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Insane_Gazebo

Sunder - Map17 is here!

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@Khaoscythe Are you using Boom (strict) compatibility? I'm pretty sure one of the latest 4.1.X versions of GZDoom implements vanilla flying physics as long as a compatibility flag is enabled.

 

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Also, in the case of something like this if it's a GZDoom issue, I think you can be forgiven for using mouselook for a bit and sniping them down (unless you were already using mlook and I'm missing something).

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Puh. It´s awesome. but superhard. but awesome. i listen to the doom 2016-soundtrack while getting ripped ;) thanks for this cool wad!

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8 hours ago, Spectre01 said:

@Khaoscythe Are you using Boom (strict) compatibility? I'm pretty sure one of the latest 4.1.X versions of GZDoom implements vanilla flying physics as long as a compatibility flag is enabled.

 

 

Yeah it's how I play all of my wads. I'll have to look into that later.

 

4 hours ago, DuckReconMajor said:

Also, in the case of something like this if it's a GZDoom issue, I think you can be forgiven for using mouselook for a bit and sniping them down (unless you were already using mlook and I'm missing something).

 

My OCD doesn't allow me to use mouselook (or jump/crouch) in any wads unless they're necessary.. and besides, something like that wouldn't be allowed for demo-recording. :\

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Khaoscythe said:

Yeah it's how I play all of my wads. I'll have to look into that later.

 

Yeah in 4.1.0 I think, two compatibility options were added in the Physics Behavior section for Compatibility. "No vertical thrust from explosions" does exactly what it sounds like, handy option to use anyway since flying monsters can be weird in GZDoom. "Use original Doom explosion behaviour" uses the original behaviour where all rocket impacts behave as if the rocket was fired horizontally at the monster, i.e. the angle you fire a rocket doesn't matter. The former should be on for Doom/Boom compatibility, the latter for their strict counterparts. Turn one of these on and it will remove a lot of the annoyance of killing flyers in GZDoom. The cost is you can't rocket jump anymore :P That only matters if you're using freelook though.

 

Lirui is right though, if you plan on recording demos, GZDoom is not a good choice. Stick with PrBoom+.

Edited by 3saster

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You've managed to break map 9 in the bugfixing process. Sector 22 is usable only once from each side, effectively making beating that map impossible.

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I'm playing through the early maps (I'm struggling now; lets see how we go when I'm further than map04). Playing on the second to most recent version.

 

In map04 it feels like this should be marked impassable. This is the first room you get locked in - You have to flip the four switches, two of them are timed, multiple crushers with hell nobles spawning in and chaingunners that have popped up in the outside corridor shooting in.

 

image.png.130764894e07c0bdd249abb14da8bb44.png

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I've just played through map 17 (on UV with saves). Took me the best part of 3 hours to get to the end of this devious, grand-scale evil techno library of sorts.

Man, what a ride !

 

"Archives of the Technomancer" is shorter than map 16, but it is still a massive level, with plenty of verticality.

Visually, this is absolutely gorgeous. I love how the bright yellow textures help to highlight the various shapes and structures.

Most of the fights feature large groups of monsters due to the BFG9000 being given early on. Make no mistake, this is a true slaughtermap from beginning to end.
This is cool, but I wish the BFG was given later, so that there could be more variety in the size of the encounters (like in map 31, my favorite among the new additions). Still, the fights feel diversified enough thanks to the various locales and the monster usage itself.

 

There's some platforming in there as well, but nothing too irritating for my tastes.

The hardest sequence, by far, was the crusher part near the end. It took me a ton of retries, and I don't know which was the most dangerous element - the seemingly-endless wave of Arch-Viles / Barons / Revenants, or the crushers themselves.
I do have one main gripe about that part : when you activate the switch behind the yellow door, it's not clear what you're supposed to be doing next, and then I spent ages finding the switch that activates the lift allowing you to exit. Maybe it's just me, but should that last switch be easier to notice ?

I cheesed through the ending fight by jumping over here, it's possible (though risky) to hop around the entire zone and wait for the horde to thin itself through infighting.

