OBLIGE 3.39 Released

[DuckReconMajor]

Kappes Buur said:

It's okay. I regard a 640 pixels wide image as a minimum.

i.e.: The native resolution of my monitor is 1680 x 1050, which is a bit too large for a post. So I reduce that to 60%, which results in an image of 1008 x 630. Then I reduce that to 20% for the thumbnail image.

As to the visibility, it's good.
Most people post images which are way too dark. If I feel the need to view such an image, I copy it to the clipboard and increase the gamma to suit.

Mine's 1680x1050 too, I just thought that was too big. I'll take a native one next time. And yes, I admit, it is pretty dark. I'll increase gamma next time.

I can retake it if you want, but if you don't think this view is that great I won't bother.

[Tormentor667]

PRetty impressive what this program is capable of O_o

[Reisal]

@T667:

Indeed it is, that it will improve over time (IE traps, more game support, modules, rest of themes) since at the moment Ajapted deserves a well-deserved break for all the hard work he has put into v3 so far, expect nothing new for a couple of weeks.

[lzvk25]

Mr. Chris said:

Yes, you can! For now, direct doom1.lua editing would do until the module specifications are implemented. For now, just use the links at the bottom of this post for maximum gameplay and carnage. Hordes or More monster amount is suggested.

There already is a Skulltag monsters and weapons module in the directory but it's not all ready yet (but you can add them in with clever cut/paste into the right sections of doom1.lua like I have)

I also have added about 20-22 DECORATE monsters that Oblige places properly and it's a bit chaotic at times.

**Note this is for Skulltag ONLY! If you want to use it with ZDoom, you must comment out the Skulltag exclusive weapons, armor and monsters manually with a double minus in front of the entries**

The crap I added (Thanks Realm667 beastiary!) are below:
The LUA file. Goes in /games directory.
The contents for the LUA file. Must load if you make a wad/megawad with the above file!

Mediafire mirror for ob3_modding.zip
Mediafire mirror for ~Random.zip

Rapidshare mirror for ob3_modding.zip
Rapidshare mirror for ~Random.zip

Sorry for my ignorance, but could you please give us more detailed instructions ?

Where do I put the file "~Random.pk3" ? How Oblige will know what extra file to load ?

Right now, Oblige only supports DOOM 2, so, what about the file "doom1.lua", so, what do we need to do so Oblige will recognize this "doom1.lua" ?

Please let us know... :(

[Kappes Buur]

It's really quite simple.

1. As mentioned, extract ob3_modding.zip and copy doom1.lua into the /games directory, replacing the original file
2. Have OBLIGE build the level
3. Load both, the level and ~Random.zip into Skulltag

[lzvk25]

Thanks, now it is working. Just one little note, I had to use ~Random.pk3, ~Random.zip contains ~Random.pk3 and Skulltag can't uncompress twice. Obviously with ~Random.zip I only get those infamous red squares with the "!". :)

Also selecting the engine option as "BOOM Compat" gives better results.

Thanks.

[Reisal]

Using "BOOM Compat" nullifies the small dehacked file inside the PK3...I don't know WHY it does because the one Oblige makes only alteres mapnames.

You should be loading ~random.pk3 WITH the generated map Oblige creates.

The modified LUA contains Skulltag monsters in case you didn't know and don't exist in standard ZDoom.

[lzvk25]

So, which option do you recommend us to chose ?

So far, I can get several monsters from the bestiary in my wad file like the plasmaguy, rocketguy, afrit, etc.

Although, the bigger monsters like the cybruiser, diabloist, tornado, etc., never appear, curiously, according to the new doom1.lua file, only the monsters with a low "id" appear but the ones with a high "id" never. If it is possible, could you please tell us what do we need to do in order to get those bigger mosters, at least to appear more frequently ? Obviously, this could be in regard to add more monsters from the bestiary and possibly remove all the regular doom monsters since we have already seen them too much.

Thanks

[Reisal]

Just use "Limit removing" option.

It's likely the probability that isn't making them show up as often as I have seen the tornado demon but not the other two (diab's prob is 5 since it's a powerful monster in regards to its attack moves, cybruiser's is 15 and tornado's is 7. Most customs have a probability of 20-30 which can be changed if you open doom1.lua and search for COMMON_MONSTERS and DOOM2_MONSTERS strings)

If you remove the standard zombies, where would the player replenish ammo other than the boxes of it placed by the program?

