Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Solarn said:

I've finally completed Map03. It was fun. I skipped Map04 for now because I still die every time I try to do anything in the first room and now I'm on Map05. Feedback on that coming soon.

As for Map03, don't change anything (except maybe that stuck spiderdemon). It's perfect as it is. I had tons of fun playing it and the only part I needed any help for was the last room.

I'd currently recommend skipping Map05 for the same reason I'd recommend skipping Map04 - as I said in the original PM, it's unfinished as it is right now. (I did in fact, just finish re-balancing Map04, and I'll upload it when I finish the next map I just started making.)

And as I said in the post on the previous page, there's a bug which will prevent you from progressing past a certain wall which is supposed to lower.
There's also sections which I'd only roughed in - they're simply not possible without cheating yet.

So just hold off on testing it until I've got what I feel is a finished version, and have a look at Map06, Map08 and Map09 instead.

[Phml]

I'm with Solarn, map03 is just great. Even at the beginning there's different options to tackle that huge horde of monsters, and while many AV jumps are possible they are made very challenging by the number of monsters around and lack of health.

Even the end AV jump isn't so easy as I thought, replaying it I can see the first time was a fluke. With so many monsters teleporting in the last room it's pretty common for the archviles to end up infighting, more than once I started running to the exit with the flame on me only to see the AV switch targets at last second and let me fall into the lava. :)

Map02 - It does feel like it ends a little soon, doesn't it? I think it needs a little extra something to feel complete.

Now that you mention it, that's *exactly* what it feels like. It's like, starting area, revenant mouth tunnel, hell knight room, back to starting area, and it's already over.

Regardless, it is still a fine and fun map as it is. The fights can be made very easy - for example, all the stuff in the starting area will nicely stack (and infight) near the revvie tunnel, allowing the player to snipe easily with the RL - but I don't see this as a bad thing on map02.


As for FPS issues, to be fair I've had some slowdowns on map05 too (anytime I look at a spot with a bunch of torches). I'm using a fairly high end rig by 2007 standards, but I'm also playing on 1680x1050 with 4x AA and so on. I ought to make a second .cfg without all the graphic candy to try the biggest maps.

Forgot to mention, the reason you were probably confused as where to go on Map05, was due to a switch I broke ages ago - and a certain platform not lowering, allowing you to continue. (I have tried to set up teleporters and so on, to make it obvious where to go. Lets hope players don't get too lost... (They will!))

You know, I actually find map05 on Pacifist to be an enjoyable experience, and I'm the kind of player who disliked Eternal Doom. It's like a giant exploration puzzle with tricky jumps.

... Alright, I know I'm supposed to *fight* stuff too, but so far I've had so much fun on Pacifist I didn't try fighting. :)


I had a look on other maps, but as the difficulty ramps higher it'll take me longer to test these properly.


*Edit : I did some benchmarks with FRAPS, running through map04 and map05, and indeed I was wrong. Map05 slows down to 25-30 FPS sometimes, but Map04 is at 60 FPS all the time (capped by vsync).

It still feels sluggish somehow. I think it's the floor texture that plays tricks with my eyes - it's rather bland and pale, and there's large surfaces covered with this texture without breaks, and while having more detail walls have the same color as well.

That being said, my eyesight isn't perfect so it might not be the texture that is at fault here. :)


--

*Edit 2 : Just ran through map06.

Great map, fun fights. At first, the texture choice seemed weird, but after a while it all blends together. It's amazing how good you are with architecture, not only these maps play well but they're also fantastic to look at, each with a completely different look and feel.

Now, I think the map is way too easy - but note by this I mean "only as hard as a Hell Revealed map instead of the absolute insane slaughterfest that is a Sunder map". ;)

For starters, there's too much health and too much ammo. With these large, open areas, it isn't hard to avoid getting hit, especially as there's no hitscanner and the monsters will infight a lot. As for ammo, I spammed RL and Plasma for the whole map, hardly running out of ammo on these weapons (which means at all times I had a SSG with 100 shells to fall back on, anyway). I didn't kill everything, but there was plenty of ammo left.