Congrats on yet another mind-blowing map, can't wait to see what map 18 is about.... :)

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A little late, but I just got around to 15. I've managed it with saves in around 2 hours... and realised after cleaning out the entire map that I've completely missed BFG. So, yeah, that makes anything I'd say void.

 

One idea though, I would probably make BFG a little more obvious to spot.

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7 hours ago, j4rio said:

You've managed to break map 9 in the bugfixing process. Sector 22 is usable only once from each side, effectively making beating that map impossible.

 

Ah, whoops. Would help to select the correct action type! Thanks.

 

7 hours ago, Archie550 said:

Cool! cant wait to play it. and bychance are you ever gonna fix the sleeping imps in map10?

 

Check out the bugfix list on my other post as it's mentioned there.

 

2 hours ago, WH-Wilou84 said:

I cheesed through the ending fight by jumping over here, it's possible (though risky) to hop around the entire zone and wait for the horde to thin itself through infighting.

 

Ah, thanks for reminding me about that. That was something I'd meant to fix and completely forgot about.

 

3 hours ago, Magicana said:

Post about impassible walls on Map 04.

 

Yeah I completely agree those should be impassible. I didn't even realise those were low enough to walk in after all these years. Thanks.

 

13 minutes ago, j4rio said:

I would probably make BFG a little more obvious to spot.

 

I can't say I've heard of anyone else missing it (unless I've forgotten someone), but I could put something else up there to draw the eye perhaps. 

Edited by Insane_Gazebo

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48 minutes ago, Insane_Gazebo said:

Check out the bugfix list on my other post as it's mentioned there.

 

Only maps 1-9 are quoted on the bugfix list.

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7 minutes ago, lirui1001 said:

 

Only maps 1-9 are quoted on the bugfix list.

 

... I can't copy/paste my own notes correctly as it turns out. Whoops. I'll edit in the missing ones. (10 - 14.)

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Well progress through Map 17 went fine up until the crusher area towards the end before I called i quits. I can't help but feel that that particular spot is somewhat imbalanced considering you'd have to kill everything twice/three times over and not having enough ammo to do it. Best strat I could think of was backtracking all the way back to the beginning of that section and picking everything off room by room, but then I'd be completely out of ammunition by the time I make it past the section with the soulsphere/switch and a metric ton of demons to deal with. Speeding past everything to hit the av/cybie switch that lowers the teleport to the YK is fruitless as you just have to run past everything again (which is impossible now that the viles have had more than enough time to revive everything).

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Been playing Sunder quite a lot recently before I stopped at Map 11: The Furnace. I use GZdoom and played with a few mods there. 
And I'm really stunned how gorgeous the architecture is! So much love has been put into this megawad for years! I enjoy slaughtermaps 
where they have good looking architecture and soundtracks that keeps on your toes! Got the latest update and firing it up again. 
Fantastic work, Gazebo! Also new to the Doomworld forums! 

Have to admit that some levels got me frustrated. xD

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I'm going to disappoint the pacifist community and mention you can still easily pacify map 9 without shooting the switch. Those gaps on first elevator are wide enough to glide through.

 

Also, I'd really reconsider map 12 start. You shouldn't be allowed to avjump straight to BFG, as it heavily devaluates the punch of many starting encounters.

 

 

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MAP13 (always had this problem afaik) uses a poor MIDI file. On SDL (in PrBoom+), when the track ends, there is silence for about 50 seconds and then the track loops again. On Fluidsynth (GZDoom and PrBoom+), the track doesn't loop at all. You should either use a different song, or have someone who knows MIDIs better fix the file. Preferably the second one, because the Blade Runner track is pretty cool :)

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2 hours ago, 3saster said:

MAP13 Midi Problem.

 

Yeah, it does have this issue. Thankfully Scotty has come to the rescue and given me a fixed version. I'll make sure to put that in for the next update. (Along with all the other little things people have reported.)

 

20 minutes ago, lirui1001 said:

A wild HOM has appeared.

 

Ah, thanks Lirui. I'll get that fixed. Hopefully you (and everyone else) is enjoying the map.

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Don't know whether these are reported, but I'll go ahead and report it anyway. Both of these are on Map16.

