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Insane_Gazebo

Sunder - Map17 is here!

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The map 32 is absolutely gorgeous and deserves itself a cacoward , but damn sorry to say that but the labyrinth is horrible to beat. I didn't manage to survive the last fight. I will do it tomorrow. :)

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Those maps are all gorgeous and are a joy to look at. Unfortunately I am very, very, very bad at this kind of gameplay and thus, did not manage to get anywhere near Map 2 without cheats. I cheated my way through a couple of maps though, and it is truely mesmerizing what has been done with seemingly simple shapes and a couple of textures.

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I'ma just shamelessly self-promote :p .

 

 

 

Anyway, I do very much like what I'm seeing (and getting in my direction) contrary to my raging sometimes. It's gorgeous, atmospheric, and intense, just like Sunder was the last time I played it. The problem here is that yes, performance is really bad on MAP15 on very specific parts where it's basically unplayable, but otherwise it's solid so far.

 

Note though: Expect to hear lots of "fucks" after a certain point.

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I finish map 32 (the last fight) and I do a part of Map 16.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

The... Sunderian nightmare continues :D .

 

I hurt 'em plenty (funny, they hurt me too. A lot actually, enough to make me rage a bit after a while). Stuff is still solid, but like I said in the stream, I do believe the combat needed more variety in places. MAP15 took me almost 7 hours, and MAP16 supposedly can take over 6. Oh boy, looks like I'm gonna be busy for a while.

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One of these days I'm gonna have to play through Sunder.  

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Things are getting better and better :D . First 1000 enemies of MAP16.

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Man I love MAP16, thick atmosphere and I think it really nails the gameplay, compared to the lack of combat variety and grinding seen on MAP15 where the fights felt too samey. Kind of sets the standard in many ways regarding how the future maps should be like.

 

Damn good h8ZpNaM.png.

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7 hours ago, seed said:
Man I love MAP16, thick atmosphere and I think it really nails the gameplay, compared to the lack of combat variety and grinding seen on MAP15 where the fights felt too samey. Kind of sets the standard in many ways regarding how the future maps should be like.

 

Damn good h8ZpNaM.png.

 

As always, thank you for your playthroughs and feedback. I'll certainly comment regarding your own feedback a little later, I just don't like to give away too much.

 

Your stream also showed me a few minor bugs with Map 16. One missing texture, a misaligned switch and a stuck cyberdemon. (He was supposed to pop out during the first big caco fight.) Given the size of the level, I'm not surprised they got missed. (Most testers weren't willing to replay the map more than once, understandably.)

 

Also, thank you @Roofifor your own as well. I've had to use google translate a bit (on comments left in twitch chat) to understand what was going on, but it sounds like you were largely having fun.

 

Once I'm convinced there's nothing majorly wrong with Maps 31 and 32 I'll get a small update out to fix these issues, as well as that secret level skip in Map15. 

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You've probably caught most of these by now, but I thought I'd post an update on the problems I've found thus far...

 

Map 15

Spoiler

A misplaced texture in the room that spawns revenants, in the area that you have to jump off small platforms to reach and fight cybers/cacodemons.

 doom17.jpg.1d2b48c3445c56868525d3540e37809e.jpg

Some ceilings with the sky effect; I thought it looked cool in the first image, but seeing it later on it just looked like a mistake to me.

doom18.jpg.de7f8193a774c1ef48ca9e12d3efb0b5.jpg

doom22.jpg.4a23d3daad948e6320404d917843bf8f.jpg

doom20.jpg.88afd03d98d033792db3980be1c33091.jpg

doom19.jpg.cf6840f7dc719b132739cc952384b6d2.jpg

There is an area behind the room with the teleport to the secret exit, with detailing that the player will never see: some unfinished platforms and trees.

doom21.jpg.e72a205756a17d4cd8c5cea044fa64d8.jpg

 

Map 31:

Spoiler

There are some HOMs at the bottom around the exit with the floating platforms; most players won't be stupid enough to fall at that point but it bothered me regardless.

doom12.jpg.8c6a42c334ffd8af59a56080c584cc78.jpg

doom15.jpg.fd414fe6ceaab8ff1a28c0ba2608ce4c.jpg

Another HOM where the sky is too low:

doom11.jpg.248650b26ba9813d608c049278955c15.jpg

Also it looks as if not every floating platform was tagged with the custom green sky, leading to this bug if you play with mouselook:

doom14.jpg.727521fb12eeda972fd3618cdcd651cd.jpg

Finally, not really a HOM necessarily but there's no reason why the tower you start in should look 2d like this:

doom16.jpg.7bf0888ba2a79f3c718fa9dc391312b6.jpg

 

Map 32:

Spoiler

You can fall off a treestump and get stuck here, near the cave fight before you go to the main garden:

doom24.jpg.644284459fdc03860b1d56c892048982.jpg

And here are some chaingunners who never teleport in:

doom25.jpg.41d22dbbfb022f716c33da8573040895.jpg

 

I feel like it should be possible to go back and explore previous areas at some point too; at least, preventing the player from going back around to the hedge maze again after you get the red key felt unneccessarily mean, especially as most players will want to get the hell out of the maze before they've killed everything, and won't be in good condition to max it properly until later.