I found the fights themselves to be rather easy. More detail :

The first room was alright and challenging, although once you get used to it it's rather straightforward to get the hell knights to infight the cyberdemon/mancubii, flip the switch, wait for the archvile to come in, run past it, grab the plasma rifle, kill the archvile, then snipe the remaining monsters without risk.

Having cleared the first room, the second fight is too easy as the revenants/barons all come out at the same spot in a tight formation, and the player has plenty of room to maneuver. Getting them to infight or dispatching them with the RL is trivial.

The cybie/demons fight isn't really dangerous either, unless the demons surround the doomguy while the cyberdemon has a clear light of sight - but that doesn't happen often, most likely it'll have demons in its way.

Up until that part, health balance was OK, but with the megasphere in the demons room it all goes downhill. The archviles aren't dangerous at all as they'll run right to sector 4 and stick there, rezzing stuff that won't move either if the Doomguy himself stays in sector 3 or 8. Easy to kill everything with RL splash damage, without taking a hit, so you go in the red key room with 200/200 and the option to pick up another blue armor and soulsphere when hurt.

Something else I considered is as the archviles weren't an issue, it should be easy to keep a few demons, say 5-6, behind the player in sector 3 after having killed the cyberdemon, and entering the red key room with them to keep the door open, making the next fights much easier as well. I didn't do it because I didn't feel the need for it, but it might be something to consider.

Moving on to the red key room, it could have been hard, especially for the first part with the cyberdemon and barons/hell knights, but it becomes too easy with all the health/ammo.

The imp/baron fight isn't much of a threat, either, but for this one I suppose you wanted to give the player a break after the previous fights that should have been harder.

The switch room is much better. I rushed to the invul sphere like a kid reaching for candy and met my demise. :)

Other than that, the switchhunt and the fights were good in this room. With so many monsters and no BFG, the invul sphere doesn't last long enough to get rid of them all ; however, I found it easy to stay up and pop in, pop out for a few shots. More cacodemons and/or adding lost souls and pain elementals might help with this.


I don't want this to sound negative, again I had a lot of fun during the whole map, the only problem is that I finished it in about 3-4 tries, while, for reference, map01 and map02 took me more than 10 attempts each. Most of the fights would be very challenging if there wasn't so much ammo and health available.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

Map06 Stuff.

Thanks again. Very helpful feedback.

It would appear in my haste to make the map a bit easier, I removed a few too many monsters, and left too much health and ammo in.

Originally, each room had roughly double the monsters they currently do. It felt too cramped.

Also, the layout was one of my first layouts - and it's honestly one of my weaker ones. Oh well, I'm getting some ideas on how to address most of the issues you've put forward, and make the map challenging again...

[Phml]

On to Map08 - which, from now on, will be known as "Did I mess up and load up Doom 3 ?"

All joking aside, it was a great map. I haven't completed it yet the way it's intended - I did a few normal runs that ended in the barons + revenants room (behind the archvile), and a silent pacifist run until the last room.

The first fight is great, lots of options there. Waking up the archvile and letting him infight the cyberdemon, attacking the cyberdemon while other monsters whack on him, running straight to the crusher/chaingunner room... I have only one concern : the windows in the start room make it possible to shoot and kill the cyberdemon without it being able to retaliate.

Now the crusher/chaingunner room. Avoiding the hellknights and not getting shot too much or crushed is tough, almost tedious because of the darkness, but I feel it's just right as it is.

On silent pacifist, as the HKs won't spawn it's easier to hide in a corner after the first two switches while the remaining two lower. The crushers will provide cover most of the time. On the other hand, avoiding the chaingunners while going up to activate the final switch is much harder so it kind of balances out.

To the next room. It's rather hectic on a normal run, being between the hammer and the anvil with barons on one side and revenants on the other. Again, it's still just right, extremely challenging but not unfair or impossible. On silent pacifist, this room is super easy as avoiding just the revenants is cake.

From now on I just played the following in pacifist, I'll post more on normal runs later but I expect it'll take me much longer to do it the normal way.

