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Insane_Gazebo

Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

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The map 32 is absolutely gorgeous and deserves itself a cacoward , but damn sorry to say that but the labyrinth is horrible to beat. I didn't manage to survive the last fight. I will do it tomorrow. :)

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Those maps are all gorgeous and are a joy to look at. Unfortunately I am very, very, very bad at this kind of gameplay and thus, did not manage to get anywhere near Map 2 without cheats. I cheated my way through a couple of maps though, and it is truely mesmerizing what has been done with seemingly simple shapes and a couple of textures.

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I'ma just shamelessly self-promote :p .

 

 

 

Anyway, I do very much like what I'm seeing (and getting in my direction) contrary to my raging sometimes. It's gorgeous, atmospheric, and intense, just like Sunder was the last time I played it. The problem here is that yes, performance is really bad on MAP15 on very specific parts where it's basically unplayable, but otherwise it's solid so far.

 

Note though: Expect to hear lots of "fucks" after a certain point.

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I finish map 32 (the last fight) and I do a part of Map 16.

 

 

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The... Sunderian nightmare continues :D .

 

I hurt 'em plenty (funny, they hurt me too. A lot actually, enough to make me rage a bit after a while). Stuff is still solid, but like I said in the stream, I do believe the combat needed more variety in places. MAP15 took me almost 7 hours, and MAP16 supposedly can take over 6. Oh boy, looks like I'm gonna be busy for a while.

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Things are getting better and better :D . First 1000 enemies of MAP16.

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Man I love MAP16, thick atmosphere and I think it really nails the gameplay, compared to the lack of combat variety and grinding seen on MAP15 where the fights felt too samey. Kind of sets the standard in many ways regarding how the future maps should be like.

 

Damn good h8ZpNaM.png.

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7 hours ago, seed said:
Man I love MAP16, thick atmosphere and I think it really nails the gameplay, compared to the lack of combat variety and grinding seen on MAP15 where the fights felt too samey. Kind of sets the standard in many ways regarding how the future maps should be like.

 

Damn good h8ZpNaM.png.

 

As always, thank you for your playthroughs and feedback. I'll certainly comment regarding your own feedback a little later, I just don't like to give away too much.

 

Your stream also showed me a few minor bugs with Map 16. One missing texture, a misaligned switch and a stuck cyberdemon. (He was supposed to pop out during the first big caco fight.) Given the size of the level, I'm not surprised they got missed. (Most testers weren't willing to replay the map more than once, understandably.)

 

Also, thank you @Roofifor your own as well. I've had to use google translate a bit (on comments left in twitch chat) to understand what was going on, but it sounds like you were largely having fun.

 

Once I'm convinced there's nothing majorly wrong with Maps 31 and 32 I'll get a small update out to fix these issues, as well as that secret level skip in Map15. 

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Hi, I've been playing through map 32 and thought I'd add a bit of my own feedback. I've made it up to the hedge maze fight.

 

I think the map's too restrictive on backtracking. It seems to be one of those maps where you get cut off from going backwards every few sections, which is really too bad. Maybe this changes later, but comments I've read suggests it doesn't.

 

I really like the second battle in the map (the one for the BFG) because I feel there's two distinct ways to approach it. You can grab the BFG and get stuck in the area to clean it out aggressively, or fall back immediately and try to handle it with distance, infighting and what ammo you do have. Both approaches were enjoyable for me and I appreciated the choice getting the BFG poses, and the question of when you should grab it.

 

The giant battle in front of the manor's great. There's tons of space and angles to work with it, as well as plenty of different approaches to deal with the horde of demons. I had a blast playing with ways to manage that. That being said, I think it is short on health. Personally, I'd suggest adding a few medikits or a soulsphere by the third switch in the sequence (the one by the gate that you can see the red key through). This would also make going after the cybers atop the hill a little more viable for someone who didn't save an invulnerability or two for it.

 

Speaking of, I'm not sure if I had bad luck or not, but I didn't have a single cyber on that hill die from infighting. That made dealing with the cybers at the end tricky to say the least. I used them plenty to thin down the horde, so it wasn't for a lack of trying.

