the whole wad) was kinda designed for those settings. For example, the opengl mode stretches the skies horribly, and for me they always were very helpful at setting or feeling the mood.


justanotherfool
Thanks, i appreciate the recommendations, i'll try them all after i get my sleep. I wasn't exactly expecting people to start recommending wads for me, but it's now obvious that it'd happen and i'm pretty happy with that.
Also yeah, i foolishly tried AV on UV the first time and after the first few levels i was completely destroyed by it. It would be nice to try it again using easier skill settings, though even AV seemed to be just a little too detailed. (well, maybe not and my memory's just playing tricks. I remember that it was pretty but unatmosperic. It also was my first custom megawad ever).
As for the monsters, well, i did mention i liked it when you run ouf of ammo and health constantly, but not extremely (so if you play carefully you'll always have at least 50-60 health and like 10 shells and 40 bullets). I also like the idea of monsters that you're not even supposed to kill, just to run away from. For example, i actually put barons in map01 and a lot of strong guys in the last few minutes of map02 (you just have to rush past them to the exit). But i was told that people hate not being able to get 100% kills, so i had to make sure to allow that one way or another.
It seems that people here are actually a lot less narrow-minded in their tastes, so i think i'll be able to get some decent testing help from somebody who shares mine when more of my wad will be done.


JohnnyRancid
Wow, you completely guessed what i just typed before your reply was here. Also Doom 1 was like that for me in my earlier SNES days, it literally produced lots of nightmares of me running around hellish places with barons and cacos everywhere and not nearly enough means to survive. :)
Also doom 1 is very atmospheric due to the little pieces of story, great music and a bit of nostalgia. But it's actually a bit below what i'd not be ashamed to release graphically. So it's near perfect now, and was perfect when i was younger.
(i remember a funny story. after me and my cousin finally beat eps2 and 3 of SNES doom in one sitting at our countryhouse, we went outside to breath some fresh air and relax after that kind of tension. I saw a red barrel with rain water and actually said out loud that i could've exploded it if i had a red key. That's how doom screwed with my brain back then.)


Deeforce
I'm prepared for some hate, though i try to add stuff most people like too, so it would appeal to more people. I don't step too far from my original formula though, which is described by the things i like.

[Creaphis]

I think I understand what sort of atmosphere you like. The wads that I find atmospheric aren't only those with the ambient sounds and special effects; some very involving wads are vanilla Doom compatible. This is one of my favourite wads, and it runs with Doom.exe. In fact, it almost entirely uses just the resources in Doom.wad. Yet, it made me feel strongly immersed, and the gradual transformation of the tech base levels into a hellish environment really spooked me. But, I'm worried that you'll find even this wad to be too detailed, judging by this:

Antroid said:

For me, even stuff like gradient shadows from lamps and too round corners are overdetail in Doom.

Heh. Welcome to 1996.

I've always felt that complex and high-contrast lighting strengthens a level's suspenseful atmosphere. I guess you don't feel that way, and I guess that's fine.

[EarthQuake]

Gradient shadows aren't high contrast. High contrast would be where a light source is around a corner and it casts a hard shadow around such a corner. If you want a good example, look at the maze entrance in E1M2. That is an excellent use of high contrast lighting, and it's a shame so many people are intent on using a million sectors for stuff like this. It might look pretty, but there goes the realism and atmosphere out the window.

Intricate detail doesn't bother me, except when it's used retardedly. Like plastering every single empty space on the walls and ceiling with stuff just so it doesn't look empty. This is poor mapping if you ask me. If you can't make your room architecturally interesting without all the bullshit "detail" flooding it, then it's time to redo the room or re-evaluate your "detailing skillz".

[Spleen]

justanotherfool said:

I would also recommend Memento
It isn't really possible for single monsters to create tension anymore since we're all presumably much better players now than when we were children (or at least beginners). Nowadays, low monster counts don't really present a threat unless conditions are very cramped and/or ammo is very low.