 

About the hedge maze fight: personally, I thought it was horrible, and not in a fun way. There are a few places in this map where you can save yourself into an unwinnable position that doesn't become apparent until 20 minutes down the line (I'm thinking of the cyberdemon horde, which won't infight effectively and therefore must be dispatched with the invul spheres so as not to block access to the next area), and while that is questionble in itself, the hedge maze takes it to its logical conclusion: it requires absolutely perfect knowledge of the maze, perfect foresight, luck, you name it....I wasted hours camping in the main fountain area after hitting the first two switches, before running out of ammo and getting overwhelmed. It seems the only way to do it is to rush to the switches, which means knowing the maze like the back of your hand - not displaying it on the map just felt like trolling by this point - and playing RNG roullette with the archvile swarm until you can escape by the skin of your teeth. At least give the player some more medkits somewhere away from the fountain area, so they can afford to take a bit of random damage here and there.

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi, I've been playing through map 32 and thought I'd add a bit of my own feedback. I've made it up to the hedge maze fight.

 

I think the map's too restrictive on backtracking. It seems to be one of those maps where you get cut off from going backwards every few sections, which is really too bad. Maybe this changes later, but comments I've read suggests it doesn't.

 

I really like the second battle in the map (the one for the BFG) because I feel there's two distinct ways to approach it. You can grab the BFG and get stuck in the area to clean it out aggressively, or fall back immediately and try to handle it with distance, infighting and what ammo you do have. Both approaches were enjoyable for me and I appreciated the choice getting the BFG poses, and the question of when you should grab it.

 

The giant battle in front of the manor's great. There's tons of space and angles to work with it, as well as plenty of different approaches to deal with the horde of demons. I had a blast playing with ways to manage that. That being said, I think it is short on health. Personally, I'd suggest adding a few medikits or a soulsphere by the third switch in the sequence (the one by the gate that you can see the red key through). This would also make going after the cybers atop the hill a little more viable for someone who didn't save an invulnerability or two for it.

 

Speaking of, I'm not sure if I had bad luck or not, but I didn't have a single cyber on that hill die from infighting. That made dealing with the cybers at the end tricky to say the least. I used them plenty to thin down the horde, so it wasn't for a lack of trying.

 

The hedge maze itself looks absolutely helllish. I haven't played it beyond a few half hearted attempts so far, but unless you can get vile jumped out of it altogether, it looks like a godawful slog of a fight. It's narrow, cramped, hard and frankly very easy to get cut off from supplies at the wrong time and die. It feels like you have to have an absolute grasp of it unless I'm missing a strategy or a trick. It's also the only part of the map I don't like from a gameplay viewpoint, as while I appreciate a change of pace, it feels too out of sync with the rest of the map thus far.

 

All of that's one thing and if it was fun, I'd still say it's fine. The problem is that it all comes together to be really unpleasant and unfun to play. I'd enjoyed the map greatly until then, thinking it was a 10/10 for sure, but that hedge maze is bad. God help whomever tries to UV-max that. I'll pick it up tonight and try to find a way through, but I'm not looking forward to it.

 

Relatedly, the little cacodemon/arachnotron/demon fight before the hedge maze was a nice and fairly easy change of pace after the giant battle before it. It felt too easy, but after the last fight, I think a cool down is fitting.

 

Edit because I forgot to mention it: Also, I haven't done much in the other maps, but 15/16 are occasionally getting crashes for me when I check the automap on them, especially if I gave myself a computer area map item. I'm on gzdoom 4.0, which on checking isn't current, so updating may fix that anyway. Mentioning it anyway, just in case it's helpful.

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Posted (edited)

 

Well, this was profoundly disappointing to be honest. One of my worst sessions in a loooong time unfortunately, barely did anything today :( , sorry everyone.

 

Took me an awful lot of time to realize the Cacodemon/PE area could be easily skipped, and after that I got tired and lost my focus. So, mostly raging and not much else to see today, as much as it sucks to say it...

