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gggmork

A second cruelly hard map

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*new* 3-28-09 map (ccc.wad):

http://www.sendspace.com/file/khfrx0
(tested w/ prboomplus & zdoom, uv only)
Maybe the hardest map I've made so far, longer and visually better than the one below, but still focused on gameplay. Its probably finished but might need tweaks like time lifts take or ammo etc and I havn't maxed it yet with or without saves- but if i or anyone makes a demo on this version and decide to make a change, the next version could just be called v2 so this demo/version won't desync.
Since I hate figuring stuff out in maps, this is what happens: you have to walk into every 'doughnut' to light it up. After they're all lit, a dummy doll gives you a megasphere and the bfg platforms lower as well as the central area (same trigger, just timed a bit later). Hit the center switch to reveal 3 eye switches around the outer perimeter. Each eye switch makes 5 viles warp center, after all 3 eyes are switched, 7 central cybers are lowered (each platform timed a bit later than previous). The exit's in the middle after you hit those switches. Most likely this is all obvious anyway.



earlier 3-22-09 map (bbb.wad):

http://www.sendspace.com/file/y35f0y
(tested w/ prboomplus & zdoom, uv only)
just a simple map where difficulty is due to confined space/weak weapons instead of monster count. I only cared about gameplay, so hardly bothered with textures/detail. Only 18 enemies (except for commander keens and an off-map imp that is just used to make everything 'paused' until you fire a shot at the beginning (then its crushed)).

You have to handle a cyber in an extremely confined space with a single barrel. Strategy for the arch+chaingunner section = try to use the arch as cover from the chaingunner. I'll try a demo tomorrow (only beat it with saves so far).

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OK, just did a quick run through, and dear God was that hard. To hard in fact, that it just wasn't fun. I get what you were trying to do, and I think you proved that a small enemy count doesn't equal an easy level. But you also proved that lack of movement + large enemies, powerful enemies = flat out annoying.

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Yeah, I'm weird in that I seem to like gameplay to be frustratingly hard. I would expect 95% of the community to dislike it actually. I generally prefer difficulty generated from chaos of hordes of enemies, and this minimal enemy count was kinda a small experiment.
Actually one of the things that often bothered me about modern 1st person shooters is they took the 'hordes' concept away mostly and had you often facing only a couple enemies at a time.

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I think even a bit more movement would have helped. I to like games that throw hordes of enemies at you, and trap you in a rather confined environment. I guess that's why I like 8-way shooters like Mutant Storm and Smash TV. But in the case of this level, the space was to cramped.

But I get where you're coming from. I love it in Doom when you've got barely any health, and you're surrounded by enemies. Then suddenly a gap opens between them, and you sprint out to the opposite corner of the room, and breathe a sigh of relief that you managed to escape. Then you turn around and unleash everything you've got before they're back on top of you again. It keeps thing tense and exciting, and I like that.

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20 seconds into this and I already hate you o_O

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20 seconds eh... That long?


Everytime I start to think that I have seen everything, well, along comes a level like this. I learned today how closely you can dodge cyberdemon rockets and still have them miss. I learned some neat tricks for infighting archviles. And I learned that gggmork makes levels that are ... %^*&)(&^(^)_&(*^T$$*T){(we apolgise we are experiencing technical difficulties. We will return to your usual programs presently) ... difficult. 'Course we already knew that, but this takes it to a whole 'nother level.

In truth, I admire gggmorks creativity. It's insane. And however hard the level was, it was very satisfying to finish it.

Thanks muchly, 'Dances with Rockets.'

I am curious to see anyone beat this level without saves, because, while a lot of it is skill, a lot of it is luck too. Does the archvile raise 2 mancs in a row. Does the archvile and the chaingunner take positions that do not allow you to get one shooting the other? How much damage you take from hits is a factor too, 'specally against the 2 mancs at the start, with the pistol. And I loved the way you exit the level with the voodoo dolls. Very clever.

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No way. I can't even get past the mancubii. I enjoy challenging maps, but this is way too confined for me. It'd be awesome to see a demo of someone completing it without cheating though.

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uhhh ya i can't even kill 1 mancubus, i have no clue how u guys finished this did it. my guess is that you have to have a really mature mind and absolute concintration, and alot of luck

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Nice demo, Dances with rockets.

It's funny, I did pretty much everything you did. Dodging the 2 starting mancs by using one to cover me from the other.. Infighting the archs with the chaingunners. we even dodge Cyber rockets in a similar way. But well done on making it look much easier than when I do it. :)

Great demo. I didn't honestly expect to see one, not so soon, given that while a lot of skill is involved,a lot there is an element of luck to finishing this level too.

