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Chex Warrior

Mouse Look: Do you use it?

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I use mouselook always except for doom2.wad/map30 and doom2.wad/map06 during yellow key quiet grab

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The Ultimate DooMer said:

I wonder if he plays with a resolution greater than 320x200 too...


I am above 320x200, but most times I still use software rendering in 8 bit color mode ;-)

Doc Faust

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Yes.

In map30-schemes I however tend to take the lift and only aim horizontally, doing it "properly".

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Graf Zahl said:

Sure I use mouselook, especially to quickly end Icon of Sin levels. :D


Actually thats the only reason I'd ever use it.

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DuckReconMajor said:

Truly hardcore Doom players play with mouselook and autoaim off.

Truly hardcore Doomers play the original exe in a DOS environment.

Anything else, anything else deviates from the "purity" of the Doom experience. :P
No Mlook, but using a source port - any source port? Not pure!



Not aimed at DuckReconMajor per se.
All this talk about "the way it is meant to be" and playing it "hardcore" or "pure" that is common around here is a pile of bollocks. Self delusional bollocks at that. The proportion of people who play the original exe most of the time is really small. Yet there are constantly people on here saying how they play the way Doom "is meant to be played" - despite the fact that actually only means they play by a set of rules that they feel are right for them. They should just take that stick out of their arse and get over themselves. They are not hardcore, they are not purists, they are not playing "the way it was meant to be played". There is no "way it was meant to be played". They are just playing. How the hell do people know what the way Doom was meant to be is anyway? I'm damned sure id didn't issue a bunch of strict guidelines about the one true way to play Doom.

Doom is not just about the original exe anymore. It hasn't been for years. Doom is about all the different ways to play that are available these days.

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DuckReconMajor said:

Truly hardcore Doom players play with mouselook and autoaim off.


Now that would be truly hardcore, indeed ;-)

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Enjay said:

Truly hardcore Doomers play the original exe in a DOS environment.

Anything else, anything else deviates from the "purity" of the Doom experience. :P
No Mlook, but using a source port - any source port? Not pure!



Not aimed at DuckReconMajor per se.
All this talk about "the way it is meant to be" and playing it "hardcore" or "pure" that is common around here is a pile of bollocks. Self delusional bollocks at that. The proportion of people who play the original exe most of the time is really small. Yet there are constantly people on here saying how they play the way Doom "is meant to be played" - despite the fact that actually only means they play by a set of rules that they feel are right for them. They should just take that stick out of their arse and get over themselves. They are not hardcore, they are not purists, they are not playing "the way it was meant to be played". There is no "way it was meant to be played". They are just playing. How the hell do people know what the way Doom was meant to be is anyway? I'm damned sure id didn't issue a bunch of strict guidelines about the one true way to play Doom.

Doom is not just about the original exe anymore. It hasn't been for years. Doom is about all the different ways to play that are available these days.

That may be, but if you reread what you quoted you might find he was being facetious ;)

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That's actually why I quoted him rather than anyone else who might actually be saying something similar and meaning it. I don't particularly want to get into a shouting match with anyone over something as silly as this and some people do take this stuff way to seriously, bashing the Doom Bible like a puritan at a witch hunt (but with an alternative book that has a similar name). ;)

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It doesn't matter who you quoted; you did what you're now criticizing, and you ridiculed a stance (purism) that is perfectly valid as long as it's not preached or forced on others, and then went on to say things are the way you like them instead (all about variety). The game is about what each person thinks it is, which may be exclusive or inclusive depending on that person's tastes. It's perfectly fine to stick to only old or new school as long as you have respect for anyone who does something else (short of them specifically stepping on your toes in some situation).

The game wasn't "meant to be" anything. The id guys may have tried things that simply weren't possible back in '93, DOOM has always been moddable and the source was released so mods could be made. I'm a "purist" and can see how "it was meant to be" is annoying, as it just seems to imply that people who play a modded version are doing something wrong. Intelligent purism is more about "this mode of play is fun so I see no reason to change it" (pure) and "this mode of play is consistent with a ton of, often competitive, play through the years" (hardcore), but trying to curtail, or fearing, modified versions or playing just shows a lack of confidence in this.

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myk said:

It doesn't matter who you quoted; you did what you're now criticizing, and you ridiculed a stance (purism) that is perfectly valid as long as it's not preached or forced on others, and then went on to say things are the way you like them instead.