 

The hedge maze itself looks absolutely helllish. I haven't played it beyond a few half hearted attempts so far, but unless you can get vile jumped out of it altogether, it looks like a godawful slog of a fight. It's narrow, cramped, hard and frankly very easy to get cut off from supplies at the wrong time and die. It feels like you have to have an absolute grasp of it unless I'm missing a strategy or a trick. It's also the only part of the map I don't like from a gameplay viewpoint, as while I appreciate a change of pace, it feels too out of sync with the rest of the map thus far.

 

All of that's one thing and if it was fun, I'd still say it's fine. The problem is that it all comes together to be really unpleasant and unfun to play. I'd enjoyed the map greatly until then, thinking it was a 10/10 for sure, but that hedge maze is bad. God help whomever tries to UV-max that. I'll pick it up tonight and try to find a way through, but I'm not looking forward to it.

 

Relatedly, the little cacodemon/arachnotron/demon fight before the hedge maze was a nice and fairly easy change of pace after the giant battle before it. It felt too easy, but after the last fight, I think a cool down is fitting.

 

Edit because I forgot to mention it: Also, I haven't done much in the other maps, but 15/16 are occasionally getting crashes for me when I check the automap on them, especially if I gave myself a computer area map item. I'm on gzdoom 4.0, which on checking isn't current, so updating may fix that anyway. Mentioning it anyway, just in case it's helpful.

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Well, this was profoundly disappointing to be honest. One of my worst sessions in a loooong time unfortunately, barely did anything today :( , sorry everyone.

 

Took me an awful lot of time to realize the Cacodemon/PE area could be easily skipped, and after that I got tired and lost my focus. So, mostly raging and not much else to see today, as much as it sucks to say it...

 

But damn, what could I possibly miss in the circular room with the Barons? I pretty much gave up and postphoned it for a later time until I get an answer. I didn't see anything on the automap, and nothing else triggered after I killed the Barons, so I just warped to MAP31 instead but had to cut it short because real life happened, heh.

 

Again, sorry folks, will try to do better next time, but this time things took a turn for the worst.

Edited by seed

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Finished MAP16 and MAP31 :p .

 

Definitely a vast improvement from the past session imo, things went much better this time. I really liked MAP31, but having played magnolia first it felt a bit strange to me almost the whole time (if I didn't know it was made by you gazebo, I would have assumed it's a Ribbiks map by default lol). It was good stuff for sure, even though I have some mixed feelings about that section with all the pathways. Overall, I do believe MAP16 and 31 nailed, to varying degrees, how future maps should play like, mostly, but there's still plenty of room to innovate :) .

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It is done :D .

 

Phew MAP32 was a cruel beast on a few occasions (we all know which). But it's good stuff for sure, definitely looking forward to more maps in the future. More details in the videos. Hopefully everything that's important is there as I had to split the stream in 2 highlights, otherwise it would just give me an error and fail.

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On 6/19/2019 at 1:24 AM, Krull said:

Lots of cool and useful feedback.

 

Thanks for the bugs and other problems you found Krull. (As well as everyone else.) Lots of of the stuff you found were actually missed by me and the testers. I'll certainly consider using your recoloured textures for Python. Thanks for making them. As much as I do like the new colour, the 'toxic waste dump' feel you described does hold an appeal to me.

 

Other people in this thread including Seed and some others have found some other issues as well, and I've got a bunch of fixes incoming at some point:

Map 15 (I haven't done any of this yet because I'll need to get Ribbiks to rebuild the reject table... again):
- Block the Secret Exit shortcut (and make sure I actually did it properly this time!)

- Move the switch that lets you leave the cacodemon fight behind a proper barrier 

- Delete that scenery I'd forgotten about that I never used behind that other wall Krull pointed out, which will hopefully give me enough lines to fix the switch

- I'll probably re-texture some of those sky flats, they do look a little too strange given how the rest of the map turned out

- That little lower texture misalignment Krull spotted

 

That said, I have got some fixes done which include (Not sure when I'll have this all ready):

 

Map 16:

- Fixed the hard lock bug in the Baron room

- Fixed some misc texture issues including that badly misaligned switch

- Fixed a stuck cyberdemon in his little monster closet

- Found a small part at the start missing MB tags, fixed that (I have a feeling there might be more of these needed somewhere)

 

Map 31:

- Fixed some missing texture issues related to the floating cubes at the end

- Fixed some sky transfer issues also related to the cubes and some un-tagged surrounding sectors

- I am also currently planning to rebuild the outer 'hills' etc almost entirely. This was something I had been planning on doing for a while to fix up some of the issues Krull pointed out, but I was just working up the energy to do it.