The next two circle-shaped rooms were trivial as there's no monsters. The lava room was harder, as it is tricky to balance getting hit by chaingunners, losing life from lava or getting crushed.

Finally, the final room was ridiculous, in a "ridiculously awesome" kind of way. As the walls opened and the blue door closed there was obviously no point in staying pacifist so I started shooting stuff. The sheer amount of monsters make it easy to get cornered, still there's lots of space and an invul sphere so it never feels impossible.

Back sidedefs 3123, 7483, 7468 and 7433 are missing an upper texture, causing a HOM when the crusher crushes. Other than that, I didn't spot anything.

Personal pet peeve : I understand the darkness adds to the challenge and the ambiance, but I believe this map is already hard enough without that. While I kept the light level as intended for testing, in normal play I know I'd just crank up ambient light level to maximum and call it a day. The map being so dark also hides the architecture that is, once again, great to look at. I'm aware it could be just me, and I'm not suggesting anything drastic, but I think increasing most light levels by 5 or 10 would improve the experience while retaining the feel of the map.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

Map08 Stuff.

I was a little worried about the light levels. While I can just see okay on my monitor, some of the screenshots I had taken did look a little dark on other monitors when I looked at them. Might be best to make the map a touch brighter, just to be safe I guess?

I'll probably remove the pacifist route too, and force the player to shoot a switch to open the first door. :)

Also, in the final room, there's a teleporter at the top and bottom of the room to help navigate the crowds.

Updated the OP - Added a screenshot of a new map I've been working on, which should be ready for testing shortly.

[Kyka]

I am so stoked to see that this mapset seems to have gone from "Here are some maps that I threw together. They are not really finished, but what the hell..." to "Hmmm, I wonder if this should be worked on to become a polished, finished mapset."

Awesome. Keep it up. These maps simply look amazing.

[Phml]

Just played, or should I say exploited, map04, as I spent more time trying to find tricks than genuinely playing. :)

I ended up with a rather weird run, so I'll just tell you what I did.

The player start seems overwhelming at first, but it's easy enough to force infighting then hide near the stairs in either sector 348 or the top of sector 317, as a mancubus will get stuck in the way and block all other monsters. My preference goes to sector 348 (the first pool of blood), because you can actually jump from the baron/hellknight platform to sector 81 and, despite the torches, glide to sector 541 (the other pool of blood with that teleporter) where there's no monsters, then go up and pick up a megasphere and lots of ammo. It's easy then to avoid triggering the linedef 4778 that lowers down the cyberdemons/cacodemons room by strafing to the imp platform and fighting from there.

At that point I cleared all the monsters in the main area, and ran to the blue armor (not picking it, just triggering the archviles teleport). Running back fast to them can lure them to the top of sector 317, from there I got on the stairs, let one AV jump propel me to the switch (linedef 1827), which allowed me to bypass the mancubus, revenants and imps.

From that spot, another AV jump sent me to sector 155, which allows me to bypass the spider mastermind, barons and hell knights, and run straight to the BFG trigger. I picked up medikits, the soulsphere and blue armor, and ran back to the stairs so the archviles near the switch would follow and send me back to the other path, without having to fight all the monsters. From then I ran to the BFG room, picked it up, picked up the other blue armor and soulsphere, got the AVs to propel me again the other way, ran to the east of sector 242, let the AVs propel me on sector 81 to reach the other way (sector 591), flipped the three switches without much trouble, as there were only revvies, imps and a few mancubus.

Now the final room was plain impossible. Few ammo and no health, to fight these hordes of monsters. Granted, I didn't find the berserk pack and the switch lowering the door, if I could have ran back out it would have been possible. I just IDDQD'd my way through the end with infinite ammo, as I had no time left to play.

So, reading my review you can see I bypassed a good half of the map, if not more. The torch glide in particular makes the start way too easy ; also, either replacing the mancubus by thinner monsters or giving more room for them not to get stuck (linedefs 1325, 1358) could be a good idea to keep pressure on the player.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

Map04 stuff.

