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Insane_Gazebo

Sunder - Map17 is here!

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I dig the midis from Blood you included.

I'm not good enough to play these without cheats, but I did take a glance at each map and I think they're all amazing, some of the coolest maps for Doom I've ever seen.

I was rather disappointed that you didn't include the first map from the original collection of unfinished maps you posted. I think I mentioned this before in this thread. If you don't include the map, at least include the midi that you used as it's one of the coolest pieces of music I've ever heard used in Doom. I just pulled it up again... and yes. It's one of the best. The way it accompanies the carnage in the game is truly amazing.

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Reaper978 said:

I dig the midis from Blood you included.

I'm not good enough to play these without cheats, but I did take a glance at each map and I think they're all amazing, some of the coolest maps for Doom I've ever seen.

I was rather disappointed that you didn't include the first map from the original collection of unfinished maps you posted. I think I mentioned this before in this thread. If you don't include the map, at least include the midi that you used as it's one of the coolest pieces of music I've ever heard used in Doom. I just pulled it up again... and yes. It's one of the best. The way it accompanies the carnage in the game is truly amazing.


It's actually a Nine Inch Nails song - "Something I can never have". I always liked how well it translated to the midi format. (Not all songs do.) I may have to re-imagine that map for the next set of maps :)

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I'm absolutely impressed by these levels. They are truly a work of genius.

Heh, map10 is the embodiment of all that is epic in doom.

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These are very impressive maps and some of the most beautiful I've seen recently, but I am disappointed that I will never have the skill necessary to play them.

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There's always the lazy shortcut way to implement difficulty settings: instead of tediously changing monster counts/types, just add a megasphere/invulnerability/maybe bfg here or there.. (I've thought about having a bunch of invulnerability spheres spell out 'you suck at doom lol' and have them only available on easy, heh).
I think I pm'd some bugs for maps 1,2,3 (like falling behind some decorative side lava-ish areas) earlier if you got that.
I don't know much about node building but entryway is very knowledgeable about all this type of technical stuff; if there's any weird problem with the wad still (like map 10 was previously causing errors.. and then the other weird previous error with frozen enemies) maybe he could figure out if there's anything technically wrong with the wad or nodebuilder or whatever).
Does anyone know if there is some sort of height limit for a wad? Like map 10 is maybe greater than 8000 'doom pixels' tall I think. I think there is a 'total level length' limit (one of timeofdeath's megawad maps exploited it, where the player clips through walls if the level is too long or something).

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As far as I know, all the bugs you found were fixed, except one switch glide thing which I wasn't too worried about. (In fact, you'll find the level 3 'lizard' gone and replaced with another 'turtle'.)

Map 10's had the nodes *properly* rebuilt now, and on my last attempt in prboomplus, didn't crash.

But yeah, while I think there's a limit, it's much bigger than my Map10 - it's just a matter of making a map that doesn't have so much in view at once.

I mean god, look at what that crazy man is doing for the new version of DVII:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2486/3681072086_06fff1a29a_o.jpg

That's far bigger than what I've done!

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Well, at least now I know exactly how much I suck at Doom. Died about 20 or so times just getting through the first map. :( It's pretty awesome so far though!

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gggmork said:

Does anyone know if there is some sort of height limit for a wad?

I noticed a visual glitch in prboom-plus before, I dunno if this relates to Sunder, but I did a test:

On that map, the two sectors have a different brightness. When I stand on the line that separates the sectors, I get the glitch.

normal - heightok.jpg
glitch - heightbad.jpg

The glitch seems to only happen when the sectors have a different brightness and when the height is ~8232+ units tall.

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I tried and got a similar glitch (also making ceiling = 30,000 and floor = -30,000 also results in not being able to walk through lines and stuff in addition to visual glitches).

I only downloaded the new sunder version just now. Only tested 2 maps in a weird order, none in between (but that new turtle is cool).

map2- hanging thing 258 blocks in prboom (its on the side of the level so not that significant)

map10-
beginning looks even better now, quite awesome. If I remember, the sky has small parts with dark pixely stuff or something; maybe that's just what the sky looks like (not like I'm one to talk about aesthetics when my maps are often barely even textured).