[Gez]

Mr. Chris said:

The modified LUA contains Skulltag monsters in case you didn't know and don't exist in standard ZDoom.

Note that it would be quite simple to put them all in a wad. Many of them are already present on the "Beastiary". For the rest, the DECORATE code for all Skulltag monsters and weapons can be found here, and only the grenade launcher can't be replicated in ZDoom. The sprites, sounds, SNDINFO and GLDEFS entries can be copied from Skulltag.wad/pk3.

[Reisal]

In case Andrew drops back to check this thread..I've found a glitch I've discussed before similar to the intersecting ceiling lights with light effects and lifts problem...this also affects the key pedestals and I assume it will affect the weapon pedestals that lower down. This is a problem with keys especially if the part that does not lower and keeps the key up, forcing one to use noclip to grab the item.


This occurance should be extremely rare until the next release of Oblige.

[Reisal]

Hey JohnnyRancid, have you considered using DoomWord in place of the custom words used in level name generation for Oblige since they look just like the words used in the IWAD?

[andrewj]

Hi everyone

Cheers for all your supportive comments! I was totally burnt out and depressed after the release, it was probably too early and lacking too many things, but I'm OK now and will definitely get back to working on OBLIGE sooner or later, since the itch / interest is still there to see just what is possible with a random map generator. Knowing other people find it interesting and enjoyable too is also a big motivator to keep working on it.

Some replies now (more later) :-

@david_a: I think 5 digits is about the limit of "comfort" when it comes to remembering, writing down, telling other people (etc) a seed number. While also giving a huge number of distinct levels (300000 or so). Plus every new release makes the seeds produce different levels. Hence I don't plan to make it any more complicated than that.

I know that newer Windows OSes are getting like Linux OSes where parts of the application data get spread around the FS (like user specific config files). Personally I don't like that model for smallish third-party applications, prefering the MacOSX espoused (but afaik not often followed in practice) model of the "self contained" application. I think that model has been working OK so far and hence will continue using it.

@TomoAlien: LOL at making a music generator! You may know that David Chess (author of SLIGE) was interested in (and worked on) random music generation. I could see myself getting interested in and having fun with that kind of thing, some of the scientific papers out there are hilariously stupid in their approaches.

RE: non-working lifts and key pedestals
That's a serious bug and I'll address it as soon as I can. It is caused by the fact that a ceiling light with a special type "steals" both the sector type AND tag, disabling floor movers which needed the tag.

[40oz]

Mr. Chris said:

Hey JohnnyRancid, have you considered using DoomWord in place of the custom words used in level name generation for Oblige since they look just like the words used in the IWAD?

I was wondering about that. I may just be blind but I don't know if it's possible to change the font of the text. I was planning on doing that. Am I mistaken or did the pre-beta release have the whole font in a single image? I feel like i came across it once and planned to replace it later but now I can't find it.

[Squishybrick]

Alright! I ca't wait for the new version buddy, keep up the good work and make those new features functional! :)

[Dittohead]

Hey Ajapted,

Nice to see you're still working on this project! It looks very promising and I'm utterly impressed with how much you've done to make it a highly enjoyable map creator.

And thanks for including me in the thank you section :)

[Reisal]

For those who don't know..

Chris Pisarczyk = me

[Torn]

Wow, this program is so much better than slige. Some of these maps it generates, they kinda inspires me to do some real maps. :P

Now we just need some other themes. :)

Edit: well I have one complain. If this is tech theme, why does the computer generate gstone switchs that open up doors with gstone boarders. Maybe you should change that to something more tech alike.

[andrewj]

Hey Dittohead, thanks, and eventually your prefabs will make it back into OB3 :)

@Torn: it uses GSTONE and WOOD because there is nothing else really techy that would stand out from normal walls. When Oblige can add custom textures properly, I'd like to make something better (e.g. green circuitry).

@JohnnyRancid: feel free to improve the name generator, note too that you could add new classes of words (there is nothing special about 'a' 'b' 'n' etc), so you could implement e.g. the "X of Y" pattern which is found in the other themes. Anyway, send me the improvements when you're ready.