It seems all of you are forgetting the two things called "fast mode", and "respawn monsters", which together are called "Nightmare". They can really make a smaller monster count go a long way in terms of difficulty. What do you think, Antroid? Does playing easier WADs in Nightmare, or just with fast monsters or respawn monsters ruin the atmosphere? Or does it instead make it better than a harder WAD in UV?

Personally, I felt like I relived DOOM when I re-compiled ZDoom with twice the tickrate then fought a Cyberdemon on e2m8. It was, of course, even harder than the one in fast mode - it shot rockets that travelled at twice the speed twice as fast and twice as often. My heart rate went quite a bit; not as much as the first time I faced it, but much more than when I play even difficult WADs these days. But maybe that is not the kind of atmosphere you enjoy..

Slightly off topic, but perhaps a criticism of KDIZD and a suggestion for you, Esselfortium: make your KDIKDIZD monsters faster in DEHACKED. I don't know about you but monsters felt way faster back when I first played DOOM, because I was new to FPSes and reacted and moved very slowly. KDIZD felt really sluggish, and would have perhaps been a better re-enactment of the original episode of DOOM if monsters were faster (in speed, fire rate, reaction time.. everything) and possibly the player was slower (who knew how to strafe run back when they first played DOOM? I strafe run all the time now, so I'm *physically* faster than I was back then). This is only slightly off topic, since I wish to have the OP's opinion on the effect of the speed of the monsters and the player on DOOM's atmosphere. :)

[esselfortium]

EarthQuake said:

Gradient shadows aren't high contrast. High contrast would be where a light source is around a corner and it casts a hard shadow around such a corner. If you want a good example, look at the maze entrance in E1M2. That is an excellent use of high contrast lighting, and it's a shame so many people are intent on using a million sectors for stuff like this. It might look pretty, but there goes the realism and atmosphere out the window.

Eh? It's possible to have high-contrast lighting like that and still use a few thin sectors around the edges to smooth the transition a bit and make it look more natural.

Intricate detail doesn't bother me, except when it's used retardedly. Like plastering every single empty space on the walls and ceiling with stuff just so it doesn't look empty. This is poor mapping if you ask me. If you can't make your room architecturally interesting without all the bullshit "detail" flooding it, then it's time to redo the room or re-evaluate your "detailing skillz".

Agreed.

Spleen said:

Slightly off topic, but perhaps a criticism of KDIZD and a suggestion for you, Esselfortium: make your KDIKDIZD monsters faster in DEHACKED. I don't know about you but monsters felt way faster back when I first played DOOM, because I was new to FPSes and reacted and moved very slowly. KDIZD felt really sluggish, and would have perhaps been a better re-enactment of the original episode of DOOM if monsters were faster (in speed, fire rate, reaction time.. everything) and possibly the player was slower (who knew how to strafe run back when they first played DOOM? I strafe run all the time now, so I'm *physically* faster than I was back then). This is only slightly off topic, since I wish to have the OP's opinion on the effect of the speed of the monsters and the player on DOOM's atmosphere. :)

Eeeeh.....this is more the kind of thing for which I'd recommend just doing a custom addon patch for personal use.

[myk]

Antroid said:
-overdetail (a lot of people do it seems, but i call a lot more stuff overdetail. I remember even Complexity sucks being way too overdetailed for some reason);

I generally agree with this. Going down too low on the scale can cause this, in lighting or architecture. The palette and low resolution limitations of the game demand simpler designs, or they'll look overloaded.

-generic and unexplained setting (although i don't consider the themes of doom1&2 generic, just classic. Abstract castles on the other hand are generic);

Actually, if you try to make something explainable in DOOM, you'll probably wreck it. A degree of characterization will help, but it doesn't have to make sense. Consistency can be managed in different ways. This topic is tricky without concrete examples, though.

