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Insane_Gazebo

Sunder - Map19 Arrives.

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16 minutes ago, Krull said:

 What is the compatibility level for this, anyway?

9 works just fine for me, with PrBoom-Plus v2.5.1.4.

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17 hours ago, j4rio said:

In any case, I can't think of any reason why a custom monster would break in different prb+ versions.

 

One thing I know changed in prb's implementation of deh at some point is how it handles multiple dehacked lumps in the same wad. Older prbs ignore all but one of them iirc, whereas current prb helpfully processes all of them. I wonder if this is the issue here.... ?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Grain of Salt said:

 

One thing I know changed in prb's implementation of deh at some point is how it handles multiple dehacked lumps in the same wad. Older prbs ignore all but one of them iirc, whereas current prb helpfully processes all of them. I wonder if this is the issue here.... ?

Good job Grain of Salt, that is the problem! There are two markers called DEHACKED that are at the end of the wad, and these somehow break PrBoom+ 2.5.1.3 (for me). If these two lumps are removed (so the only lump called DEHACKED is the actual dehacked lump), then the Hive Mother appears to work correctly. If @j4rio can comfirm that this fixes the problem on his end, then we've successfully resolved the issue!
 

2 hours ago, Krull said:

Got stuck on the staircase fight near the beginning, playing with the latest GLBoom - the wall(s) won't lower, and there doesn't seem to be a switch anywhere. I didn't want to open it up in DoomBuilder and spoil the map, but I assume this is a complevel issue with voodoo dolls? What is the compatibility level for this, anyway?

This is classified as a Boom wad, so -complevel 9 should be used.

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Posted (edited)

In the final fight I've had a Revenant fall into one of the acid pits once. Given how deep these pits are, killing an enemy that falls there is practically impossible outside ZDoom. A solution would be either making them shallow enough to enable killing the land enemies that fall into them, or surrounding them with monster blocking lines. The latter option may negatively impact the fight by restricting Cacos' movements - would need testing.

 

EDIT: Another case of block monsters linedefs that could be considered are the Mastermind towers. Immobilizing them by knocking them just ever so slightly past the edge is not an uncommon occurrence.

Edited by tchkb

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Just finished it! I absolutely loved it for the most part. As far as visuals, this may be the best looking map yet. Now, I'm not sure what the "pros" would say, but for me, this was definitely the hardest one so far. Even harder than map18. I limited myself to no midsaves though, so that may be why. There were a couple fights that seemed like straight-up RNG fests.

 

I also found some bugs (and I have some commentary on some of the fights).

 

Spoiler

Bugs:

  • In the fight with the two cybers and tons of hell knights, you can hang back, let the hell knights move in on you a little bit, then creep around the linedef that reveals the cybers. This is one of the fights that seemed like straight-up RNG BTW. This is the fight:

feedbackfinal01.png.ab2e76a30dc3bdf339290607bbc51c5c.png

  • In the second to last of the tall buildings you enter to get to the blue key, there's a fight with some revs, a horde of hell knights, and a hive mother. If you linger back onto the lift you can take out the revs without alerting anything else because of the way the sound block lines are placed. Here's a picture of the fight:

feedbackfinal02.png.358277c42780213f2bd52da42486fcfc.png

  • An archvile got stuck for me in the third from the top of the big closets on the left. Here he is (the top one):

feedbackfinal03.png.e2ad9aafeb60d183ec0d188d675b6d43.png

 

Thoughts on some fights:

  • There's a "timed fight" in which a wave of barons comes, then a wave of revs, then two cybers, and then 3 archviles. There's also imps that teleport in at the back of the room. I suggest you add more teleport lines in their closets or make the closets wider. The closets right now are really skinny and long. There were times when I'd think they were all out, when suddenly they would teleport in behind me and ruin my rocket volley. It was seriously one of the most annoying experiences I've had in a doom map. I think adding more TP lines would allow them to pour out instantly instead of in staggered waves. After looking at it in the editor just now, yeah, they are WAY too skinny. Here's the closets:

feedbackfinal04.png.54b34c2d0d08592bc86e8f7c8c49b8a9.png

I'm gonna be honest, this was one of the worst designed closets I've ever seen in a high profile WAD.

  • There's a big fight with a ton of armor and health bonuses next to pillars. This one is brutal. I think it might need an extra supercharge lying around, or maybe I just need to git gud.
  • I think the final fight might need a blue armor instead of a green armor.