Wishlist replies:

boss arenas: anyone who wants to make a MAP07/MAP30/E1M8 (etc) map: please do, but it should be as basic as possible (just the arena, NOT like the MAP30 in freedoom where you must complete a large normal map before getting to the boss battle).

other boss battle maps: Hmmmm, not a bad idea but I think the concept of the big bosses (Cybies or Masterminds) sitting on a key (etc) works better as a feature of normal maps -- in fact that is exactly how I'd prefer to put those monsters into normal maps (creating a "mega" battle), rather than scatter them randomly about.

Map names that match or influence the level would be cool, but I'm not sure how to do it. One idea was to look for words in the generator name (e.g. "lava") and their presence triggers certain styles (using lava as the liquid).

Run across damaging floors -- good idea.
Moating patterns -- yeah screenshot or mockup needed :-)

Switches in walls will come as more prefabs are (re)implemented.

I don't plan to add any more control over themes than the current "Theme" selection button. For DOOM there will probably only be three themes anyway (TECH, URBAN, HELL) and so each one will get used for a whole episode in a megawad. Sub-dividing those themes would make the levels too bland I think.

BTW I don't understand this one: "Use the maximum amount of ammo and health the player can have as a factor for ammo and health placement".

Oh yeah (still reading this?), the font is hard-coded into the Oblige EXE. I could add another one or two there, but it needs to be: fixed width, similar in size (9x16), and freely usable (public domain or GPL).

[Torn]

I have some other minor things.

Tech stuff like compsta in nukage "holes" and bassins is weird, but not really that much of a problem.
The screenshot shows the problem.


Maybe some bigger monsters include as well in the levels as an optical option or something? (yeah, cybie and big spider) :P
This is also one of the options I think slige lacked really...

[Reisal]

Torn: I believe those minor comp station quirks will be optimized/fixed since panels above nukage/lava pits looks a little silly, unless there is solid ground/walkway to them.

I think I may give the E1M8 boss level a try.

[40oz]

Torn said:

I have some other minor things.

Tech stuff like compsta in nukage "holes" and bassins is weird, but not really that much of a problem.

Granted it's weird but I still think it's okay. I'd rather it be there than nothing at all. There are a lot of good mappers that do weird stuff like that. Sometimes people put computer panels and stuff engraved in the ceilings, and worse yet have computer monitors that are fitted into corners so the screen has a 90 degree angle bend in it.

I say don't fix that.

[Reisal]

I've sent an E1M8 replacement and also did E2M8 a short while ago, email me if you wish to see the E2M8 replacement I made. :-)

If you would like me to do E3M8 and E4M8, just ask and I'll see what I can whip up. E4M8 is a spiderdemon battle, but is it possible to use a cyberdemon in her place?

[40oz]

Ajapted said:

boss arenas: anyone who wants to make a MAP07/MAP30/E1M8 (etc) map: please do,

Will do!

Ajapted said:

other boss battle maps: Hmmmm, not a bad idea but I think the concept of the big bosses (Cybies or Masterminds) sitting on a key (etc) works better as a feature of normal maps -- in fact that is exactly how I'd prefer to put those monsters into normal maps (creating a "mega" battle), rather than scatter them randomly about.

While I agree with that wholeheartedly, I still think Oblige could do with more short simple but difficult "Dead Simple" styled levels. Such as "Siege" from HR and HR2. It's kinda like a comic relief from a tragic play. I think Oblige needs a break once in a while from long journeys and elaborate maps, and just throw in some quick frenzies as filler maps every 3-8 maps.

Ajapted said:

Moating patterns -- yeah screenshot or mockup needed :-)

I think borders was the word I was thinking of. See the walls in this screenshot.

Ajapted said:

I don't plan to add any more control over themes than the current "Theme" selection button. For DOOM there will probably only be three themes anyway (TECH, URBAN, HELL) and so each one will get used for a whole episode in a megawad. Sub-dividing those themes would make the levels too bland I think.

Well if you aren't gonna do that, can you at least make it so that those 3 themes are the default, and that later releases will allow for additional themes to be added by the user? I'd like to play around with the themes myself and get Oblige to create more specific maps and episodes. Similar to Scythe 2's varied episode themes.

Ajapted said:

BTW I don't understand this one: "Use the maximum amount of ammo and health the player can have as a factor for ammo and health placement".