As I said in an earlier post Phml, the version of Map04 you have is only roughed in, in terms of monster layout, health, and so on. The current version of the wad I have, has a heavily modified version of the map, with no arch-viles, and numerous tweaks to monsters/health/ammo etc.

As for the final room, though, I could have sworn, even in that old version, that it did at least have enough health? (One megasphere, and a number of medkits.) Ammo was indeed a big problem though, which has since been fixed. (I hope.)

[Phml]

Alright. I was aware of that, but wasn't sure to what extent you were going to rework map04 so decided to post about it anyway. :)

Now that you mention it, there was a megasphere at the entrance, but no medikits.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Kyka said:

I am so stoked to see that this mapset seems to have gone from "Here are some maps that I threw together. They are not really finished, but what the hell..." to "Hmmm, I wonder if this should be worked on to become a polished, finished mapset."

Awesome. Keep it up. These maps simply look amazing.

Cheers :) It had always been my intention to make these maps the best I could, but what I considered good has changed quite dramatically while I've been working on this.

Phml said:

Alright. I was aware of that, but wasn't sure to what extent you were going to rework map04 so decided to post about it anyway. :)

Now that you mention it, there was a megasphere at the entrance, but no medikits.

Ah okay. Should be able to give you the new version fairly soon :)

[Phml]

Map07 - "So they did port Hard Mario to Doom."

Very fun map, also frustrating at times which makes it feel even better once you finally get to the end.

From now on, any lone pain elemental that cross my road is going to get a BFG blast coming its way, though. ;)

The fights flowed well, ammo and health balance seemed to be just right (that is, there's more than what's needed with great/perfect aim, but considering the pain elementals and having to balance aiming your gun with... aiming your feet, I could and did use the extra ammo).

One problem was with the switches. Every switch can be activated before the sector covering them is lowered. This makes several fights much easier than intended, especially the final one as you can just flip the exit switch and run back to the exit before anything even gets a chance to shoot at you.

It was also possible to jump from the SW edge of sector 137 to the NE edge of sector 155, allowing the player to clear the two revenants room safely. Then, climbing to sector 173, it is possible to shoot and kill the cyberdemon while it's still in its box. Running back to pick up the soulsphere and trigger the walls lowering down, the doomguy will only have to fight a handful of hellknights and barons.

It's also possible to AV jump your way to the exit, either with the first archvile you see (hard, as it is most likely he'll take splash damage from all the other monsters with him) or the teleporting archviles later on (easy ; just kill all of them except one, sit on sector 613 or 614, and there you go).

Overall, it was a fun, fastpaced platformer experience, very challenging if you don't exploit it. It seems like it could fit well between two slaughtermaps - in fact I thought its current spot, between 06 and 08, was alright.

A last, completely subjective note : I thought these huge lavafalls (sectors 563, 569, 575) didn't look as great as the rest of the architexture - which was, once again, awesome to look at.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

Map07 - "So they did port Hard Mario to Doom?"

Thanks again for the feedback and so on.

GGGMork beat you to reporting that switch problem, and I've had a look at trying to find a quick and elegant solution to the problem... so far, no luck. Might just have to block them with vertical bars or something.

I also wasn't totally sold on how the lava things looked... yeah, they're gone now :P

I also recently took another look at Map05, taking a look at what needed to be rebalanced and so on and... fuck.

The map is a complete god damned mess. It's also just over 17,000 Lines. It's really damned depressing knowing I'm going to have to delete several thousand of them if I'm going to get it to play in such a way that's even remotely fun. I mean, I can see a single fight in the map which I currently want to keep as it is.

And of course, the next trouble maker is Map07 (Hag's Finger), at just over 9000 Lines, and running like utter crap... and I'm at a loss at how to fix it. Maybe I should just start over and make a smaller version? :(

Oh well, the only thing other than those two nightmares left to fix currently is the switch bug on Precarious... Yay!

[gggmork]

I think map 4 has a similar switch problem (that first switch behind 3 slanted square pillars). Also the one that opens the door to the large main end area.