Doesn't matter but in prboomplus you can walk around the beginning trees (they might block better if 8/16ish pixels closer to ledge)

vile can blast you into 163 sect, unescapable (and similar triangles in that area probably).

on the side of line 6652 (in prboomplus), you can run in and kind of get wedged halfway with no way out since it barely fits doomguy- maybe could use a blocking wall or wider path (similar 4x corners in same area). also line 9156's side is similar but not as bad.

sect 596/597 still block reverents cuz its too thin probably, if that matters.

block sector 1183 never goes back down, so might prevent max kills

sector 243 & similar = i'd make only the first pole a lift (but textured so obvious which one is a lift).. as is, you can simply press use on the first pole then run to the end and go up on the last one. (those sectors are merged but to unmerge you can just draw a small square inside one of the pole squares, then connect the 4 inner square vertices to the parent pole sector's vertices).

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Thanks again gggmork, that's all fixed now.

As for those 'squares' in the sky - they were either two middle textures I forgot to align in an earlier version, or just my really bad re-colouring job of id softwares brown sky texture. (I've been staring at that sky for so long now, I'm annoyed I never noticed that problem.)

But hey, always bring up aesthetics - they're my faviroute topic :)

Now to go fix that sky texture...

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Gah. Just found a game breaking bug in Map08, which prevented the player from activating a rather vital lift.

Updated the OP with a new version, which fixes that, as well as several other misc. things on Map10 and others.

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10-

sect 1129 never goes back down; prevents max (I just ran by first cyber/etc horde so still had a large group back there).

line 11894 & 12387 block monster (unlikely bfg cyber off edge).

sky still had pixels



9-

at start, you can run out, get stuck behind line 529.. i guess the lava would kill you anyway (or run out onto those side ledges but doesn't matter)

line 7837 etc. kinda textured like switch but isn't a switch (doesn't matter much)

when sect 153 goes up, can run up stairs over top, get stuck opposite side.

I did an easy experiment and scaled all lines and things by 200%... the level plays a lot better like this actually (only tried the start areas though). It solves a few things: 1) increases visual floor distance so easier to see where you're going and not fall off w/o mouselook (I still think it definitely needs warps/lifts somewhere back up btw... though might be a bug to simply run from the start to the lift/warp to skip areas.). 2) makes the floor detail block less ground monsters (at normal size imps and stuff were blocked on stairs etc). 3) just generally more maneuverability/less confined
only 'bsp normal build' successfully built the nodes inside doombuilder 1 at 200% though. Didn't try 150%.




EDIT:

8-

possible probably but hard to glide to bfg @ start

can still push line 5891 from side while block is still up.


7-

maybe i'm wrong but type idfa at start and it seems like the rocket launcher is doing like half damage or something (maybe splash damage isn't working; perhaps another weird node glitch?)

line 2163 missing txtr

hanging thing 3273 = too tall or something, can see bottom through wall (others are fine)

that first cyber area door doesn't reopen afaik/prevents max

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Hey, good to see this finished. Sorry for dropping off the face of the Earth and shirking my testing duties. The new maps turned out AWESOME. Playing through them right now.

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gggmork said:

Stuff


Thanks again. Fixed most of that, but left a few things the way they are. I think it's fairly obvious, in regards to something like that switch in Map08, if someone triggers that, they're either cheating, or trying a speed run. I'm happy with that.

And your idea regarding Map09... damn. I wish I'd thought of that, that's a really good idea. In fact, I wish I'd thought of that earlier, because that map and all it's problems is really starting to get on my nerves :(

And welcome back Solarn, hope you enjoy it :)

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6- end berserk a bit hard to get in prboom = low to ground

5- exit bars look thin enough to glide through or can probably vile blast over top. didn't test much further.

I'm pretty sure a switch has to be 48 map units away to not be able to switch it but could be wrong (for map 8, but its your map so leave it as is if you want).

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Some issues found ...

MAP 03 ...

Player can get trapped at sector 320.

MAP 04 ...

Lines with METGRAT2 texture need to be flagged impassible. Especially lines 299, 485, 1627-31, 1633 and 1637.

MAP 07 ...

Lines like line 11600 have missing textures causing a render glitch in Risen3D.

MAP 10 ...

If the player is at sector 614, the player can run to line 11431, and be trapped by sectors 1106 if they have not lowered yet.

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Thanks Hawkwind. That's all fixed now.

I'll update the OP when I get around to playing with the scale of Map09. Hopefully that's the last thing left to do now.