I don't think oblige takes into account the maximum number of bullets or cells the player can carry at a time, so it will throw 5 or 6 bullet boxes in a single room, even though 4 boxes will reach the maximum of 200 as it is, so that in order to utilize the ammo in the room, the player will have to use what he/she picked up, then come back for it later. (Backpack ommitted)

Ajapted said:

Oh yeah (still reading this?), the font is hard-coded into the Oblige EXE. I could add another one or two there, but it needs to be: fixed width, similar in size (9x16), and freely usable (public domain or GPL).

The original doom font has varying sizes, but generally most letters are 16x12. Are those freely usable?

[Gez]

Mr. Chris said:

I've sent an E1M8 replacement and also did E2M8 a short while ago, email me if you wish to see the E2M8 replacement I made. :-)

If you would like me to do E3M8 and E4M8, just ask and I'll see what I can whip up. E4M8 is a spiderdemon battle, but is it possible to use a cyberdemon in her place?

Use E4M6 if you want a cyberdemon arena. E4M8 only works with spiders.

See full technical information here.

[Reisal]

When I get around to it, I'll just use a spiderdemon for E4M8.

[andrewj]

JohnnyRancid said: (regarding boss battles)
While I agree with that wholeheartedly, I still think Oblige could do with more short simple but difficult "Dead Simple" styled levels.

I actually like the idea, especially to break up a DOOM 2 megawad. Perhaps do it at MAP16 and MAP24.

(regarding themes)
When the module system is complete, it will allow people to customise many aspects of built levels, including themes, by writing a new module.

(re: font)
The DOOM font is copyrighted material, so I cannot use it. Also it is quite wide, generated names can get quite long (e.g. 28 characters) and would not fit on the screen (28*16 = 448, screen = 320). That's why I want the font to be 9-10 pixels wide.

(re: borders)
Nice screenshot, I'll try emulating that sometime.

(re: ammo)
If Oblige calculates you need 600 bullets to kill the monsters in a room, then that ammo has to be placed somewhere, right? At the moment some is placed in the same room, some in previous rooms, and some in dead-end "storage" rooms. What else could be done??

[Reisal]

I could also give MAP07 a try, with both Mancubi and Arachnotrons used. Well, later I could but I would like to mess around with the Doom 1 boss levels first.

I do have an idea for the boss maps..if a few people contribute to those levels, perhaps the mapgen could choose which one it uses each time a megawad/episode is made, with the option of it being skinned (texture replacements) via LUA code?

[Reisal]

So far, the three orginal episode's boss levels have been done, now only to send E3M8 to Andrew.

Speaking of the "Mix it up" for level size, small and regular should dominate the choices while tossing the occasional large level..but that's just my opinion. Something like 45% small, 35% regular and 20% large. I'm just saying this because sometimes the large levels, especially outdoor dominated ones, could take a long time (40 minutes or longer, depending on monster count) to complete. :)

[40oz]

True. If you make a megawad that's strictly large levels it will probably take you a week to beat the whole thing. But I suppose if you like oblige enough, that's not such a bad thing. Heh.

Ajapted said:

(re: ammo)
If Oblige calculates you need 600 bullets to kill the monsters in a room, then that ammo has to be placed somewhere, right? At the moment some is placed in the same room, some in previous rooms, and some in dead-end "storage" rooms. What else could be done??

I was about to suggest putting a different ammo type other than bullets such as shotgun shells or rockets when you need that many bullets, but the con to that is what if the player doesn't have a shotgun or rocket launcher at that point. I'm still trying to figure out why I'm so overloaded with ammo at just about all ammo settings though. Since oblige calculates the amount of ammo you need to kill the monsters in a room, and apparently gives you the amount of ammo based on which weapons you have at that point, does it give you the amount of ammo you'd need for all the weapons you have at that point? Like does it give me enough ammo to utilize one specific weapon through the entire map, no matter what it is? I just playtested a map and I had just barely enough shells for my shotgun, but by the time I got the plasma gun i decided to continue using my shotgun, and the amount of ammo I was getting for the shotgun was still pretty steady, but I was getting bombarded with cell packs as well. When I switched to using the Plasma Gun I found myself using up the cell packs but still there were plenty of shells to fill up my maximum carrying amount.