Just curious: How often do you actually play all 32 levels of others' megawads?

[kristus]

DuckReconMajor said:

take her out in 3 hits.

More like one.

[Vegeta]

I barely play a megawad from start to finish unless I get really interested on it. But most of the time authors follow stereotypes I prefer not to play.

-Random maps
-Megawads that lack new monsters (monsters from the bestiary don't count as new monsters for me, unless the monster were designed for that megawad and then uploaded to the bestiary like KDIZD which I completed).
-Megawads that may have a decent plot, new monsters designed for the megawad, even new decent weapons, but have a shitty gameplay.

[Graf Zahl]

Vegeta said:

-Megawads that lack new monsters (monsters from the bestiary don't count as new monsters for me, unless the monster were designed for that megawad and then uploaded to the bestiary like KDIZD which I completed).

That's really not a valid argument against any WAD.

[PhilibusMo]

Right, time for some honesty. I have never completed doom 2 without cheating. I have only ever managed to get to barrels of fun which leaves me with low health and then the chasm (which i think is my least favourite of any stock doom levels) always finishes me off and I can't be bothered afer dying on it 20+ times. I have completed every episode of doom though, problem is that even though I enjoy doom allot and have been playing for atleast 10 years I still am not particuarly good, my favourite difficulty is roughly episode 3 on UV. Doom 2 and almost all mega wads are far beyond that difficulty and so I just get killed over and over again. I only managed to get to level 11 on PL2 before i got way out of my depth.

[Creaphis]

As was just discussed above, try pistol starting the levels. If the problem is that you start Chasm with too little health, it may actually help you.

[PhilibusMo]

I may well try that, I just despise The Chasm though, levels with far to much damaging floor just irritate the shit outa me. Well I suppose I'll take it as one of those things you don't want to do but have to be done to achieve something good, but not tonight, i'm off to the pub and then i'm gonna do some work on Lost in Doom. And probably not tomorow as I will be sorting out all the beer related errors I have made.
Gotta complete it some time though, just completeing it on co-op doesn't really count.

[Vegeta]

Graf Zahl said:

That's really not a valid argument against any WAD.

Why not? There are many megawads that lack new monsters, I could make a large list. Ok, I'm not sure if there are megawads with monsters from the bestiary and nothing really new (never seen before), but I know of some planed multi level wads that enter on this category.

[kristus]

Graf Zahl said:

That's really not a valid argument against any WAD.

I'd say it is. I'm for instance not really interested in the common megawad. But any project that delivers more than just new maps. Such as a committed story, new monsters and weapons or something else that will give me the reason to go on, looking where it'll take me.

With just maps. There's little to motivate me to go forward since I've pretty much seen it all. Just maps I play till I've had my fill then I generally forget all about them as I move on to do something else. So usually I only make it through about 3-5 maps in any megawad.

[Pirx]

@ kristus: exactly my thought. i've played pretty much every megawad after 15 years of playing this game, it's more or less variations of known themes, so new enemies, textures, music or weapons give me more incentive to play through a megawad. however, these should be used sparingly and only when fitting imo. i think most players prefer a good wad with only standard enemies (like plutonia 2) over one with tons of new monsters and mapping tricks but poor gameplay.

[Graf Zahl]

Torr Samaho said:

i think most players prefer a good wad with only standard enemies (like plutonia 2) over one with tons of new monsters and mapping tricks but poor gameplay.

Which would be perfectly normal, wouldn't it?


While I agree that most megawads are mostly redundant just making new monsters/textures/whatever a deciding factor is stupid.

The problem with most megawads is that most fall into 2 categories:
- ultra conservative maps that slavishly stick to Doom 2's design goals, regardless of texture/monster use in them.
- random collections of maps having no sense of progression at all.
(not to mention those which combine these 2.)

Yes, I like to see something new and interesting. But that does not mean I require new monsters or new textures. There have been amazing maps using nothing but standard textures and added almost no other content, too. Imagine an entire megawad with maps like Richard Wiles's Monolith series. Wouldn't that be one hell of a ride, even though they don't use any non-IWAD resources whatsoever?

[DaniJ]

How often do you actually play all 32 levels of others' megawads?

Never. Never, ever ever. If I were to sit down and actually play through them all; I would never get anything done. At most I'll play the odd level or two from the IWADs to check I haven't broken something or to debug a reported issue in some mod whilst working on Doomsday. If it looks particularly engaging I might play a few levels but thats about the extent of my DOOM "gaming" these days.

[Vegeta]

Graf Zahl said:

staff

These arguments are as valid or invalid as mine. Each one has his own tastes for DOOM wads.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

Never. Never, ever ever. If I were to sit down and actually play through them all; I would never get anything done. At most I'll play the odd level or two from the IWADs to check I haven't broken something or to debug a reported issue in some mod whilst working on Doomsday. If it looks particularly engaging I might play a few levels but thats about the extent of my DOOM "gaming" these days.

How can you even work on a Doom engine with such an attitude towards the game? :D


For me, being able to play stuff is still the main motivation to do things.

[kristus]

Graf Zahl said:

While I agree that most megawads are mostly redundant just making new monsters/textures/whatever a deciding factor is stupid.

Of course not. That's what was so silly about KDIZD (as the most obvious example). A load of new monsters and weapons for no good reason what so ever. But at least it kept me playing, wondering what I'd see next.

I could list you my favorit Doom wads and the vast majority of them will be some kind of PC or TC. So for me to be interested there has to be something more than "just" good maps. I'd say my portfolio (fancy word +10 points) of Doom WADs lay witness of my interests.

[DuckReconMajor]

Graf Zahl said:

How can you even work on a Doom engine with such an attitude towards the game? :D


For me, being able to play stuff is still the main motivation to do things.