-slaughterfest gameplay, with nearly all the guns/powerups/enemies being thrown at you in the very first levels;

It's nonsense that DOOM is not slaghter-fests (and the action that goes with it). It's not a slaughter fest when you're a beginner, because you have to be extremely careful due to limited movement possibilities (and I'm talking about the out-of-the-box levels). Gameplay-wise to me early playing was enticing, but also frustrating. I don't really want to go back there, or resort again to save games all the time. But when you play it with more skill, it's more about blasting through hordes of enemies, with occasional moody moments with less opponents. Especially DOOM II. DOOM is a bit less populated, but still has packs of monsters trying to go at you in certain areas. We get better at the game after years of it (and other FPSs), so it's natural that the hordes grow in numbers, at least in some WADs.

I'm not saying I want all the levels I play to have tons of monsters, but it's certainly part of the game, and when balanced well, a lot of fun.

-surprise rape ambushes which you have to know of beforehand to survive;

I can't say I agree because that sounds like one-time oriented gameplay. All traps or other encounters, to be challenging when replaying a level, must be even more so the first time through. By the second time you play, you already know about the trap, and if the trap is too tough anyway, there's always skill levels (at least in WADs that are properly finished). If traps are abused, it's either because they become predictable, or it may be a sign that we may need to try a lower difficulty level till we are more familiar with the level, and then increase from there (if worthwhile).

-"epicness" with ogg music, army battles and giant realistic buildings/stuff (also scripted events);

There are various things mixed up in there :p

Epicness can be cool. Look at the size of MAP24 in DOOM II. Spaciousness can set the mood.

-heavy use of soureport stuff like slopes, glass, water etc.

Rest assured that there's a good number of people that don't care for those, as well as people that may be interested in that stuff, but also in more rudimentary design.

I also always play without vertical mouselook and opengl (software rendering only), because those too can kind of hurt the mood sometimes.

This is common too. A good number of people use engines like PrBoom and Chocolate Doom (or the original executables) where freelook and jumping are absent and OpenGL is optional if available.

-the difficulty that keeps you tense throughout the whole level, but actually can't kill you in two seconds every ten meters, and lets you probably finish the level on 3th/4th difficulty with no saves on the third try max;

It's not like everyone has the same skill, so it's hard to describe that without demanding a difficulty that befits your current skill (whatever it may be). In fact, some WADs you consider frustrating may be designed with what you are saying in mind, just that the author and his friends are brutally efficient at killing DOOM monsters.

[Graf Zahl]

I think far too many people are too limited in their tastes. What's so great about Doom is the variety. It's basically endless.

There's tech levels, medieval, hell and endless other themes. There's 'classic' gameplay and some highly involved more 'modern' stuff. Some are more tactical, others are more action based. There's levels with simple geometry and some that stuff every bit of detail in that's possible.

None of this is bad by default. There's vanilla levels that are a beauty to look at and there's high end ZDoom levels that look like shit. There's some modern level that are pure fun to play and 'classic' ones that have no clue how to use monsters properly. (and the reverse applies, too, of course.) But none of this is due to the basic properties of these maps. It all comes down to execution. If a mapper can't handle the resources at hand the result won't be convincing.

The only things I really don't like are slaughtermaps and gameplay that feels scripted (as in the progression does not depend on what the player does but on what the map forces him to do next in order to advance.)

[esselfortium]

I agree with Graf. There's a billion and one different ways to make a fun and interesting Doom level, from the old standards to new innovations and everything in between, and that's part of the fun of Doom for me.

[Antroid]

Thanks for your replies, everybody. For some reason on every new forum i go to i expect flaming and general unfriendliness to me, probably because after some time i start behaving like a troll a bit, though it's always just honest opinions. I'll try not to do stuff like that here. You people are much more understanding than i'm used to anyway. :)

Creaphis
I'll be sure to give this one a try alongside the other wads people recommended, thanks.
The thing about lighting is that i do like when it's "complex" and high-contrast and moody, but i think that the "gradients" that you can see on the floor that consist of 3-5 shades look ugly. I like sharp shadows even if it's unrealistic. (how much of doom is realistic anyways?)