 

But damn, what could I possibly miss in the circular room with the Barons? I pretty much gave up and postphoned it for a later time until I get an answer. I didn't see anything on the automap, and nothing else triggered after I killed the Barons, so I just warped to MAP31 instead but had to cut it short because real life happened, heh.

 

Again, sorry folks, will try to do better next time, but this time things took a turn for the worst.

Edited by seed

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Finished MAP16 and MAP31 :p .

 

Definitely a vast improvement from the past session imo, things went much better this time. I really liked MAP31, but having played magnolia first it felt a bit strange to me almost the whole time (if I didn't know it was made by you gazebo, I would have assumed it's a Ribbiks map by default lol). It was good stuff for sure, even though I have some mixed feelings about that section with all the pathways. Overall, I do believe MAP16 and 31 nailed, to varying degrees, how future maps should play like, mostly, but there's still plenty of room to innovate :) .

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It is done :D .

 

Phew MAP32 was a cruel beast on a few occasions (we all know which). But it's good stuff for sure, definitely looking forward to more maps in the future. More details in the videos. Hopefully everything that's important is there as I had to split the stream in 2 highlights, otherwise it would just give me an error and fail.

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Some cosmetic features of this release bugged me, so I started experimenting.

 

It's obvious map01 was designed with Doom 2's default palette in mind. The dingy sewer-green brick textures don't meld well with the new teal green, which looks alien in a wrong way and takes away the surprise of seeing map31's colour scheme for the first time. So, I decided to copy the offending textures to Doom 2's palette, then truecolor, and then back to Sunder again. With a bit of colour remapping it's possible to get a pretty good dark green, suited to Python's 'toxic waste dump' theme:

Spoiler

palette.jpg.c302d0cc0a99e074838e59b1589e698c.jpg

I've attached the new textures in case you want to use them, although either these or their teal variants will have to be renamed and remapped in DoomBuilder.

 

I tried map15 again and wasn't able to recreate severe lag that was bothering me the first time around. Seeing the screenshots of how the level was intended to look, I decided to knock the giant wall through, cowboy builder style:

Spoiler

wall1.jpg.d901e1c29cfdb12d66dea8973b50c303.jpg

wall2.jpg.4f31bf0333610b62108ee2ec903a7854.jpg

wall3.jpg.22519c84e7ec2d4a0ad49a22c66790b9.jpg

The framerate was indeed quite horrible, although that may be at least partially due to having no access to Ribbiks's custom reject table script (and I had to save the map with DeepNode because ZenNode always crashed). I wonder though, if it might be worth releasing a 'future proof' version of the map without the wall, in a separate wad file.

SFALL1.png

SFALL2.png

SFALL3.png

SFALL4.png

GRNRKF.png

GRNSTONE.png

GRROCK1.png

NUKAGE1.png

NUKAGE2.png

NUKAGE3.png

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Posted (edited)

It's a delayed post. Can't say that I've spent many time playing the map15, but at least I've beat it once saving only before the encounters. This one on the pic among others got my attention cause it was quite tough if a player chose to accept the intended way of doing it. Just a little info: 600+ monsters erupting from the teleporters in the center of the area like from the volcano, there are 7 cybers, 30+ archies. Any thoughts on this from those who passed this part? It does look hard considering the other encounters of the map15. I've uploaded the savegame made in prb2515 for "Sunder 21813.wad" just in case if somebody didn't play that. Btw, it's laggy. 

Spoiler

doom_sunder_M15_enc1.png.b5972db3028e1349d21b707110925280.png

 

prboom-plus-savegame0.zip

Edited by Player177

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Huge fan of this mappack, but it seems these new maps are unplayable in anything but vanilla because of the lag in other source ports. I usually play single player doom in GZDoom but on Map 15 alone I'd drop to below 20 fps at times.

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21 hours ago, Player177 said:

Any thoughts on this from those who passed this part?

imo it was by far the hardest fight in the map when i playtested it.. I ended up running circles round the outside and saving most of the bfg ammo to kill viles only.. When a few brave viles managed to get through the crowd to the outer edge it was a case of rushing them and point blank slapping them in the face with a bfg ball. The rest kinda takes care of itself once enough viles die. Also lured some cacos to above the central lowering vile boxes and used inf height rocket splash on the cacos to kill some viles from above before they were let out

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6 hours ago, FTW395 said:

Huge fan of this mappack, but it seems these new maps are unplayable in anything but vanilla because of the lag in other source ports.