I agree with this. However, even without knowing it, many of these "purists" often seem to hold themselves higher than the rest of us who want to take Doom to a higher level than was previously possible. Some seem to put us in with those kids who can't live without jumping or looking up and down, but seem to forget that if we were like them we wouldn't be playing classic Doom to begin with.

There's nothing wrong with the purist philosophy, in my opinion. I like to do it sometimes, just to pretend I'm some guy in 1993, playing this revolutionary game, amazed at what technology is capable of. Another valid point is that sometimes, most notably map30, the game's challenges were based around its own limitations, and modern features destroy the principle behind the whole thing.

However, that doesn't mean that it was "the way Doom is supposed to be." After all, though many argue that it's not technically a 3D game, I'm sure it was certainly meant to be one. Just look at Carmack's message in the README that comes with the Doom source code. He was excited that these things could be done with the engine, not resentful that people were going to make it different. And it's that attitude that led to the wad/engine format, and all of the other things id did to make Doom the customizable masterpiece it is today.

Edit: Now that myk has edited his post I'd like to say that if more purists were like you there wouldn't be so many arguments like this.

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Enjay said:

I don't particularly want to get into a shouting match with anyone over something as silly as this and some people do take this stuff way to seriously, bashing the Doom Bible like a puritan at a witch hunt (but with an alternative book that has a similar name). ;)


Hi Enjay and all,

I was not planing to go into a shouting match and I wonder why so many people take my first posting way too seriously. The tread topic was a specific question about individual preferences, and I gave a concise answer. Other people have different preferences. So nobody should burn anybody at the stake because of that. I'll go to hell anyway because back in 1994, my first installation of doom had been an unauthorized copy. Until that day I must not use mouselook for remission of my sins.

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myk said:

It doesn't matter who you quoted; you did what you're now criticizing, and you ridiculed a stance (purism) that is perfectly valid as long as it's not preached or forced on others, and then went on to say things are the way you like them instead (all about variety). The game is about what each person thinks it is, which may be exclusive or inclusive depending on that person's tastes. It's perfectly fine to stick to only old or new school as long as you have respect for anyone who does something else (short of them specifically stepping on your toes in some situation).

Actually, I don't think that I did particularly do what I was criticising. Or, if I did, it wasn't intentional. My point was more that there are a lot of people here who shout about purism and tell us all about how Doom was meant to be played. This does come across as an arrogant stance that has a preaching tone and one which does carry an implication that anyone other than the purists are doing something wrong.

I did say that "Doom is about all the different ways to play that are available these days" and I would absolutely include the "purist" viewpoint in that. I'm not a "purist" but I have no problem with other people being so. What I do have a problem with is being told by them, implicitly or explicitly, that their way is the only correct way to play and mine is somehow wrong.

My additional point was that the ultimate purism of only playing the original exe is not observed by most people (due to hardware restrictions, choice or whatever) and so people who do argue about purism are often not actually playing in the purist of pure ways themselves. So, despite the fact that they will tell me, or anyone who is prepared to listen, about the pure way to play, they too have made changes in the way they play compared to what the most "pure" of us may decree as being "the way it was meant to be played". To be fair, even the term "purist" carries an implication because, presumably, anything else is impure.

Personally, I don't care how anyone plays the game (why should I?) but it does get annoying to hear people making comments like "I play the way Doom was meant to be". When it is done tongue in cheek, then it's fine. However, it is - it would seem, all too often done as part of a bullish stance to try and reinforce the "purist" way of playing as the only proper way to play. This has been something that, in my perception, has been said louder and louder by a significant minority of people. Because they are such a vocal minority, according to what I have read elsewhere, it is giving Doomworld a reputation as a bit of a bastion of prickly, aggressive people who champion the cause of vanilla-like gameplay and who are not open to other ways of playing. However, the reality of that is clearly not the case as there are a large number of people here who enjoy all sorts of playing.

myk said:

The game wasn't "meant to be" anything. The id guys may have tried things that simply weren't possible back in '93, DOOM has always been moddable and the source was released so mods could be made. I'm a "purist" and can see how "it was meant to be" is annoying, as it just seems to imply that people who play a modded version are doing something wrong. Intelligent purism is more about "this mode of play is fun so I see no reason to change it" (pure) and "this mode of play is consistent with a ton of, often competitive, play through the years" (hardcore), but trying to curtail, or fearing, modified versions or playing just shows a lack of confidence in this.