EarthQuake
Heh, it looks like "plastering every single empty space on the walls and ceiling with stuff just so it doesn't look empty" is exactly what i do with my techbase levels. Every long empty wall is stuffed with computer panels or similiar crap. I think it looks okay though, probably because i can't make large techbase rooms look nice enough otherwise. So some places in my techbase levels are borderline overdetail because i'm probably not experienced enough in Doom mapping (i am in mapping in general though, or at least i like to think so).

Spleen
Nightmare scares me a lot because i don't like respawning monsters too much, i suppose i should try just "fast monsters". It'd feel like some difficulty patch thingie though i'm afraid, like if i went and doubled all the monsters's hp (i actually considred increasing every monster's hp and strength a little bit for my wad so that it feels somewhat harder, but i desided that'd be a somewhat retarded thing to do).

myk
About explainable stuff. Well, i never liked it when people try to recreate realistic places in Doom, but when you're in a place you can't even remotely understand without any reasons (like in most megawads i think), it's not any better. Myself, i added small intermissions after every single map in my wad, which go, for example, like "holy crap that hell invasion and teleportation chaos surely did a thing or two to our base" to justify levels that look like a complete mishmash of tech, medieval, hellish, and abstract rooms (it's mainly my version of episode2).

About slaughterfest. Well, yeah, there were some hordes of monsters, but as i said i don't like it when you're supposed to kill them with your neverending rockets or something. In a tense level where monsters aren't packed around in such numbers, sudden horde or two can be especially terrifying, even more so if your ammo leftovers aren't nearly enough to kill everybody.

About one-time design. It seems that i indeed like one-time design, because if you play a new level with no saves it's a lot more tense than when you replay a familiar level and know what to expect. It can still be challenging, but the immersion is definitely weaker.

About epicness. Well, i really meant stuff like the beginning of episode 4 of TUTNT. There's your army, ogg music, and epicness. On the other hand i loved Deus Vult's level 2, even the large hall. If it was more playable for me and didn't have SO FREAKING MUCH monsters that you're supposed to kill with a bfg while being invincible, i'd absolutely love it. It still was very atmospheric and moody, even the all-too-familiar DKC2 castle music didn't kill it. Places like really large deep underground halls are often nice, for example i love the "chasm" of Doom 2 a lot.

Graf Zahl
I kinda agree, i'm limited only in my tastes for Doom levels though. For Serious Sam style gameplay i have Serious Sam, for hardware-rendered detailed grapchis i have... well, about every game ever. When i play Doom, i usually want it to feel exactly like Doom, otherwise i'd go and play some other game. That may be my problem, but i never understood it when people tried to shove all the stuff they could in a single game that wasn't even remotely meant for that. (Serious Sam modding suffers from this too, it has vehicles, usable computer panels like in doom3, bloom/shaders and rpg-like stat systems. Holy crap).


Also a little bragging-type stuff. An extra thing that i like, but have never noticed in any Doom wads i played. (or maybe i have, but it was too rare and i forgot it). It's bragging-type because i fill my levels with it as much as i can.
So what's "it"? It's little mindscrew details, that are justified in hellish levels. For example i have a dark building that has barred windows on the second floor and you can see some stuff inside it (it's dark inside though). But when you enter it, there are no windows on the inside. It's easy to miss, but screws with people's heads. Another example would be when i had two small cubes with red skull textures on them beside a simple wall, and when you return there with a red key, they aren't there anymore, and there is a proper doorway with a red door in the wall. It has more impact on you if the level is classic-styled and has no scripting.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

There's still part of me that likes the classic atmosphere of old Doom 1 maps you got on those wad discs, but it's just one part of this unique FPS. With all the technology around now, we have people making anything and everything...there's something for everyone. These days I prefer the ultra-modern wads with all the ZDoom features and the non-standard gameplay but I still like limit removing no-nonsense action wads too.