I'd argue it's more unplayable in vanilla than in other source ports.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/20/2019 at 12:56 PM, Player177 said:

It's a delayed post. Can't say that I've spent many time playing the map15, but at least I've beat it once saving only before the encounters. This one on the pic among others got my attention cause it was quite tough if a player chose to accept the intended way of doing it. Just a little info: 600+ monsters erupting from the teleporters in the center of the area like from the volcano, there are 7 cybers, 30+ archies. Any thoughts on this from those who passed this part? It does look hard considering the other encounters of the map15. I've uploaded the savegame made in prb2515 for "Sunder 21813.wad" just in case if somebody didn't play that. Btw, it's laggy. 

  Hide contents

doom_sunder_M15_enc1.png.b5972db3028e1349d21b707110925280.png

 

prboom-plus-savegame0.zip

I didn't actually find it that hard personally. Basically I ran around in a circle, if I saw a vile close I would blast it with a BFG, and hide behind a pillar for a moment if I saw I was being targeted. Once the viles die, the rest of the enemies are easily killed.

 

There is a much harder variant of this fight at the very end of the map, that IMO is the hardest fight. You cannot freely go in a circle because the enemies come from the corners of the room, and the vile movement as a result is much more erratic and hard to deal with.

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1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

I'd argue it's more unplayable in vanilla than in other source ports.

What source port do people use to play these new sunder maps on then?

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6 hours ago, FTW395 said:

What source port do people use to play these new sunder maps on then?

 

I think the point he's making is that these are Boom compatible maps. They physically can't be played on vanilla ports (i.e. Chocolate Doom)

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Thanks for the answers! It pushed me to find a solution in the laggy environment. They have increased.

 

15 hours ago, bemused said:

imo it was by far the hardest fight in the map when i playtested it.

I felt that it was surprisingly hard. After, maybe, the first big encounter under the vaults with a pillar in the middle there was nothing even close to this. And right after the RSK room which was an easy ride I thought "Wtf, this can't be so unforgiving for a kind of oval track racing!". The number of my failed attempts here grew significantly until I decided to trigger the teleporters and escape through the lava than sit in the RSK room. As far as I can tell the running circles method here is just too risky. At least saveless. The problem is that I haven't found the key to this encounter with the vile boxes and thought it's similar to the Hag's Finger last battle in a closed room. Turns out it's not that similar. 

 

After I've read two opinions that look opposite I've decided to try it again instead of starting the map16. I don't know how you guys circling, but... probably the thing is that this area isn't cut off. If it was than I'd be forced to learn the moves through the unbearable butthurt. The good thing is that I found a way that makes this encounter one of the easiest in the map. The most effective and fast strategy is to hide down the stairs for couple minutes and then let the cybers destroy the trapped horde. At some point I start running from one corner with the cells to another with the rl boxes . From the beginning of telepoting everything cooked after 5 minutes by itself. 

 

12 hours ago, 3saster said:

There is a much harder variant of this fight at the very end of the map, that IMO is the hardest fight. You cannot freely go in a circle because the enemies come from the corners of the room, and the vile movement as a result is much more erratic and hard to deal with.

In the last battle I used U-circling and swung like a pendulum for some time. The amount of attempts here were much less and I felt progress unlike with the encounter on the water. 

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Posted (edited)

Man, map16 is tremendous! Couldn't finish it. Quit at the bfg spot. Made some screens in prboom, small bugs: 

That's sector 1347

Spoiler

 

doom20.png.952e0c7b625c45ea42a3035ca0d37ee8.png

That's a switch

Spoiler

doom23.png.35270ecd73c22bd37667bc00992ab95d.png

 

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Posted (edited)

Played through map 15. I managed it on GZdoom but not by much, the frame rate was bad but never hit slideshow levels or anything prohibitive. It's an interesting map and an absolute spectacle to be sure. On that front it's incredible and deserves every bit of praise it's gotten.

 

I don't consider it done yet since I haven't figured out the normal way to get to the secret exit. It's something outside the final arena I think since the way to that opens back up but the elevator back up doesn't work, but I can't find anything at all. Gave it over an hour, I'll come back to it in a day or two and try and find out what you're supposed to do.

 

Edit: Finally found it.

 

Spoiler

I suppose the placement makes sense. Easy to miss that first switch, though a lot of difficulty is on my end due to bad vision. Ah well. Rest of it ultimately fell into place once that first part was sorted out.

 

It still took me about two hours of searching that final area to find it. I wonder if that's typical?

 

This is one of the few Doom levels that's ever blown me away. I'm not sure how I feel about in depth. It's a 10/10 even if it has some issues.

Edited by Archviler

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