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map01: Great stuff.
map02: Good until the last revenant horde. Seemed like too little ammo, and there's about 70-80 revenants too many (it's not that it would be too hard, it's just tedious)
map03: The second fight of the map made me rage quit after a few tries because of little space and obstructive detailing (compared to the monster horde's size).

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Butts said:

I'm absolutely impressed by these levels. They are truly a work of genius.

Heh, map10 is the embodiment of all that is epic in doom.


This.

Just, OMFG at MAP10.
I don't even feel like making maps anymore because this single map was basically my dream in one big level.

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There's something wrong with map08 in prboom+ concerning rockets: The splash damage (I guess it's that) doesn't always work. For example I had to shoot six rockets at a pain elemental, which all hit it, until it died. Other cases where this was pretty apparent was the hell knight horde coming from the room where there was a lot of barons and some masterminds on a platform, and the three mancubi in that same room were very resistant to rockets too.

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I must say I really like these maps architecture wise, the last few maps are extremely beautiful and really epic. My real gripe is that some of the maps are impossible for me to play because im no doom god. I would be ecstatic if u could follow the advice of gggmork and add some invul and megaspheres to the maps for lower difficulties. I find the difficulty to be a tad too much, mostly because of the lack of ammo and health in most maps in contrast to say Deus Vult where its still hard but doable with all the health and ammo. Especially in the later maps the lack of ammo is pretty absurd in my opinion. Id also love some secrets in these maps, maps without secrets are a bit empty for me. Other then that really good episode with the best maps being 8,9 and 10(the epic maps ;)), and a whole megawad would be really awesome so keep making these maps.

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My favourite maps are still 03 (The Dreaming Garden, which was originally 06) and 06 (The Grinder, which was originally 03). The Grinder because it was the first of the truly hard maps that I managed to complete (01 and 02 were hard, but not even remotely as hard as 03) and The Dreaming Garden because of the weird, almost surreal visual theme.

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Occasionally, I play Sunder on skill 1 and thanks to the double ammo and health I find it reasonably easy while still providing a decent challenge for us normal mortals.

Still, UV shouldn't be out of reach for most players, in these maps there's always at least one tactical option that doesn't require lightning fast reflexes. You're still left with the sheer length of the maps, but working with saves make it manageable - that is to say, not to die and reload, but to be able to stop in the middle of a map and resume playing later.

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Basically, if you want to beat these levels the normal way, you have to be a doom god. But if you think tactically and don't rush into fights, the maps become manageable (although still hellishly hard) and fun.

The easiest example that comes to mind is from The Grinder:

Spoiler

As the map loads, a player unused to Sunder's playing style would immediately start thinking about the best way to confront the monsters using what little cover he has and will invariably get fried by either the Arch-Vile on the ledge behind the thin metal pillar with the alcove (where the Spider Mastermind is) or the Imps and Knights on the gallery just right of the starting point. However, if you let the two Barons on the ground deal with the Imps in their way and then move about just enough to alert the Cybie, you can make it infight everything and clear your way with minimal effort. Then you can make the Mancubuses on the far ledge infight with the Barons to the left of them and push the switch, stay on the Mancubus platform or run back to the alcove (however, with Arch-Viles and Revenants having access to the stairs up to your ledge, it's no longer as safe as it was before), snipe the two or three Viles in the crowd from an advantageous position, then rush up the stairs, past the new Cybie and up to the ledge where the Revenants and Knights are probably already infighting. Clear them with the Super Shotgun, fight the Pain Elementals further ahead, and you've already got yourself a truly safe spot.

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Amazing looking maps for sure. No way i could finish these without god mode though :P Might play through on co-op sometime, looks like fun for that. Didn't have much problem with ammo overall, I think the key is to encourage infighting as much as possible.

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I know infighting is the key in these maps and Ive finished the first three maps pretty easily without dieing but the later maps are a different story altogether. Especially the monster placement in pale monument is pretty hard and I like to do maps demo style but thats pretty impossible in the later maps. Thats probably the problem with me that i always want to do it without saves :). I just love the adrenaline rush of having one life and the satisfaction afterwards, id love to see belial try to make demos of these maps btw.

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Damn, son. I used to think I was pretty good at Doom.

These maps are far, far beyond my skill, and some are beyond my computer's processing ability. I godmoded through just to check them out though, and they're very impressive. The Hag's Finger is the largest structure I've ever seen in Doom. A lighter version of this set, say, several thousand demons lighter, would be about perfect for me. :)

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