I would post a demo, but no one wants to see lots of saves and reloads in a single level. :P

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One things for sure- fatcubuses give lots of cover :)

You can probably try to purposely stand on a manc carcass as much as possible (since it can't be resurrected if you stand on it). It helps to know about arch infighting behavior- they don't hold 'grudges'. Like as soon as anyone hits them, they immediately aim at the attacker. Thus, if an arch is between you and a shooting chaingunner, you can pretty safely shoot the arch, knowing that the rapid chaingun bullets will likely cause the arch to re-aim at the chaingunner instead of you.

I almost always play with no music, since, while it adds to the atmosphere it reduces your ability to concentrate on skill a tad. I use keyboard only so only assume a mouse would allow good or better maneuverability in confined areas.

I'd enjoy watching any failed or successful demos.

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gggmork said:

One things for sure- fatcubuses give lots of cover :)

You can probably try to purposely stand on a manc carcass as much as possible (since it can't be resurrected if you stand on it). It helps to know about arch infighting behavior- they don't hold 'grudges'. Like as soon as anyone hits them, they immediately aim at the attacker. Thus, if an arch is between you and a shooting chaingunner, you can pretty safely shoot the arch, knowing that the rapid chaingun bullets will likely cause the arch to re-aim at the chaingunner instead of you.


I know about standing on monster corpses. But i didn't realise that archs woud re target other monsters that quickly. Good to know.

I almost always play with no music, since, while it adds to the atmosphere it reduces your ability to concentrate on skill a tad.


Same.

I use keyboard only so only assume a mouse would allow good or better maneuverability in confined areas.


From watching your demo, it seems to me that there may not be that much difference between mouse and keyboard in such a tight situation


I'd enjoy watching any failed or successful demos.


Heh. I'll take that as an invitation. Though don't hold your breath. It may take me a while to get past those first two mancs. :)

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gggmork isn't the only one who's finished this map without saving. Was bored so I tried this map out.

Funny how it didn't take me that long to get a successful demo after doing a practice run. I think around 10 tries or so, if that.

Really, the very tough spots are the pistol duel with the twin mancubii and the first cyberdemon with only the SG. Requires quite a bit of concentration and some luck for things to go your way.

Everything went as well as they could have gone here. I didn't do the trick with having the chaingunner hit the archie in an attempt to hit me exactly the right way. Blame that on the fact I had a rather ugly headache as I was doing these attempts. Wasn't thinking clearly.

Ignore the 10 seconds at the very end where I look confused waiting for something to happen. In my practice run, I thought at first the invul I needed to not get myself killed by plowing through the voodoo dolls was given after hitting the switch to reach the exit. I didn't notice it was just lying right there next to the voodoo dolls. Go me.

Demo recorded with ZDoom 2.2.0.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/c01b0f

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Cool, a demo from a speedrunner. I guess the reason mousers are so fast is they can strafe-turn in perfect circles around an enemy constantly facing it. This has 2 speed advantages- running 'diagonally' with strafe is faster in doom's engine, and constantly facing an enemy means you can hold down fire while rarely missing or having to take a break to dodge (like you had a big gap of time left over after that first cyber compared to me). plus you can turn much faster with a mouse.

Its kinda silly that going fast requires running everywhere diagonally in doom- well not as silly as going YAHOOOOO YAHOOOOO YAHOOOOO everywhere in mario 64...

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I agree with Anima Zero - the first mancubi and cyberdemon fights are hardest. It took me about 5 tries to get past the mancubi, then I saved, then it took me about 5 tries to get past the cyberdemon, saved again, about three tries to get past the archviles. The first time I got past the archviles I survived through to the end. I won't try to survive the whole thing at a stretch though. That's really something.

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Here is a failed demo

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8zfgsu

Oh, I should mention that it is a ZDoom demo.

Something really interesting happened on one of the demos that i recorded. I was killed by a manc, but at the moment I died, a voodoo doll must have recieved a megasphere. So I was lying there dead, with 200 health and 200 armor, and the manc kept on shooting at me.

Wierdest thing ever.

I would post it, but, of all the hundred demos I recorded (mostly overwriting the previous one) it has totally vanished. which is odd, because it was the last demo i recorded. And it completely disappeared, even though it should have been the last demo...

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Heh, the arch resurrected a chaingunner on top of his head. Good job not getting hit by the cyber. Failed runs can be as fun to watch as successful ones.

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Just watched the demo from Anima Zero. Damn. Some people make it look easy. :(

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It feels like the traps in one of the maps I made (Sector 997), except taken to extremes. I like maps that place the player in a confined area with tough monsters, but this might be too much even for me. :P

I realize it's all possible, but it's still pretty boring to me. Pistol-whipping two mancubus takes forever, and so does shotgunning a cyberdemon to death.