 

I'm sure there are more bugs I haven't found, but those are the ones I saw. I can't wait for the next map, these are getting better and better!

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31 minutes ago, Arbys550 said:

I suggest you add more teleport lines in their closets or make the closets wider. The closets right now are really skinny and long. There were times when I'd think they were all out, when suddenly they would teleport in behind me and ruin my rocket volley. It was seriously one of the most annoying experiences I've had in a doom map.

Actually am seconding this, as well as a few cacodemon closets which also suffer from this issue. The delays in the monsters teleporting can likely ruin a max run when you somehow miss a monster, although since I hear this map has hit the linedef limit I'm not sure of a solution.

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21 hours ago, Insane_Gazebo said:

- I'm also aware there are some issues with some voodoo scrollers in Map19 in some ports. (Eternity especially.) I'll have to get around to redesigning those to adhere to the speeds that are more reliable across ports. I was hoping the differences would be small, but it's clear they are not in some cases.

 

I've written a small primer on this subject, and it should help you get this stuff in line proper:

 

 

40 minutes ago, Arbys550 said:

of in staggered waves. After looking at it in the editor just now, yeah, they are WAY too skinny. Here's the closets:feedbackfinal04.png.54b34c2d0d08592bc86e8f7c8c49b8a9.png

I'm gonna be honest, this was one of the worst designed closets I've ever seen in a high profile WAD

 

And I've also written a few lines of text on that subject:

 

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4 minutes ago, NuMetalManiak said:

Actually am seconding this, as well as a few cacodemon closets which also suffer from this issue. The delays in the monsters teleporting can likely ruin a max run when you somehow miss a monster, although since I hear this map has hit the linedef limit I'm not sure of a solution.

This is not so much a problem of too little linedefs available as the improper use of what's already there. See the picture below for some problems:

- Cyberdemon needs exactly one linedef because he's alone in the closet, so the other 5 are wasted, also the closet has a completely unnecessary wedge shape at the end - another wasted linedef

- AVs are a slightly more justified case for having multiple teleport linedefs after the first one, but the lines are unnecessarily split in 2 with the wedge shape, which has no chance of coming into play because the closet itself is too thin - that's 3 linedefs wasted, and probably another one because I don't see how you'd need 3 teleport lines for 2 AVs

- With Cacodemons you could (if you wanted a fast teleporter) actually utilize the wedge-shaped teleport lines to speed them up, but they have no chance of coming into play unless you made the closet twice as wide

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe teleport is initiated if a monster crosses the linedef with the very center of its hitbox, so you need to give the monsters sufficient room after the last linedef so their center can move past it - clearly not the case here.

closetfail.png

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@tchkb Not saying your points are bad, but the problem is first and foremost that the closet that was highlighted by arby550 is just waaaay too fucking lengthy. The more the closet empties itself, the larger the delay between individual teleports becomes, due to how things only move in 2 directions in these "stick closets". The solution is to turn these 2 "sticks" into 4 or even 6 shorter ones to make sure the delay on the teleports doesn't get too high.

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On 4/9/2020 at 5:25 AM, Insane_Gazebo said:

- Some of the voodoo scroller speeds won't be consistent between ports, but after extensive testing it's fairly clear this shouldn't break anything.

 

I typically stick with a "Scroll Floor, Move Things" linedef of 32-64 units in length, or at least no less than 24 units. Once you start getting tiny some ports won't move the voodoo at all while others seem to keep the player at a minimum speed. And of course, anything faster and the voodoo may skip linedefs that are too close together (or at least coming out of a wrap-around teleport they do).

 

Also in regards to the monster closets, I usually make them wide and snug:

 

V1cghBt.jpg

 

It's a bit annoying to organize, but stacking your monsters shoulder to shoulder definitely helps conserve monster closet space. Note that going with this method prevents the "drip drip drip" of monsters in longer closets, so you'd have to adjust accordingly.

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18 hours ago, 3saster said:

Good job Grain of Salt, that is the problem! There are two markers called DEHACKED that are at the end of the wad, and these somehow break PrBoom+ 2.5.1.3 (for me). If these two lumps are removed (so the only lump called DEHACKED is the actual dehacked lump), then the Hive Mother appears to work correctly. If @j4rio can comfirm that this fixes the problem on his end, then we've successfully resolved the issue!