Slaughtermaps are what makes Doom unique IMO, every other FPS has you sneaking around killing no more than a few enemies at a time. The finest examples are slaughtermaps that are structured in such a way that you really have to think tactically on how to beat it. (these sort of maps usually take ages to beat but worth it IMO)

Using -fast can make a difference to low-monster maps, even if hitscanners are annoying with it (although personally I stick it on for slaughtermaps too for extra challenge). There's also the option of running a local ZD/ST server with the 2x monster health/damage flags.

I've never been a sucker for detail and indeed my vanilla wads got slated a bit for being bare, as I prefer functional or realistic detail like furniture, consoles etc. to just sticking 10000 sectors in a map and collecting the acclaim. However I do admit to having the stick-something-in-every-passage-so-it-doesn't-look-empty philosophy these days, but not overkill. I hate detailing rocky maps though...especially when half my current wad is natural/outdoor/rocky type maps :p

[Antroid]

Actually there are a lot of games with more slaughter, like Serious Sam and it's clones (less so - SS2) or Painkiller (probably, didn't play it too much). I just don't feel that Doom is about arcade fighting with a lot of monsters and ammo, for me it's more about survival and running for your life. Might have something to do with my skills at FPSes though :) Well, i did beat the original two dooms on UV and Serious Sam on "Serious"... But still.

Edit: So i started with "Back to basics". It was awesome, a bit too cramped and complicated geometrically though, but overall very nice. Ii enjoyed it until i got stuck at the very second level :D I just pressed a button that opened a "door" around the red key column thing. But nothing else opened and i still can't get up there - even if i backtrack to the beginning of the level, i find no unexplored paths. Going there noclipped reveals a huge portion of the level i haven't seen yet so i didn't do this after i realized that i won't be able to find my way with it.
This wad depressed me a bit though, my levels seem so bad in comparison, even though i try to balance my lack of imagination for level structure with neat (but classical-feeling) features and some other stuff. This wad just looks like a neverending stream of creativity that the author never had a single problem with from start to finish.

Edit2: oh so there actually IS a yellow door at the very beginnig that i somehow missed. I don't even remember when i got the yellow key now. Bactracking like this was the last thing i'd guess i had to do..

[Hellbent]

"The point of this rant is to find out if i'm in a complete minority or even alone in my tastes. I tried playing a lot of famous and widely loved megawads, but most of them just frustrated me. Though the community developed in a completely opposite direction, i always found that the best mood in Doom is achieved when you run little on everything, with monsters around every corner. But not hordes of them, so that a single guy could make you feel tense. Doom 1 was like this for me, and i loved it, but i just can't get into the mass-slaughtering style of gameplay."

Bingo! We have a winner! What has he won Johnny?
You're not alone there; I feel the same way about all the popular megawads that have come through, particularly Vrack (although I didn't play the successors). I don't feel any of them capture as interesting atmosphere and gameplay as the original Dooms. There are some single stand alone maps I've played that have great atmosphere (there was that hellish map by Lutz I believe) (and another hellish style map very true to the Doom blueprint but I don't remember what it was called :(--if anyone has any idea? It kinda was similar to e4m5 but with a hellish theme.) Anyway, I played AV.wad through and I thought a lot of the levels had nice atmosphere and the slaughtering was fun to a point, but a megawad is more memorable to me not by how big and over the top it can be but how well it can have a sense of progression of place and atmosphere and keeping with the small maps and simple designs of Doom 1--as you put it "running little on everything" --Doom is truly at it's greatest in this vein! I've always wanted to make my own, but lack the skills or patience. :(

"And then there is the graphics. I have my own little theory (which i saw shared a few times), basically it says that more primitive grapchis make the immersion stronger because they leave a lot to the imagination, like books, and it can do amazing things, unlike when the picture that's given to you is supposed to be the final look of it, like a movie. It's obvious that Doom levels never approach it, but still i feel that all those details people add to the maps completely ruin the atmosphere. Actually i just tried The ultimate torment and torture and was disappointed similarly to how Deus Vult 2, AV and so on disappointed me. (also the setting, which looks like scythe 2's beginning a lot, has absolutely no atmosphere for me). Doesn't help that on the very first level, on the first difficulty setting, you get to fight two arch-viles while getting stuck in details of the geometry."