And that, if you change "I'm a "purist"" to "I'm not a "purist"" (and tweak another couple of words to come into line with that) is actually pretty close to a lot of what I was trying to say. The way we like to play, and our enjoyment of Doom are clearly underpinned by different things but, it would seem, that we are actually quite close on the main point that I was trying to make.

This part is interesting:

"this mode of play is fun so I see no reason to change it"

To me, I would happily say "this mode of play is fun but I'd like to see if changing it to something else can be fun too". If a change doesn't work, the old way hasn't gone anywhere, so I've lost nothing.

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Doctor Faust said:

Hi Enjay and all,

I was not planing to go into a shouting match and I wonder why so many people take my first posting way too seriously.


Your original question was a fair enough and interesting one. As soon as I saw it, I did expect people to start taking stances and taking it too seriously though. It just happens with these kind of topics. I was, in fact, quite pleased and surprised that the majority of posts were just expressing a preference with reasoned argument. I guess that I, as much as anyone, did turn up the heat a little. :/

Soz.

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Enjay said:
My point was more that there are a lot of people here who shout about purism and tell us all about how Doom was meant to be played. This does come across as an arrogant stance that has a preaching tone and one which does carry an implication that anyone other than the purists are doing something wrong.

If there are some I fail to see how they're more than, or more abusive than, the ones that push the other way. I'm not saying they're less so, either. What are you comparing this bias to, some site which is based about a new port which has little to do with purism? Shouldn't you expect to find purists here on Doomworld instead? You'll always have some comment that comes out more or less dickheaded about preferences, which could be harmless in a private situation where most people agree, but may cause an argument in a more varied place.

I did say that "Doom is about all the different ways to play that are available these days" and I would absolutely include the "purist" viewpoint in that.

Note my clarification, because otherwise you can also get those who preach against people who choose (either) "extreme". The moderates can also discriminate. "I play everything, I'm better than you. My port runs everything, it's better than yours".

What I do have a problem with is being told by them, implicitly or explicitly, that their way is the only correct way to play and mine is somehow wrong.

It's best to be specific about this subject, which is touchy, not generic or preemptive (which will generate knee jerk reactions from the other side). Let's address what people are doing in particular, not vaguely what they supposedly tend to do.

To be fair, even the term "purist" carries an implication because, presumably, anything else is impure.

Lemonade is impure because it's got lemon and sugar in the water... so? Most people tend to name their preferences in a descriptive but appealing manner, since they like the stuff. Purists can't be blamed for liking the simplicity and "originalness" of the stuff they stick to. You could say that any mention of improvements in source ports is equally preachy, offensive, or brusque :p

Not that the purists necessarily named themselves, as this aspect of the term, which you mention, can be used rhetorically against them. The term is often used in a derogative way.

(why should I?)

Some may be tempted because they don't want to be left alone as a stranger that's the only one, or one of the few, that plays like they do. The line between "I'm simply stating my preference" and "I'm trying to get you to share it" aren't always clear, anyway.

This has been something that, in my perception, has been said louder and louder by a significant minority of people. Because they are such a vocal minority, according to what I have read elsewhere, it is giving Doomworld a reputation as a bit of a bastion of prickly, aggressive people who champion the cause of vanilla-like gameplay and who are not open to other ways of playing. However, the reality of that is clearly not the case as there are a large number of people here who enjoy all sorts of playing.

Might it not be that these people are frustrated that they couldn't impose their own perspective in this more varied or general place? Personally, and being a mod and all, I've often argued the importance of vanilla, but do you see me making snide remarks about people who think differently? I even help people making advanced mods or the like, and don't like to see something get attacked because it's different, so who are these people shouting for purism?

If a change doesn't work, the old way hasn't gone anywhere, so I've lost nothing.

It hasn't gone anywhere especially due to the work of people making it possible in different ways; players playing a lot of classic stuff, the presence of purists in multiplayer, new vanilla WADs of quality, PrBoom/+'s compatibilities, Chocolate Doom, DOSBox, amassed information about the game "as is", and so on. You can thank the crazy old schoolers that stuff is still there in a usable and attractive way, as well as they can thank the crazy new schoolers that there are new DOOM-related things to try.

