Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

[kristus]

I still got the bug in PrBoom. So I dunno how that can be.

[entryway]

kristus said:

I still got the bug in PrBoom. So I dunno how that can be.

I do not know precisely what bug you are talking about, but probably you are using 10 years old prboom or something

[kristus]

My mistake. It turns out the PRBoom version I got was quite old. It was from 2004. I can't recall where I decided to download it. But I did so this summer, and I did expect it at that point to be the latest version.

EDIT: Oh, it seems like when you hit Download NOW on the PRBoom website, you don't actually get the latest version. You get some version called 2.1.1 or something.

[Quasar]

I didn't spend hours snooping around the GZDoom SVN log to find out where that change came from, nor did I directly adapt it by cutting and pasting - I "coded it myself" after looking at how it should be done; granted the code ended up pretty much the same anyway.

So sorry if it seems like I was giving credit to the wrong people. Both ZDoom and PrBoom-Plus are already credited in Eternity's file as ports from which code has been taken (and zdoom-license.txt is provided to cover those parts of the code which are considered to be under the BSD license too).

Nor did I know beforehand that the R_PointToAngle fix would repair Sunder maps 5 and 10, but I suspected so since a large chunk of the level would disappear when viewed from a certain point but turning from angle 41 to 46.

[Graf Zahl]

Quasar said:

granted the code ended up pretty much the same anyway.

The code I wrote for ZDoom was not taken from PrBoom. I did it before checking other ports. But due to the specific needs the end result was inevitably identical except for source formatting.

[myk]

kristus said:
Oh, it seems like when you hit Download NOW on the PRBoom website, you don't actually get the latest version. You get some version called 2.1.1 or something.

Hmm, this is true indeed. It's bound to confuse a lot of people and leave them with the wrong version. It affected you, and you're a regular DOOM user and mod maker... imagine some newer guy.

I reported it.

[Fletcher`]

σ_σ This is insane. Love the designs, but wow, the hordes can be frustrating at times.

[Belial]

map03: linedef 3674 should be SR, not S1

[Insane_Gazebo]

Belial said:

map03: linedef 3674 should be SR, not S1

God damn it. I knew exactly which line you meant before I checked it too. Hah.

Thanks for the youtube vids as well Okuplok - great to be able to see these maps are possible in one clean run :) (Which, funnily enough, wasn't my original intention. Oh well, plenty of free map slots :D)

Finally got the mapping bug again, so here's a shot of a Map12, which I started the other day:

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5157/sundermap121e.jpg

Hopefully by the time this is done I can go back and fix Map11. (Pitty it's too big for anything but ZDoom, though.)

[Solarn]

Insane_Gazebo said:

God damn it. I knew exactly which line you meant before I checked it too. Hah.

Thanks for the youtube vids as well Okuplok - great to be able to see these maps are possible in one clean run :) (Which, funnily enough, wasn't my original intention. Oh well, plenty of free map slots :D)

Finally got the mapping bug again, so here's a shot of a Map12, which I started the other day:

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5157/sundermap121e.jpg

Hopefully by the time this is done I can go back and fix Map11. (Pitty it's too big for anything but ZDoom, though.)

Nice shot. The Furnace is terribly fun, although I'm annoyed by the large number of damaging floors in the first two areas. Maybe you should make the lava in the first trap area (the large room with the thick pillar in the center where the walls open to reveal imps, hell knights, revenants and archviles) non-damaging.

I'm also not quite sure if there's enough ammo in the map to kill everything, at least if you include the optional areas (the revenant and hell knight ledges you can get to from the first area).

I really love the epic scope of the map. It really is a pity that only zdbsp can build the nodes for it, because I'd love for the entire pack to be playable in PrBoom+.

EDIT: You know, before I started playing Sunder, I had problems even with regular Doom maps on UV. Now I'm starting to require this kind of insane difficulty to have fun.

[Insane_Gazebo]

Solarn said:

You know, before I started playing Sunder, I had problems even with regular Doom maps on UV. Now I'm starting to require this kind of insane difficulty to have fun.

Bwuahaha! Welcome to my world :P

[Phml]

I'm also not quite sure if there's enough ammo in the map to kill everything

In the version I played, there was, with some overkill even (though this should be normal in a ZDoom-based port).

The Map12 shot looks great, can't wait to see how it turns out.