 

1. This hole is not damaging, so the player can drop down and softlock the game.

Spoiler

sunder16-2.jpg.1a8fe1eb32d7aea3d950b6cbc830cd21.jpg

 

2. Here, the player can jump through the window. If the door is closed already, it can't be opened from the outside again.

Spoiler

sunder16-1.jpg.45a3bb7f6c70eea6fc10082efabdae95.jpg

 

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I'm going to post some stuff regarding map 9 because to me it seems like it's somewhat notably buggy and hasn't really fulfilled its potential.

 

Near the first archvile, those columns raise way too slowly and you can back up before they're sufficiently raised, doing that locks you at start with no way to proceed further.

 

Given the introduction of shootable switches, I believe there's no point in keeping those demons at the start, same thing with map 10 chaingunner duo at the start, since their only purpose is to... attempt to prevent pacifisting, and they kind of look out of place.

 

Monster teleporters of first encounter (and almost all other encounters) are way too slow, you think the fight is already over when another bunch of monsters start teleporting in... it drags the fight rather than add anything of value.

 

Are sectors 23, 35, 38 and 39 in map 9 flagged as damaging on purpose? It looks weird getting damaged by metallic floor and there's no way to return back on track once you fall on those anyway.

 

The second encounter in map 9 is pointless, monsters teleporting onto sector 3 are stuck on the platform and cause no harm whatsoever, while those few teleporting onto sector 7 don't really add any threat or value either, since it's the same mix that has already been thrown at the player in the first encounter and those lower stairs are barring them from approaching you as well. I would remake the platforms of sector 88 and 91 into wider so monsters from that cutoff platform can follow you. The same could be done with the stairway, sectors 178, 179 and 180. I would also make it impossible to descend back to lower platform from where you're handling the first encounter, as you can slowly and tediously camp from there until everything dies.

 

Another option is simply connecting both second and third encounter into a single one. That way you wouldn't need to remake any stairs, as all monsters would serve their purpose of cutting you off from respective camping spots. I would probably try making sector 228 a little bit wider for more fluent monster migration around these sections. It would probably require a little more health pickups if done this way though. Also mancubuses take way too long to teleport here, I would just make separate monster closets for them. And in all other encounters they are in as well.

 

Additional revenants teleporting to sectors 318, 319 and 320 are pointless. You wouldn't fight them on those stairs anyway, just camp them all from ground level. I would swap those additional revenants for archviles, one per each cage, for some additional oomph without dragging the fight.

 

Imps teleporting onto sector 1016 are completely useless waste of an encounter. I'd make it a lock-in encounter, otherwise there's no point in having it in at all. Also, there are way too many imps in their respective teleporter closets so the last ones teleport in with way too long delay.

 

Cybers teleporting onto sectors 1005 and 1010 should probably be enveloped by block lines, so they don't end up stuck at the edge of their respective sectors. It's more likely than it sounds, especially the 1005 one.

 

The descend to sector 1004 is unintuitive. You can't see any stairs nor the switch necessary for progress properly.

 

The small section with encounters divided by teleporters is way too easy to bypass by rushing towards teleporters.

 

That demons / cybers encounter just doesn't work. You can simply hide in the corridor you got through, those few demons that teleport there are not enough of a force to prevent just camping that entire fight from there. Alternatively, there's a switch opening a path to previous sections that's freely available to press, which allows you additional approach of just leaving that section completely and camping it from safe distance.

 

The encounter up ahead, I think cybers are pointless there. They can't target you and basically reduce the fight to just waiting until they're done infighting, then you'll just use plasma to take care of them, completely devoid of any danger. Also, the middle platform should be more traversible for monsters, widening those stairs on both sides would do the job just fine.

 

Caco / PE fight ahead has a timed switch that takes way too long to reveal itself.

 

Teleporting back to the beginning, you are basically going to battle something you've already fought through... twice. I think this could be much more interesting if some of those monsters teleport to the ground level instead, basically forcing you to retreat back to starting lift. Maybe even spicing it up with a few cacos from sides so it's not just a single line of monsters approaching you. Also, I've managed to skip over line that reveals ammo in the beginning accidentally.

 

A cyberdemon with invulnerability after BK door is just plain filler. An archvile spam would be a better option for such filler scenario, as you are at least trying not to get blown away from platform.