And for the hag's finger, I had it running normal speed, just had to sacrifice a bit of perimeter space if that matters. Want me to send you the normal speed version?

edit: the perimeter space didn't end up mattering if I used 'bsp-w32.exe' as a nodebuilder (the others have trouble building nodes for such a large map or something if used inside doombuilder). But thing count slowed down zdoom (was normal speed in prboomplus even with all the current things for me).

[Insane_Gazebo]

gggmork said:

I think map 4 has a similar switch problem (that first switch behind 3 slanted square pillars). Also the one that opens the door to the large main end area.

And for the hag's finger, I had it running normal speed, just had to sacrifice a bit of perimeter space if that matters. Want me to send you the normal speed version?

Yeah, looks like you're right. I fixed the second one that opens the door, but the first one, because of the slant, (and specifically, the gap between them and the wall) allows you to activate the switch. Looks like I totally forgot about it. Still, looks like a single sided line blocked even by the thinest of sectors blocks switches no problems.

Yeah, I'd love it (Hag's). I played with it quite a lot in that regard, and had no luck. Every version I made turned out with the same problem. I was getting ready to completely rebuild it. (Which, once I get the time, I'm going to do with Map05.)

[Insane_Gazebo]

Just a bump to prove that me and the project are not dead.

Thanks to studies, I haven't had much time to map, and the mapping I've got done has proceeded extremely slowly.

Almost all the maps have had all their bugs fixed, now. There's two that I'm aware of left for me to fix.

All the maps are now in their final order, based on difficulty and the weapons avaliable in each map. (I didn't want people playing these in order, to get the BFG too early.)

I recently finished re-building what was previously Map07 (which is now Map10), and it's looking something like this:

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9350/sunderhagsnew1.jpg

I'd guess that it is roughly 80 - 85% finished.

Once that it is done, all that's needed is for me to go back and rebuild Map05 (now Map09), and tweak a few of the maps I'm not quite happy with. After that, I'll upload it.

Much like what is being done with Scythe-X, these first 10 maps are just the first 'episode', and I plan to do more later.

[gggmork]

Hopefully whatever same slowdown bug won't happen on 7 again if you're redoing it from scratch. Maybe it was just thing count but I don't really know at all.

[Insane_Gazebo]

gggmork said:

Hopefully whatever same slowdown bug won't happen on 7 again if you're redoing it from scratch. Maybe it was just thing count but I don't really know at all.

The thing count was part of the problem...

The main problem was the way the map was built - build a wall, raise its floor height above what the player can see, and it would seem as if it renders what's beyond it. (I even discovered, that 2000 monster corpses slows ZDoom down more than the same 2000 monsters if they're idle.)

What you're looking at is 50% the size of the original. It doesn't run perfectly, and slows down a bit in places, but it's playable. (At least, on my machine, and that's in software mode in ZDoom - it's a lot faster in GZDoom in GL mode, and PrBoom+ of course.)

[Insane_Gazebo]

Bump for semi-public release enjoyement. (Check the OP for details.)

[entryway]

Insane_Gazebo said:

What you're looking at is 50% the size of the original. It doesn't run perfectly, and slows down a bit in places, but it's playable. (At least, on my machine, and that's in software mode in ZDoom - it's a lot faster in GZDoom in GL mode, and PrBoom+ of course.)

Start location of map10 on my work computer (E5200 @ 2.5GHz) at 640x480

eternity - 29 fps
zdoom - 48 fps
gzdoom - 28 fps
prboom 2.5.0 - 68 fps
glboom 2.5.0 - 48 fps
prboom-plus 2.5.0.3 - 66 fps
glboom-plus 2.5.0.3 - 96 fps

[Phml]

I've had a playthrough through all maps again (although much of that has been IDDQD runs to try to "break" the maps and check out the changes for now), here's some thoughts :

Map02 : Entering the hell knight room, it's possible to go straight for the stairs and skip linedef 3644 and 3646, basically skipping the whole fight.

I love the new final fight, it's the little something that map was missing to feel complete.

Map04 : My previous comments about the map being too dark were my own mistake, I'm playing at 0.8 brightness usually (above that it looks washed out on my screen).