 

Yeah, that seems to solve the issue. Much appreciated!

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On 4/9/2020 at 11:25 AM, Insane_Gazebo said:

Hello everyone, the new map is here!

 

Haven't attempted a serious stroll around the map yet, but I've hovered around a bit while trying to take in the scale of it.

I must say I haven't been this impressed by any wad during the first 4 months of this year until now. What a beast of a map.. I feel almost intimidated to take this on alone, I need a coop / survival partner..

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Posted (edited)

Greetings. 

I'm reporting about possibility to skip fight in the yellow key room. Switch that opens balcony with the yellow key can be pressed just like it's in front of you.

 

Spoiler

doom03.png.fe0ba34993849f0c9ef8fda1e0a43721.pngdoom04.png.f7a46b7c01c1db71eb23d925e9a098dc.png

 

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Posted (edited)

Alright, got through 18. Few issues.

 

The first fight on the way for BK can be very easily cheesed into non-encounter. You only have to press the button next to megasphere to release the fight, take out those few sniping ledge revenants up ahead and just wait until cybers do the work down below. It's very hard platform for monsters to traverse so an occasional stray revenant or hk can climb up, but nothing that can be considered a threat.

 

The room where you obtain BK, I've completely missed invulnerability and found it only after forcing my way through the fight. I found out you can clean it out somewhat reliably anyway if you remain quiet after opening up hks, cacos and demons. By staying quiet, only a few demons will follow you and the rest of monsters will just infight with cybers meanwhile. Alternatively, you can omit releasing cybers completely, wait until monsters outside finish infighting, shoot rl a bit, restock, run up to cybers without releasing them and keep spamming the teleport destination for monsters in front of you. Since more of them teleport into cyber's cut-off room and infight there, you'll eventually clean out everything besides cybers that can be then spammed with plasma from outside.

 

While RK route was quite cool, the new monster itself is obnoxious at best. The instant fireball barrage without any prior warning and the random spread make this addition a downgrade in every sense imaginable. While those three fights with it were fine, it's basically a horrible, horrible addition that was used good enough to not stand out like a sore thumb. As it is, I'd say it's about as likable as plasma marines of scythe2. (Hint: nobody likes them.) Also, for some reason one of those bugs was already awake as I was trying to get into the hive section and kept blocking me from falling down or instakilling me while I was mid-air. 

 

YK section was fine, probably the only thing that seemed a little off was the text on cyber crates, kinda breaks the 4th wall, heh. I suppose just some cyberdemon sprite on that crate would drive the point across just fine, but whatever, I don't really care here.  

 

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I tried level 19 and that one was kicking my ass. I don't think closed up rooms with cyberdemons and robotic bees that shoot mancubus fireballs and rockets are my style. Speaking of which, has anyone managed to beat level 19? I like multi-hour maps but not when they are obnoxiously difficult. All of this raging to win is getting very old. I am not a fan of playing lower level difficulty settings. Ultra Violence is my style. I am concerned that someone is going to use this against me and that is unacceptable.

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24 minutes ago, mArt1And00m3r11339 said:

I like multi-hour maps but not when they are obnoxiously difficult. 

 

I hear a good strategy for beating tough fights is to RJ-skip them in GZDoom.  

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26 minutes ago, mArt1And00m3r11339 said:

I am not a fan of playing lower level difficulty settings.

 

Well in this case, even if you were it'd be pointless since Sunder does not have difficulty skills implemented, it's just UV.

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21 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

 

I hear a good strategy for beating tough fights is to RJ-skip them in GZDoom.  

That's true. My only concern about rocket-jumping though is that sometimes, you'll accidentally rocket-jump yourself out of a window of a building, which would then land you into a death pit.

@seed That's true. I've seen people play on I'm Too Young To Die and arch-viles do half as much damage as in normal gameplay, but that's a game thing and not a WAD thing.

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39 minutes ago, mArt1And00m3r11339 said:

I tried level 19 and that one was kicking my ass. I don't think closed up rooms with cyberdemons and robotic bees that shoot mancubus fireballs and rockets are my style. Speaking of which, has anyone managed to beat level 19? I like multi-hour maps but not when they are obnoxiously difficult. All of this raging to win is getting very old. I am not a fan of playing lower level difficulty settings. Ultra Violence is my style. I am concerned that someone is going to use this against me and that is unacceptable.