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udderdude said:

(Sector 997)


Nice map, I like to spam demos so don't watch if you don't want to but here's a zdoom 2.2.0 uvmax (of whatever 'sector 997' version was on idgames).

http://www.sendspace.com/file/g8lg3u (you can prevent some enemies from warping (including beginning 2 viles) by covering their warp spot (which I did to the beginning demons), not that it matters)

also a bug I found by accident near the beginning lifts with imps- http://www.sendspace.com/file/jcj9qw

Its obviously more complex and deserving of a thread than this simple map I made. Kinda agree about it taking long/tedious, but would be more of a boring problem if it was pointlessly easy.

zdoom kinda feels 'slippery' like you're walking around on ice a bit compared to prboom, harder to dodge stuff.

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Tried your new map, it's definitely extremely tough. I'll see if I can get any better at it. It feels like random monster pathing can fuck you over pretty easily.

Thanks for the demo of my map, and I'm aware of the bug with the imps near the lift, I discovered it after I released it, though. I got a ton of bitching about it being too hard, not sure about long/tedious.

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oops, I wasn't referring to your map as long/tedious. I was just agreeing with your previous statement that pistol whipping a mancubus in my previous (bbb.wad) map was kinda long/tedious (but would be more so if it was easy).

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gggmork said:

oops, I wasn't referring to your map as long/tedious. I was just agreeing with your previous statement that pistol whipping a mancubus in my previous (bbb.wad) map was kinda long/tedious (but would be more so if it was easy).


Well, one thing I've learned from making maps and developing my own games from scratch, and also playing a lot of extremely difficult arcade shmups, is that it's really hard to make something that's challenging but at the same time fun. Something that's challenging isn't nessecarily good just because it's hard. It has to be entertaining once you get the hang of it as well.

I can tell you like maps that are all about the challenge (your latest map is pretty much the same room copy-pasted several times in a circle with a big middle area), but I'd like to see you try and make a full-length map. You can make things more interesting, trust me.

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That was really hard, but I finally beat ccc.wad (boom, complevel 9):
http://www.sendspace.com/file/yhi2a6
At first I thought there wouldn't be enough bfg ammo, but it works if you keep running around the loop to stock up. Played cautious at the end due to rarely getting that far.

'Something that's challenging isn't necessarily good just because it's hard'
I agree but its based on opinion and I honestly thought ccc was quite fun (at least the first part before the central switch). I don't mind at all if others don't like it. I wanna be able to program my own games. Too bad I'm not a 1337 haxor, + lazy, but I've made some progress with lame little python programs at least.

'pretty much the same room copy-pasted several times in a circle'
Yeah, I'm a bipolar mapper. I tend to either care about gameplay exclusively or visual weirdness/detail/interesting things exclusively. Pasting is a convenient way to reduce mapping work when I only care about the former (I'd rather hammer out multiple maps to evolve a niche of what I like rather than spend forever on one map, plus I like short maps when they're difficult (or die/restarting forces cautious playing)).
It was fairly simple and quickly made (kinda a small experiment in confinement + enemy count, because maps like holyhell where you have tons of roaming room are kinda easy/tedious to me (the hard thing is the length)). And confinement allows you to have a variety of monsters walking around without all the far away ones infighting themselves to death since walls block them from seeing/shooting you/eachother.

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I just watched the demo for ccc.wad. Looks pretty cool. Though I won't have a shot at it myself til I finish the claus playtesting. But soon I will have a good playthrough of this level. Just watching the demo, it doesn't look as hard as bbb.wad. But looks can be deceiving sometimes. :)

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Heya gggmork.

ccc.wad. I have been playing it heaps over the last week or so. It has so grown on me. Recorded lots of demos. None of them especially interesting.

This one is the best one. It is only short. I have got much further into the level than this, but this one is the most entertaining, imo.

It is for ZDoom btw. I'm gonna go back and see if I can beat this level, no saves. :) I will post a demo if I actually manage to finish it.

But don't hold your breath. Thanks for these levels dude. If nothing else, they are raising my skill level from the repeated playing. :)

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Heh heh, thanks for recording it (zdoom 2.2.0, I assume since it worked in there? each new zdoom version loses compatibility with previous demos).
Each next doughnut contains quite a lot more life, so constantly moving probably makes it much easier to continually stock up rather than be a sitting duck but not really sure. The hardest part for me was the lowering bfg/cyber platforms. I didn't really like the whole end of the level.
I remember reading you had a particularly weird keyboard &/or mouse setup in some thread but forgot what exactly.

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