 

Map 32 (just to be clear, Map32 was always supposed to be a bit obnoxious and over the top - but it's clear the hedge-maze might have been a bit too far in the obnoxious direction): 

- Fixed some chaingunners in a monster closet that were accidentally marked as deaf/ambush

- Fixed a soft lock behind the Cybie tree stump

- Re-balanced the hedge maze so you're less likely to save scum yourself into a corner (still debating on whether or not to change it being hidden on the auto map or not. I don't feel it's much of a maze if it isn't.) Lots more ammo, and an extra megasphere have been added, mostly around the fountain.

 

One last thing - I do have a copy of a reject table for Map 15 without the wall that Ribbiks built, somewhere. That said, the performance gain was negligible as far as I could tell. (And obviously useless for those who play in GZDoom). I'll upload that later so other curious people can have a play, and maybe someone more knowledgeable than me will spot something I missed. I'll edit this post a little later once I've found it.

 

Edit - Here's the Reject table without the wall in that Ribbiks sent me for those who want to have a play: https://www.dropbox.com/s/22subdty56f69fu/su15_MakeMeATable.zip?dl=0

Edited by Insane_Gazebo

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It's a delayed post. Can't say that I've spent many time playing the map15, but at least I've beat it once saving only before the encounters. This one on the pic among others got my attention cause it was quite tough if a player chose to accept the intended way of doing it. Just a little info: 600+ monsters erupting from the teleporters in the center of the area like from the volcano, there are 7 cybers, 30+ archies. Any thoughts on this from those who passed this part? It does look hard considering the other encounters of the map15. I've uploaded the savegame made in prb2515 for "Sunder 21813.wad" just in case if somebody didn't play that. Btw, it's laggy. 

Spoiler

doom_sunder_M15_enc1.png.b5972db3028e1349d21b707110925280.png

 

prboom-plus-savegame0.zip

Edited by Player177

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Huge fan of this mappack, but it seems these new maps are unplayable in anything but vanilla because of the lag in other source ports. I usually play single player doom in GZDoom but on Map 15 alone I'd drop to below 20 fps at times.

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21 hours ago, Player177 said:

Any thoughts on this from those who passed this part?

imo it was by far the hardest fight in the map when i playtested it.. I ended up running circles round the outside and saving most of the bfg ammo to kill viles only.. When a few brave viles managed to get through the crowd to the outer edge it was a case of rushing them and point blank slapping them in the face with a bfg ball. The rest kinda takes care of itself once enough viles die. Also lured some cacos to above the central lowering vile boxes and used inf height rocket splash on the cacos to kill some viles from above before they were let out

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6 hours ago, FTW395 said:

Huge fan of this mappack, but it seems these new maps are unplayable in anything but vanilla because of the lag in other source ports.

I'd argue it's more unplayable in vanilla than in other source ports.

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On 6/20/2019 at 12:56 PM, Player177 said:

It's a delayed post. Can't say that I've spent many time playing the map15, but at least I've beat it once saving only before the encounters. This one on the pic among others got my attention cause it was quite tough if a player chose to accept the intended way of doing it. Just a little info: 600+ monsters erupting from the teleporters in the center of the area like from the volcano, there are 7 cybers, 30+ archies. Any thoughts on this from those who passed this part? It does look hard considering the other encounters of the map15. I've uploaded the savegame made in prb2515 for "Sunder 21813.wad" just in case if somebody didn't play that. Btw, it's laggy. 