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Truly hardcore DooMers use a joystick instead of a mouse and - having memorised the maps - play with their monitor switched off, relying on auditory cues to locate their enemies and the exit. :-)

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myk said:
USING THE MOUSE AND USING MOUSELOOK


I’m neither using the mouse nor mouselook, Doom is the only FPS I play with the keyboard only. Yes, I play Heretic with the mouse and mouselook.

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I leave autoaim on. I just think doom is more fun this way. only time I use mouselook is in DM on levels with lots of height variation when I want to make some well placed rockets. I use the button that invokes it, then hit center screen again, as I prefer no mouselook in general. Mouselooking rockets is very effective tho.

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Whoa...

I was just wondering if people in the community used mouselook or not. I wasn't trying to start a riot.

I figured if using mouselook makes Doom fun then you should use it. If it doesn't then don't use it.

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Hellbent said:
I use the button that invokes it, then hit center screen again, as I prefer no mouselook in general.

Yeah, something like these aliases:

Name=flook1
Command=set freelook 1; crosshair 7
Name=flook0
Command=set freelook 0; centerview; crosshair 0

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Chex Warrior said:

Whoa...

I was just wondering if people in the community used mouselook or not. I wasn't trying to start a riot.

I figured if using mouselook makes Doom fun then you should use it. If it doesn't then don't use it.


In the world of doom all threads derail into a broader range of topic discussion. Rarely will you see a thread here get less than 5 replies as there's always someone who tries to interpret the "big picture" of what the initial intent of the thread was.

But like doomworld, I digress.

EDIT: I would like to say that I do like mouse aim in some respect, especially for deathmatch which can be a little cumbersome with the fast-moving enemies, but typically I use the keyboard against monsters (and DM bots) to give myself a little handicap for them.

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JohnnyRancid said:

typically I use the keyboard against monsters (and DM bots) to give myself a little handicap for them.

Aww, you're so sweet :)

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Morpheus said:

Mouse sucks. =P

As a mapper, i use it, otherwise it'd be impossible for me.


Hwaet?! REAL HARDCORE Mappers use only DEU in DOSBOX and just with the keyboard!!! YOU SUCK!!!11!!

J/K :-p

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since someone mentioned immersion, yes, being able to mouselook at whatever i want makes a game more immersive to me. but lately, especially after watching a lot of demos i found classic play interesting again, mostly because of the more stable, fluid movement (there's less jerking around than with mlook)

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I like using mouselook, but I disable it when playing WADs that weren't designed with it in mind. I hate having to look using the keyboard in vanilla Heretic/Hexen/Strife, but I just play those like vanilla Doom and don't bother looking up/down.

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The attitude that playing with mouselook isn't Doom anymore bothers me. Every source port changes things. Even Chocolate Doom changes a few things. Where do we draw the line on what's Doom or what's not? If you're going to go that route, you might as well just say that only Doom.exe is doom anymore, and all source ports are no longer Doom.

Edit: Forgot to answer the topic.

When I first played Doom, I used keyboard only. When I first got into source ports recently, I started with GZDoom and PrBoom+ and used mouselook. I've started to use just the keyboard again, though with a modified setup (WASD for movement, arrow keys for turning). Not sure why. I've actually found keyboard + autoaim to be easier than mouselook in many cases, when you've got an enemy at the top of an elevator or something. Without autoaim, you can't hit him, but he can still hit you.

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raptir said:

Where do we draw the line on what's Doom or what's not?

It's up to you. The idea that everyone has to draw the same line is what starts these aggressive debates in the first place.

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GreyGhost said:

Truly hardcore DooMers use a joystick instead of a mouse and - having memorised the maps - play with their monitor switched off, relying on auditory cues to locate their enemies and the exit. :-)



What skill level do they play at? LOL.

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GreyGhost said:

Truly hardcore DooMers use a joystick instead of a mouse and - having memorised the maps - play with their monitor switched off, relying on auditory cues to locate their enemies and the exit. :-)


AUDITORY CUES? WTF?

REAL doomers use smell. Also by knowing their mouse and keyboards.

On topic, I went through a couple of years where i mouselooked up/down and used a crosshair for everything. (2003 and 2004) which was the first couple of years that I got back into playing Doom. But i moved away from that, I only really play now with what was possible in vanilla (mouse on x axis and keyboard controls) It simply feels much more authentic, even though I use ports such as PrBoom and ZDoom all the time. (Chocolate sometimes also)

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