Map06 : It's still relatively easy to pick up the invul sphere, jump on sector 483 and wait for an AV jump, skipping the final fight.

Map07 : Linedef 15588 has a misaligned texture.

Map08 : The torch glide is still possible at linedef 1323 and 1322.

Map09 : Now runs at 60 FPS most of the time, with rare drops to 40ish. No issue for me anymore.

Linedef 9629 can be activated before the sectors around it lower. In sector 97, due to the shape of that room and the stairs in the middle, sitting on the south-east corner after activating the first switch will make all the monsters pile up on the south-west corner. It is possible to skip the whole fight in sector 631 by quickly running in after activating the switch in linedef 11297 ; as the floor isn't done lowering yet, it won't go back up. Then, you can walk on linedef 10696, let sector 658 go back up and walk on the walls to avoid linedef 10395, avoiding all the fights in that room too.

Map10 : Ran at 60 FPS most of the time on my rig, but with frequent drops to 30-40. That's still playable... and it's worth the FPS drop, anyway. You've really outdone yourself on this one. :)

Lava isn't set to damage the player yet.

Despite the chaingunner near the switch, it is possible to play Pacifist until the revenant horde behind linedef 8665, making the map much easier than intended. I suppose with some clever infighting you could get the cybie to kill enough revenants to let you wade through that horde and play the whole map in Pacifist, breaking the climatic fight as well.

Switch concerns :
Linedef 9941 can be activated through the pillars (right side). There's enough room between the diagonal pillars to allow access to the linedef 8993 switch. Linedef 10137 can be actived through the pillars.

Ammo concerns :
During the final fight, things can get hectic easily and having multiple stacks of ammo boxes at the same place can lead to wasted ammo.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Some of the issues you have pointed out, have been fixed in the newer version of the OP :)

Well, except:

Map02 HK Room. Totally forgot about that, thanks.

Map06 Cool jump :) Blocked off now!

Map08 Okay. I THINK THAT IS FINALLY FIXED NOW. Damn it, I'd always fall off and think hey, I've finally blocked it! (No, no I hadn't.)

Map 09 Some of these were fixed, some weren't. I've changed a couple of things though. As for sector 658 - while you can still just sit on the door, there's now no benefit as you can no longer walk on the nearby walls.

Map 10 Fixed the switches I missed. Lava was fixed in the newer version. I didn't have any trouble picking up too much ammo during the fight myself... but we'll see what other people have to say, I guess.
As for the pacificst route, I'm at a loss at how to fix that right now... though it's possible I might keep it, or just make it harder, just for kicks and people who like doing pacifist runs.

Phml said:

I've had a playthrough through all maps again (although much of that has been IDDQD runs to try to "break" the maps and check out the changes for now), here's some thoughts :

Map02 : Entering the hell knight room, it's possible to go straight for the stairs and skip linedef 3644 and 3646, basically skipping the whole fight.

I love the new final fight, it's the little something that map was missing to feel complete.

Map04 : My previous comments about the map being too dark were my own mistake, I'm playing at 0.8 brightness usually (above that it looks washed out on my screen).

Map06 : It's still relatively easy to pick up the invul sphere, jump on sector 483 and wait for an AV jump, skipping the final fight.

Map07 : Linedef 15588 has a misaligned texture.

Map08 : The torch glide is still possible at linedef 1323 and 1322.

Map09 : Now runs at 60 FPS most of the time, with rare drops to 40ish. No issue for me anymore.

Linedef 9629 can be activated before the sectors around it lower. In sector 97, due to the shape of that room and the stairs in the middle, sitting on the south-east corner after activating the first switch will make all the monsters pile up on the south-west corner. It is possible to skip the whole fight in sector 631 by quickly running in after activating the switch in linedef 11297 ; as the floor isn't done lowering yet, it won't go back up. Then, you can walk on linedef 10696, let sector 658 go back up and walk on the walls to avoid linedef 10395, avoiding all the fights in that room too.