 

Fights after BFG are way too invulnerability centric. More ammo / health and ditching at least some invulnerabilities would do it a favor imo.

 

The last room could use some visual clue as to why monsters can't enter the inner part of room because of blocklines. It looks rather awkward as it is, all monsters just stopping walking towards you mid-platform. Also megaspheres in front of switches, meeeh.

 

Yeah, that's about it.

Edited by j4rio

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Just finished map17 yesterday and i gotta say this is the most fun i had in a sunder map in a long time! The other new maps had some really frustrating parts that got me stressed, but this one was just an all out fun experience.

 

One concern i have is that some of the early fights it seems there is just way too much ammo, especially the first fight indoors. i had tons and tons of cells and rockets left over.

 

Also I have no idea what the intended strat is for the crusher section but i ran out of ammo real quick. I had to camp for about 20 mins waiting for upwards of 80 monsters to get crushed on a crusher that you may have forgot to put block lines on, im not sure. (crusher is sector 12034, i camped in the room with sector 13472)

 

And then for the last fight, i cant really say much cause i didnt do it as intended. After ten or so tries, i was convinced it was impossible until i noticed the outside. I crept around the outside and was able to straferun back into the massive cacodemon arena from earlier.

 

From there i was able to camp safely until most monsters killed themselves. It wasnt until i re-entered the arena that i noticed the teleporters in the back so maybe now i can give it a proper try.

 

All in all i enjoyed it a lot and visuals were outstanding as always.

 

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45 minutes ago, Archie550 said:

One concern i have is that some of the early fights it seems there is just way too much ammo, especially the first fight indoors. i had tons and tons of cells and rockets left over.

 

Also I have no idea what the intended strat is for the crusher section but i ran out of ammo real quick. I had to camp for about 20 mins waiting for upwards of 80 monsters to get crushed on a crusher that you may have forgot to put block lines on, im not sure. (crusher is sector 12034, i camped in the room with sector 13472)

 

Adding to this, regarding the very first fight in the map I noticed some flaws with the inevitable release of the THREE (??!!) Arch-Viles after hitting the wall switch. For starters: if the player is well aware of their surroundings when playing the map for their first time they will realize that there are AV's behind that wall and that whatever demons enter the area must be killed as far away from that wall as possible. Three AV's is not enough for the potential combat possibilities they can present, therefore I suggest adding more AV's in that small area before they're released (I was thinking ~10) that way:

 

-The player cannot just use the tactic of waiting around the corner for them to come around it one by one (the left side being more risky since a Vile can just toss you off the cliffside, while the right side is the safer option considering you have a pillar of sorts obstructing their view.. I would personally get rid of that obstruction btw due to my next point).

 

-By having the player not rely on the above strat, it promotes the Viles to advance upon the player further into the arena thus forcing the player to back away much further than expected. Of course the player could just use the monster teleport exit nearby and hide behind its columns but that will only be effective when three Viles approach you as opposed to ~10. I can see that the Viles are supposed to act as a sort of tidal wave forcing the player back but the current amount does not suffice for the effect the mapper is probably trying to implement.

 

-Another idea would be to not have the Viles behind that wall and, instead, place a bunch of them in a monster closet and have the switch that lowers the wall also open said monster pen and allow the AV's to flood in from there. Doing this would at least not give away the fact that there are Viles waiting behind the wall, and having the player resort to kiting everything to the opposite end of the arena.

 

 

Regarding the first indoor fight I do agree that there's way more ammo than necessary. Tbh I was expecting a ton of demons to teleport to the point where the BFG and ammo are located, and not just having them spawn where they currently do (which is fine btw nothing wrong with their current locations). Not sure what to have teleport there but it would apply pressure to the player if they decided to head to the BFG area to pick off most of the monsters (which was one of my go-to strats going into this fight, that or bum rushing the HK's).

 

 

Also yeah I was going to bring up the fact that some of the crushers in that dreaded room have monster block lines, and therefore defeat their purpose of being there in regards to helping at killing the opposition, unless it was the initial intent to have the crushers work against you and not the demons (though this does tie in with the fact that there isn't enough ammo to kill everything multiple times over). Like I've stated earlier that area feels very imbalanced and needs something to be done with it.

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