Well said! I never thought of looking at it this way: "leaving a lot to the imagination" but it's a good point. The other problem with Vrack level of detail is that you end up with a bunch of square rooms!! OMG kill me of boredom!

I basically agree with you on all points in your post, especially overdetail--I have been complaining about it for forever. I am also nostalgic, tho, for the originals. There's nothing wrong with creating new themes and ideas for Doom, but it just isn't very interesting to me. What makes the original Doom's so timeless is that their places--their atmospheres--were very original and non-committal in their abstractness--Doom 2 to lesser degree, and Doom 1 more so. For me it's Doom's lack of analog anywhere else in the real world or gaming world for atmosphere and level design that makes it so intriguing and still interesting today. Kinda like people who study Beowulf their whole lives or some other piece of literature--usually it's because it's completely original--has no analog--and is vague enough in its themes and intentions that their meanings for interpretations can never be exhausted. In Doom we see this in regards to "leaving a lot to the imagination" and "running little on everything"

[_bruce_]

The overdetailed stuff sucks bad - especially if its done just for the sake of detail.
Tastes differ - as long as it breaths some air into the doom community... put in as much detail as you can.

Im building my own small set of levels, which are exactly as I like it - problem solved.

[Creaphis]

Antroid said:

This wad depressed me a bit though, my levels seem so bad in comparison, even though i try to balance my lack of imagination for level structure with neat (but classical-feeling) features and some other stuff. This wad just looks like a neverending stream of creativity that the author never had a single problem with from start to finish.

I understand how you feel, but don't worry about that - we aren't all Espi (the extremely talented creator of that wad).

[Hellbent]

I'm playing b2b right now and it is really amazing construction of levels. My biggest critique of the megawad is it should use more contrast in the levels and should enter the hell theme more gradually. The sudden appearance of flesh where the yellow key is on level 4 is out of place. Some of the themes become a little repetitive too.

[Antroid]

I understand how you feel, but don't worry about that - we aren't all Espi (the extremely talented creator of that wad).

I'm releived to know that B2B's author is considered extremely talented, it means some people may actually call me a bit talented later :) Usually when i begin feeling like that i give a random level from my wad a run and am reminded that i always remember my own levels a bit worse than they actually are. :) I'm really curious now about how will they be received here. Gonna go and map,map,map :D (and also model a bit too)

[Hellbent]

Antroid, I revived a thread on a doom project idea involving making original style doom 1 maps. Go check out the thread in Wads and Mods! good luck with your maps--maybe post some screenies soon. :)

[Antroid]

Heh, back at our Russian forum a new thread was inspired by one of my posts. I complained about one map being textured almost entirely in BROWN96's variations, and the author replied along the lines of "in case you don't know, it's called style". I found that absolutely ridiculous and said that style doesn't limit the amount of textures as long as they fit together well, but people didn't seem to understand that there is middle ground between using 2-3 textures max and using all stock textures together in a horrible mess of colors. So the creator of Hellfire and Cheogsh, Shadowman, actually started a competition about making a map with 2 textures and 2 flats max. I dunno if he intended it to prove me wrong or anything, i kinda made a break in visiting that forum because people started thinking i was trolling.

Nice coincidence.
Also your thread is pretty interesting. I just started reading it and will see if something came out of it, but i know for sure i wouldn't be able to mimic the originals too well. I'd at least try to improve texture aligment and add a tiiiiny bit of detail.

Also about the screenies. I don't want to start a thread about my wad until it's at least 2/3 complete and there's a lot of stuff to show off. Would it be very bad to post some in this thread instead? Seeing as how it isn't about my wad at all. And is imageshack an okay host for them? It's the one i'm used to.