  Hide contents

doom_sunder_M15_enc1.png.b5972db3028e1349d21b707110925280.png

 

prboom-plus-savegame0.zip

I didn't actually find it that hard personally. Basically I ran around in a circle, if I saw a vile close I would blast it with a BFG, and hide behind a pillar for a moment if I saw I was being targeted. Once the viles die, the rest of the enemies are easily killed.

 

There is a much harder variant of this fight at the very end of the map, that IMO is the hardest fight. You cannot freely go in a circle because the enemies come from the corners of the room, and the vile movement as a result is much more erratic and hard to deal with.

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1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

I'd argue it's more unplayable in vanilla than in other source ports.

What source port do people use to play these new sunder maps on then?

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6 hours ago, FTW395 said:

What source port do people use to play these new sunder maps on then?

 

I think the point he's making is that these are Boom compatible maps. They physically can't be played on vanilla ports (i.e. Chocolate Doom)

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Thanks for the answers! It pushed me to find a solution in the laggy environment. They have increased.

 

15 hours ago, bemused said:

imo it was by far the hardest fight in the map when i playtested it.

I felt that it was surprisingly hard. After, maybe, the first big encounter under the vaults with a pillar in the middle there was nothing even close to this. And right after the RSK room which was an easy ride I thought "Wtf, this can't be so unforgiving for a kind of oval track racing!". The number of my failed attempts here grew significantly until I decided to trigger the teleporters and escape through the lava than sit in the RSK room. As far as I can tell the running circles method here is just too risky. At least saveless. The problem is that I haven't found the key to this encounter with the vile boxes and thought it's similar to the Hag's Finger last battle in a closed room. Turns out it's not that similar. 

 

After I've read two opinions that look opposite I've decided to try it again instead of starting the map16. I don't know how you guys circling, but... probably the thing is that this area isn't cut off. If it was than I'd be forced to learn the moves through the unbearable butthurt. The good thing is that I found a way that makes this encounter one of the easiest in the map. The most effective and fast strategy is to hide down the stairs for couple minutes and then let the cybers destroy the trapped horde. At some point I start running from one corner with the cells to another with the rl boxes . From the beginning of telepoting everything cooked after 5 minutes by itself. 

 

12 hours ago, 3saster said:

There is a much harder variant of this fight at the very end of the map, that IMO is the hardest fight. You cannot freely go in a circle because the enemies come from the corners of the room, and the vile movement as a result is much more erratic and hard to deal with.

In the last battle I used U-circling and swung like a pendulum for some time. The amount of attempts here were much less and I felt progress unlike with the encounter on the water. 

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After a fair bit of tedious work, I've re-done the outdoor area in Map 31:
 

Spoiler

Screenshot_Doom_20190622_181135.png

 

Next up I'll get those previously mentioned Map 15 fixes done, send it off to poor Ribbiks once more and get the update out. Then I'll get back to pushing out a version with fixes to the old maps.

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Man, map16 is tremendous! Couldn't finish it. Quit at the bfg spot. Made some screens in prboom, small bugs: 

That's sector 1347

Spoiler

 

doom20.png.952e0c7b625c45ea42a3035ca0d37ee8.png

That's a switch

Spoiler

doom23.png.35270ecd73c22bd37667bc00992ab95d.png

 

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Played through map 15. I managed it on GZdoom but not by much, the frame rate was bad but never hit slideshow levels or anything prohibitive. It's an interesting map and an absolute spectacle to be sure. On that front it's incredible and deserves every bit of praise it's gotten.

 

I don't consider it done yet since I haven't figured out the normal way to get to the secret exit. It's something outside the final arena I think since the way to that opens back up but the elevator back up doesn't work, but I can't find anything at all. Gave it over an hour, I'll come back to it in a day or two and try and find out what you're supposed to do.

 

Edit: Finally found it.

 

Spoiler

I suppose the placement makes sense. Easy to miss that first switch, though a lot of difficulty is on my end due to bad vision. Ah well. Rest of it ultimately fell into place once that first part was sorted out.

 

It still took me about two hours of searching that final area to find it. I wonder if that's typical?

 

This is one of the few Doom levels that's ever blown me away. I'm not sure how I feel about in depth. It's a 10/10 even if it has some issues.

Edited by Archviler

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