[DeletedUser]

Excuse me but I am highly distraught at the mention of players indulging in the apparent completion of "The Furnace" however upon scanning the latest release it does not appear to be included which leads me to believe Gazebo has been sending snippets to play testers without any consultation on my behalf :( Considering this is indeed my favourite WAD I would be enthralled to both experience and comment on any balancing issues. On the otherhand judging from Solarn's comments, it appears MAP11 is only compatible with ZDOOM due to the sheer size.. a great pity! I despise that port with a passion as far as gameplay is concerned, lacking the ability to craft an authentic experience unlike the beauty of PRBoom <3

Before I discovered Sunder I was somewhat bored of Doom in the sense that nothing challenged me to an excruciating level. Not only have you accomplished this but I find your maps extradonarily addicting! Merely due to the intensity and volatilty of the combat you can never be certain you'll blaze through massacring all with a carefully planned strategy from previous playthroughs. MAP10 is notable for this, herding the swarm at the beginning, controlling the Pain Elemental horde and the final encounter are all terribly fiendish for me :] In that they provoke the most anxiety and that's just the way I like my DOOM. Challenging, intense and requiring tactical thinking.

Also my goodness Okuplok certainly blew every one of my criticisms concerning "The Cage" out of the water! He doesn't even require every Invulnerability towards the final battles!

MAP12 provides an intriguing fusion, the dark lighting makes me compare it with "Metal Descendants" and the wood texturing reminds of "Grinder" and "Hollow Icon" but offering a far more claustrophobic environment.

[Manc]

Odamex revision 1488 implements a first pass of the R_PointToAngle2 changes. It needs more testing I think.

I'm not ashamed to say that I took it all from EE r975-r979 where applicable. Thanks a lot Quasar! (And thanks to kristus for testing this so we would know!)

As far as the maps themselves - I tried them, and this stuff is too rich for my blood, even after watching that youtube video. It's some seriously tough stuff, and it looks fantastic overall thematically.

[TimeOfDeath]

Bloodite Krypto said:

I despise that port with a passion as far as gameplay is concerned, lacking the ability to craft an authentic experience unlike the beauty of PRBoom <3

While there are some small differences between zdoom and prboom, even when you use classic settings in zdoom, I'm not sure why you would despise it - I don't think it's THAT different.

Bloodite Krypto said:

Before I discovered Sunder I was somewhat bored of Doom in the sense that nothing challenged me to an excruciating level.

Have you tried other hard wads?

[Quasar]

So I'm guessing EE will need to get around to adding zdoom node format support to continue running this? :P

[DeletedUser]

TimeOfDeath said:

Have you tried other hard wads?

You should have re-phrased to 'Which hard wads have you played?' :P

Death-Destiny
Crimson Horizon
Dark Resolution 2008 - MAP10 - The Soul Scarred Universe, MAP11 - Lich
Disturbia
Grime
No Chance (Admire this one greatly for taking the elements of X-treme's devious and in most cases sudden death ambushes and implementing them without having the gameplay based on a degree of luck. The difficulty stemmed from working out the correct tactic for each battle, however with savestates I conquered it in 43:34 have to try it again one day without saving.)

Admitedly I admire Death-Destiny's creative style of utilizing fiendish ambushes which can kill you within a split second if one does not react sharply and has a tendancy to rush. His is a unique style of mapping, proving swarms of monsters aren't required to create an intensely challenging map. Would appreciate to hear of any more maps in a similar style.

Erik Alm
X-treme

Awaiting to play
Belial's Bad Brain
Bloodlust
Elysion
Murderous Intent
Napalm
The Horror Collection
XXXI Cybersky

Downloaded a number of Alexander "Eternal" S. (aka Deadall) maps, Generator of Evil is proving to be substantially enjoyable although I feel the abundance of powerups severely cripples the challenge.

Needless to mention 'Deus Vult II' which I found surprisingly easy, particularly 'Hell's Vendetta' where you can slam into the initial hordes and re-charge with the number of powerups and ammo scattered around.

[Solarn]

So... I'm still doing MAP11. It's still awesome, but I think I've done something wrong because I just got past the imp stairway with no rockets or cells and minimal health and no armor. And there's nothing to replenish my health or armor beyond it except for a soulsphere. And the revenants on the optionally accessible ledge are murdering me horribly whenever I try to go back to scavenge for some health.

This is like if The Hag's Finger was also The Cage. Sunder's previous most monster-packed level also being the most sadistically deadly one. That's something I don't even want to think about, except I'm playing it.

I'm guessing when the next ten levels are completed, this won't be 11 anymore? Like the way the first ten levels were rearranged after they were complete?