I guess there needs to be a balance of those who are more into the code than the game, and those who are more into the game than the code.

[myk]

Graf Zahl said:
How can you even work on a Doom engine with such an attitude towards the game? :D

For me, being able to play stuff is still the main motivation to do things.

Indeed. Most of the best mappers are intensive players. I can see how the more effective engine coders give playing importance, too.

Torr Samaho said:
i've played pretty much every megawad after 15 years of playing this game, it's more or less variations of known themes, so new enemies, textures, music or weapons give me more incentive to play through a megawad.

I think there's too much variation as it is, without that sort of changes, even. Each megawad demands a lot of time, and beyond that can be played even more because good WADs get better with time. I can still play through DOOM II and have fun, or do different things with it, such as improve my times, routes or the like. Add to that each good megawad and I lose interest in hunting for "new" stuff. People that really need "something different" tend to spend more time on other games which are truly something new. Sticking to more or less the same stuff ("materials") isn't different than playing football or chess a lot. Do you change the rules of chess and football in sake of variety? Variety in how the game plays is more of an imperative to mappers than players because the former want their maps to stand out as a design or creation. One of the aspects that makes play intensive is consistency, such as sticking to the same rules (engine behavior) or even a particular set of levels. The creative and playing aspects each have their own idiosyncrasies and may lead in different directions.

DuckReconMajor said:
Actually, when I think about it, you're absolutely right. What comes to mind is E3M8 from Doom, which is actually a more fun fight than the Cyberdemon if you don't run in with the BFG from E3M7 and take her out in 3 hits.

Or try what I suggested above, which is an inherent behavior of the game. Play consecutively, but if you die, start that level from scratch. This way, you get the benefit of previous equipment when surviving, and also get to note tough levels or sections are in relation to the whole (counting benefits from previous easier levels) by how many times you die (if any). Some source ports may have autosave that may get in the way if this, but it should be possible to disable it.

Playing per level is also good, to determine how well each level plays independently, while the above method gives the whole game a way to be played in a similar fashion.

[DaniJ]

Graf Zahl said:

How can you even work on a Doom engine with such an attitude towards the game? :D

For me, being able to play stuff is still the main motivation to do things.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the odd game of DOOM occasionally. However, I just get far more enjoyment from the development process than the game itself now.

I enjoy working within the DOOM scene (most of the time anyway) as it gives me a focus and a set of user-values with which to guide my development effort, plus DOOM is my all-time favourite game. Over the years since DOOM's original release I just learned to appreciate it on different levels, ultimately cumulating in my appreciation for the inherent beauty in the core design principals of the engine itself.

EDIT:
As for motivation, I don't need to actually play DOOM (or the countless number of mods available for it) in order to want to work on Doomsday.

[DuckReconMajor]

myk said:

Or try what I suggested above, which is an inherent behavior of the game. Play consecutively, but if you die, start that level from scratch. This way, you get the benefit of previous equipment when surviving, and also get to note tough levels or sections are in relation to the whole (counting benefits from previous easier levels) by how many times you die (if any). Some source ports may have autosave that may get in the way if this, but it should be possible to disable it.

Playing per level is also good, to determine how well each level plays independently, while the above method gives the whole game a way to be played in a similar fashion.

Yeah, I had autosave disabled before, like when I tried Nightmare and got tired of starting the second level with like 10 health. I just got too excited over the "Wow! I get to keep my weapons for THE ENTIRE GAME" thing.

By the way, for ZDoom, console command is "disableautosave 1"

[Hellbent]

I finish megawads about as much as I finish books, which is about 18% of the time.

[Reevys]

Hmm, I guess looking at it from these points of view, the reason I play all the way through megawads is because I want new levels to play. For 10 years, all I played was PSX Doom, so I bought PC Doom for the variety, for something new. And I got that playing through Ultimate Doom and Doom II (even though a lot of the levels are the same, some of the levels look different, or have areas added or removed). Playing through megawads right now has me excited at just the sheer amount of levels I've got to play through, and I know I'm not gonna get bored anytime soon.

[40oz]

PhilibusMo said:

I may well try that, I just despise The Chasm though, levels with far to much damaging floor just irritate the shit outa me.

I totally feel ya. I don't mind little rivers you have to sprint across, like the beginning of E1M5, phobos lab, but those maps where your on a suspended island or bridge 99% of the time and all damaging floors below you, (like the living end, map29) and you gotta run around aimlessly trying to find the secret door or cave that has the only teleporter to get out. That shit pisses me off. However it does give me more of an incentive to be careful, but that can often be detracted when a lost soul is biting you the entire time your scaling a wall, or if an archvile shows up outta nowhere.

[Nuxius]

I typically play all 32 maps in a megawad, however, I don't think I've ever played them in order. Whenever I start a megawad, I just skip around through all the maps, playing whichever ones look interesting enough in a map editor/at their starts or have positive comments about them on the forums.

[geo]

I only play 32 level megawads or at least 9 level megawads. I hate all of the little wads and yes I play every single level. Scythe and Scythe 2 come to mind.

[Graf Zahl]

geo said:

I hate all of the little wads.

Why are you punishing yourself like this?

[myk]

geo said:
I hate all of the little wads

You just pick on them because they're small!

[IRod54]

All the time!

[Cursed Lemon]

I play through coopbuild and IAUC all the time. :)

[Nems]

I generally try to make it a point to play every level of any WAD I play, and if I have trouble getting to the secret levels, I'll IDCLEV my way to them. :v

[myk]

What I do with the secret levels is warp to them later, after I'm done, if I missed any of them.

[Creaphis]

I obsessively hunt for the secret exits, only to pistol start the secret level once I actually find it.