Map10 : Ran at 60 FPS most of the time on my rig, but with frequent drops to 30-40. That's still playable... and it's worth the FPS drop, anyway. You've really outdone yourself on this one. :)

Lava isn't set to damage the player yet.

Despite the chaingunner near the switch, it is possible to play Pacifist until the revenant horde behind linedef 8665, making the map much easier than intended. I suppose with some clever infighting you could get the cybie to kill enough revenants to let you wade through that horde and play the whole map in Pacifist, breaking the climatic fight as well.

Switch concerns :
Linedef 9941 can be activated through the pillars (right side). There's enough room between the diagonal pillars to allow access to the linedef 8993 switch. Linedef 10137 can be actived through the pillars.

Ammo concerns :
During the final fight, things can get hectic easily and having multiple stacks of ammo boxes at the same place can lead to wasted ammo.

[Phml]

As for the pacificst route, I'm at a loss at how to fix that right now...

Changing the first switch to a shootable one should do the trick, shouldn't it ?

Sorry for posting fixed issues, I just assumed this was the same version as the one you sent me yesterday. You work fast. ;)

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

Changing the first switch to a shootable one should do the trick, shouldn't it ?

Sorry for posting fixed issues, I just assumed this was the same version as the one you sent me yesterday. You work fast. ;)

Not too fast, I hope. Updated the OP with a new version...

Turns out, the reason you can easily get past the HWG without shooting him, was due to a monster blocking line. Now him, and his new friend are a bit more aggresive, making a pacifist run a great deal more difficult.

I think that's everything fixed now... although I just had a terrible thought.

[gggmork]

If you run into more nodebuilder problems, this thread might help:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-builder/40690-node-builder-does-not-want-to-work-from-doombuilder/

[Phml]

PrBoom+ crashes with the new version on map10 when I attack, giving me the usual signal 11 error. Note the chaingunners don't attack me, looks like a node problem ?

On GZDoom, I get one dude to attack the other and lure the other one outside of the structure, then carry on as usual. :p

[Insane_Gazebo]

Phml said:

PrBoom+ crashes with the new version on map10 when I attack, giving me the usual signal 11 error. Note the chaingunners don't attack me, looks like a node problem ?

On GZDoom, I get one dude to attack the other and lure the other one outside of the structure, then carry on as usual. :p

I was wondering why the size of my wad shrunk... yeah, looks like the nodes broke again. =/


And gggmork, I tried the fixes suggested in that thread, and zdpsb gave me the following warning:

"SEGS is too big for vanilla Doom and most ports. (33091 segs)
BLOCKMAP is so big that ports will have to recreate it.
Vanilla Doom cannot handle it at all. If this map is for ZDoom 2+,
you should use the -b switch to save space in the wad.
0.558 seconds."

The compiled map refused to run in PrBoom-Plus, sadly. :(

[entryway]

Insane_Gazebo said:

"SEGS is too big for vanilla Doom and most ports. (33091 segs)
BLOCKMAP is so big that ports will have to recreate it.
Vanilla Doom cannot handle it at all. If this map is for ZDoom 2+,
you should use the -b switch to save space in the wad.
0.558 seconds."

The compiled map refused to run in PrBoom-Plus, sadly. :(

PrBoom-Plus can handle big levels easily. BLOCKMAP overflow should not be a problem. It should not be a problem even for Boom. If wad does not work then you did something wrong.

[Insane_Gazebo]

entryway said:

PrBoom-Plus can handle big levels easily. BLOCKMAP overflow should not be a problem. It should not be a problem even for Boom. If wad does not work then you did something wrong.

Apparantly 'doing something wrong', wasn't crossing my fingers hard enough before a node compile or something. (Maybe Huy has a few rituals I can borrow in that regard...)

But yeah, it was failing to compile properly, and telling me the node building was successful. (ZDoom didn't seem to act up when I'd play the map, but PrBoom-Plus would either crash, or act strangely.)

Anyway, try version 1.1 That seemed to be working when I gave it a go.

[entryway]

Insane_Gazebo said:

ZDoom didn't seem to act up

zdoom does not require nodes at all. prboom requires.

[arrrgh]

"require" ;)