[Belial]

Bloodite Krypto said:

Downloaded a number of Alexander "Eternal" S. (aka Deadall) maps

Don't miss his map in freak4.wad.

[Khaoscythe]

Belial said:

Don't miss his map in freak4.wad.

I vaguely remember this one...but just seeing that wad file brings up reminders. *re-downloads*

EDIT: Yep I remember playing the crap out of this one...lol

[Phml]

@Solarn - I'm surprised you feel that way as for me, Map11 felt easier than the previous ones. Just wondering : do you use mouselook ? As the map has so much height variation, I'm wondering if that is what might have made the map "too"* easy for me.

* I didn't mind not getting brutally murdered for once, but I don't think Insane_Gazebo shared my enthusiasm on that particular point !

It's unfortunate it doesn't work in PrBoom+ for demos, though if Quasar chooses to implement ZDoom nodes Eternity would be an option - in fact, the only one. Being the only port that could record Sunder demos might lead more people to use the port. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge. ;)

[Solarn]

Phml said:

@Solarn - I'm surprised you feel that way as for me, Map11 felt easier than the previous ones. Just wondering : do you use mouselook ? As the map has so much height variation, I'm wondering if that is what might have made the map "too"* easy for me.

* I didn't mind not getting brutally murdered for once, but I don't think Insane_Gazebo shared my enthusiasm on that particular point !

It's unfortunate it doesn't work in PrBoom+ for demos, though if Quasar chooses to implement ZDoom nodes Eternity would be an option - in fact, the only one. Being the only port that could record Sunder demos might lead more people to use the port. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge. ;)

Nope, no mouselook. After all, Sunder is still a Boom WAD at its core, even if ZDoom nodes were needed for the latest level, so I'm not using any ZDoom features while playing it.

[Phml]

Gotcha. I think that would explain the discrepancy, along with other things such as infinitely tall monsters and rocket splash damage, if you play in ZDoom Boom compat. I need to give that map another proper run (or at least as close as you can have it on ZDoom, anyway).

[The Ultimate DooMer]

This gets the official seal of approval from me...not only in looks and themes (some really creative ones there, I'm looking at you map 08) but some of the cleverest gameplay I've seen in ages (looking at you map 04). And I'm proud to say I defeated everything on -fast without using cheats. Naturally I needed some extreme tactics, including some outside-the-box and possibly exploitative ones...but hey, it's not intended for -fast so I can use the full range of tactics that aren't intended either :P

And it's those kind of maps I like best...ones that make me really think up ways like that. Many set-pieces looked impossible at first sight, but after a closer look a solution emerged. Frustrating at times, and there was always that back-of-your-mind thought that eventually I'd come unstuck...but hair-raising and satisfying too. And possibly deserves the title of hardest wad ever...albeit in a different way to Titan 2 map 07 (as the difficulty there was map-wide, here the top bits were concentrated into set-pieces)

Legendary.

[Insane_Gazebo]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Had some fun!

Great to see you enjoyed it :) More maps are comming!

And on that note, I thought I should fill those in interested in where I'm at right now:

Still haven't finished up Map11 (I'll wait until the next official DB2 build), and am completely stuck in regards to Map12. (It's just not cooperating, both in terms of it's layout, and it's visual theme.)

Should be out of this 'creative-rut' soon, so you should see more frequent updates with in the comming month, I hope.

[Deeforce]

Can you please use new textures only? This would be great, because there are so many wads (too many :-P) that have the original textures in them. Maybe you can overhaul your levels?

[Phml]

Should be out of this 'creative-rut' soon, so you should see more frequent updates with in the comming month, I hope.

That's good to hear. :)

[Solarn]

Deeforce said:

Can you please use new textures only? This would be great, because there are so many wads (too many :-P) that have the original textures in them. Maybe you can overhaul your levels?

I can't tell if you are joking or being serious.

[TimeOfDeath]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

And possibly deserves the title of hardest wad ever...

darkdave's maps are harder. Plus, having that title is dumb, since anyone can just make hard maps that are literally impossible.

[DeletedUser]

The question of difficulty is up to speculation based on the experience of the individual player, analysing the challenge without any thorough interpretation is naive and more importantly is based on the design of the map itself. If anything it can be agreed that the architecture and look of each map is certainly intuitive and theirs a certain keen eye in the strategic placement of enemies creating an extradonary high replay value imo in comparison to the majority of other quick to dull slaughter wads.

Here's an old demo I've yet to upload

MAP03 - The Dreaming Garden - UV-Max in 15:08