 

I've beaten 19 and I'm not a big fan of cramped encounters, either. I'd suggest taking breaks and segmenting the map into smaller chunks. It's a long, long map and while I really like it, it's not one that's easy to get through in one sitting.  It's easy to get stuck on one encounter for a bit and worn down, and then into a spiral of worsening play because you get frustrated. The map's an endurance test, don't be afraid to take it at your own pace if things go wrong. Clarity of mind and patience are way more important in this map than finishing it in one go.

 

If all else fails, I suggest playing continuous and bring in a BFG (or simply cheating one in if you don't want to replay 17 and 18) from the beginning. A lot of the fights in 19 are about time and space, the BFG helps you use that time and space far more efficiently than intended. I faffed around with one after I finished it and the BFG's more firepower than many encounters there are designed to handle.

 

For what it's worth, I feel 16's harder than 19. Not by much, but I don't think 19 is the hardest Sunder map on reflection. If nothing else, a lot of 19's encounters are more bite sized and there's less time investment in each attempt than 16's bigger battles.

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@mArt1And00m3r11339 Are you playing on GZDoom? If so, set the compatibility to Boom (strict) so that you get the intended monster behavior. Not sure if that will make it easier or harder, but it's a place to start.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Archviler said:

 

I've beaten 19 and I'm not a big fan of cramped encounters, either. I'd suggest taking breaks and segmenting the map into smaller chunks. It's a long, long map and while I really like it, it's not one that's easy to get through in one sitting.  It's easy to get stuck on one encounter for a bit and worn down, and then into a spiral of worsening play because you get frustrated. The map's an endurance test, don't be afraid to take it at your own pace if things go wrong. Clarity of mind and patience are way more important in this map than finishing it in one go.

 

If all else fails, I suggest playing continuous and bring in a BFG (or simply cheating one in if you don't want to replay 17 and 18) from the beginning. A lot of the fights in 19 are about time and space, the BFG helps you use that time and space far more efficiently than intended. I faffed around with one after I finished it and the BFG's more firepower than many encounters there are designed to handle.

 

For what it's worth, I feel 16's harder than 19. Not by much, but I don't think 19 is the hardest Sunder map on reflection. If nothing else, a lot of 19's encounters are more bite sized and there's less time investment in each attempt than 16's bigger battles.

I usually like to do the whole map in one life, even when it takes several hours (and not to mention, I like playing from pistol start). That is how I go about doing my maps (I've made levels that take 6 in-game hours to beat and I did it all in one life, pistol start). 

@Arbys550 I am playing it with Boom.

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I tested level 19 and it took me 2 hours and 39 minutes (in-game) to finish. I did it with saving and loading. I feel that it isn't worth doing videos of. I don't have the patience to spend months trying to beat a level without dying.
 

Sunder Level 19.png

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Only literal doomgods could beat Sunder's later levels without saves. There's no shame in it

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4 hours ago, Arbys550 said:

@mArt1And00m3r11339 I thought all or most of your videos of hard maps were tool assissted. Am I wrong in that statement?

Not all of them are tool-assisted. The demos that are tool-assisted are labeled as "TAS". What you saw in my screenshot is non-TAS. The demo of level 15 is non-TAS, as you see below.

 

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I agree that the evil bees are a bit OTT, fwiw. The manc spam attack is so thick you're basically forced to macro dodge it as far as I can see, which is less interesting than a normal manc. The flinch rocket attack is odd since the bee doesn't replace smm or cyber, so presumably it takes damage from splash, so it could kill itself (or other bees?) with these rockets (especially since there's so many and the player can trigger this attack deliberately by damaging them).

 

Having fewer layered attack codepointers in the manc attack and fewer rockets would do wonders for this monster's versatility imo.

 

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Yeah, it can infight with each other. However, it will never do harm, because they are immune to manc fireballs and nothing else can trigger those rockets. So now you have a bunch of fireballs flying in random directions as a bonus.

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Some people on YouTube requested that I do level 16. I did it with save scumming. It did not take 6 hours to beat like what Insane_Gazebo advertised. I don't know if he meant 6 in-game hours or 6 hours in real time with saving and loading. I see a lot of people beat it in 3 - 4 in-game hours (also with save scumming).
 

Sunder Level 16.png

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