[Hellbent]

Antroid said:

Also about the screenies. I don't want to start a thread about my wad until it's at least 2/3 complete and there's a lot of stuff to show off. Would it be very bad to post some in this thread instead? Seeing as how it isn't about my wad at all. And is imageshack an okay host for them? It's the one i'm used to.

Coming from one of the people the mods think less of, that would be fine. :)

[myk]

Antroid said:
About one-time design. It seems that i indeed like one-time design, because if you play a new level with no saves it's a lot more tense than when you replay a familiar level and know what to expect. It can still be challenging, but the immersion is definitely weaker.

You'll never acquire skills if you play each level once or twice. Besides, I don't agree that immersion is better the first time, because often the first time's immersion is disrupted by annoyances like finding one's way. I still get immersed in the out-of-the-box levels yet I know them all like the palm of my hand, and they can still be intense if one speeds through them, especially sequentially. If not, it wouldn't be possible to play "from scratch" all the way through a 30 level megawad, which should be an achievement, not a given.

A level that's geared towards one-time play will become boring later. Rather, if deaths occur, the level is asking you to go at it again. Of course, if you die too much it's frustrating, and that's where skill levels come in.

Hellbent said:
Anyway, I played AV.wad through and I thought a lot of the levels had nice atmosphere and the slaughtering was fun to a point, but a megawad is more memorable to me not by how big and over the top it can be

That "over the top" thing came naturally to the authors as the project was lead by a (very skilled) COMPET-N player specialized in max runs, and tested by other such players. Much of its atmosphere is generated mainly by the action in contrast with the type of places in the levels, in the same way it happens in a good CTF or DM level.

My biggest critique of the megawad is it should use more contrast

It's not a megawad :p

But I think that it suffers slightly from being a bit monotonous through not using brighter colors and more space. SiD was more solid in this respect, and also had more spacious areas which really do wonders to both action and background atmosphere, making it in my opinion (and probably many others') Espi's plain-engine masterpiece.

[Antroid]

myk
I think i agree with your points about one-time design and good levels continuing to be immersive even after you play them a lot. It's just that lately i prefer to play everything ever without saves and up until my first death or two. I'm too lazy to "acquire skill", even though i realize i need it even if just to make challenging maps myself.

Anyway, since nobody objected fast enough, have some screenies via imageshack:

I don't use the same sky for all episode 1-styled maps, here's one that goes alongside the standart one.


I can't wait to see people's reactions to these things, especially later when there are active ones. Also this place looks bad on the screen for some reason. It's better ingame.


Some type of quarry. You'll be mining ammo here though :)


The last level of episode 2 (i'll have three 4-level+boss episodes from doom 1 and about ten levels representing doom 2), complete with some barely fitting heroic music (sets the mood nicely though).


A somewhat claustrophobic place that you get teleported into and out from, so it feels enclosed. It's inferno already btw.


I'm quite fond of this level because of it's atmosphere. As far as i can tell it's actually nothing like you feel in the original doom, but it fits well i think.

[TimeOfDeath]

If a map uses the computer or crate textures, I won't play it. Also, I don't play maps that have imps in them. And, all maps that have doors suck. Just kidding. I'll like almost anything. Maps with one texture or a million textures, mega-detail or no detail at all, barely any monsters or mega-slaughter, classic or modern, etc.. It doesn't matter, as long as it's playable I can usually like it. Though, I usually don't really like playing maps where the ammo or health is mega-tight (that's why there's oodles of that stuff in my maps) or maps that are crazy hard. I can respect the mapper and demo'ers, but playing those maps usually just make me wanna kill myself and everyone I've ever met. :)

[Kyka]

TimeOfDeath said:

If a map uses the computer or crate textures, I won't play it. Also, I don't play maps that have imps in them. And, all maps that have doors suck.

I'm (kind-of-but-not-really) pretty sure GreyGhost was writing an article about the top ten nonexistent wads. I'm sure at least some of them will fit these strict requirements. :P

@Antroid. Those screens look kinda interesting.