Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

[Graf Zahl]

entryway said:

Wow, that's cool. Where can we download this (binary)?

I just committed the source to the SVN. Here's the binary I used for testing. The relevant option to force the new format is '-X':

http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4yy5q

Are there any real complications in implementation (for prboom)? DeepBsp's v4 nodes were pretty easy to implement and they (if I understand correctly) do the same things as zdbsp's compressed and now uncompressed nodes. Correct me If I am wrong

The format is different. Most importantly the entire BSP data is contained in one lump, not 3. There's 3 different formats, regular nodes, GL nodes and large GL nodes. Large GL nodes (>64k linedefs) can only happen with UDMF maps.) All relevant information can be found here:

http://zdoom.org/wiki/ZDBSP#Compressed_Nodes

Everything that's said there applies, too. The only difference is that the identifier is XNOD, XGLN or XGL2 instead of ZNOD, ZGLN or ZGL2 and of course that the data is not compressed.

The major difference to Deep's format is that the added vertices have full fixed point precision so slime trails are almost gone with it and it also allows to build proper node with some messed up overlapping geometry where normal nodes would fail.

Solarn said:

I just love how it's some unpublished insanely hard megawad that got the maintainers/authors of several of the most popular source ports to fix/enhance something major with your projects multiple times now. Masses crying out for new features? Eh, it's on the schedule. Sunder won't run perfectly? TO THE CODING DESK! I just love it.

It's not really just this WAD. The node limits are currently the first that's being hit by large maps so getting rid of it is something that should be an important item for each port developer. But equally important is that the methods to do it remain compatible. ZDoom's compressed nodes should serve as a warning example. The compression was just idiotic and hindered acceptance of this format needlessly. I'll be honest here: I acted now because I don't want to see Deep's format become the standard. It lifts the limits but doesn't do anything about the vertex precision problem which can also be a major hindrance for mappers that have to fight with slime trails and other anomalies. Better have a widely accepted format that does address this issue, too.

[Solarn]

Graf Zahl said:

It's not really just this WAD. The node limits are currently the first that's being hit by large maps so getting rid of it is something that should be an important item for each port developer. But equally important is that the methods to do it remain compatible. ZDoom's compressed nodes should serve as a warning example. The compression was just idiotic and hindered acceptance of this format needlessly. I'll be honest here: I acted now because I don't want to see Deep's format become the standard. It lifts the limits but doesn't do anything about the vertex precision problem which can also be a major hindrance for mappers that have to fight with slime trails and other anomalies. Better have a widely accepted format that does address this issue, too.

That makes a lot of sense. I've never used DeepBSP because no port I used supported it until now, and if ZDBSP becomes widely supported, I won't need to.

Not that I would need it anyway, because my creativity breaks down long before my maps reach the size where either is needed. But if ZDBSP really eliminates slime trails as you said, then it's still a preferable option to the standard node builder.

[entryway]

Graf Zahl said:

I just committed the source to the SVN. Here's the binary I used for testing. The relevant option to force the new format is '-X':

http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4yy5q

Why NODES lump length in PWAD table is equal to 4?

[Phml]

I just love how it's some unpublished insanely hard megawad that got the maintainers/authors of several of the most popular source ports to fix/enhance something major with your projects multiple times now. Masses crying out for new features? Eh, it's on the schedule. Sunder won't run perfectly? TO THE CODING DESK! I just love it.

Heh, it does seem that way at times.

As a player, I find myself more excited about getting a new map PM from Insane Gazebo than about professional games developed by teams of hundreds of people... That's said as someone who actually enjoys modern shooters.

Sunder is truly a work of art.

[Graf Zahl]

Because there's a bug. Apparently ZDoom read the lump anyway regardless of the incorrect length.

Here's a fixed EXE:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fj559z

[Jonno8825]

I love Sunder! This coming from me, who normally hates slaughter maps, I'm hopeless at them, but everything about sunder is perfect or near enough not to matter, even if I can only just pass the first level.

[entryway]

Graf Zahl said:

Here's a fixed EXE

Thanks. I have added support for zdoom uncompressed nodes to prboom-plus.

Though I still do not know where I can see that precision improvement. Hell Ground map06 still has lo-o-ong slime trails at start with software renderer. Should I get precision improvement somewhere without touching rendering code?

[jplstatic]

I had to type kill monsters in the console just to look at the architecture but I must say I am jealous of your skills

[Quasar]

Solarn said:

I just love how it's some unpublished insanely hard megawad that got the maintainers/authors of several of the most popular source ports to fix/enhance something major with your projects multiple times now. Masses crying out for new features? Eh, it's on the schedule. Sunder won't run perfectly? TO THE CODING DESK! I just love it.

Part of it is just how compelling this particular mod is with its insane gameplay and stunning architecture.

The other part is the ability to code something and get an immediate return on it, whereas with features people request, they may never actually end up being used in anything that is released during your own lifetime.

[Graf Zahl]

entryway said:

Thanks. I have added support for zdoom uncompressed nodes to prboom-plus.

Though I still do not know where I can see that precision improvement. Hell Ground map06 still has lo-o-ong slime trails at start with software renderer. Should I get precision improvement somewhere without touching rendering code?

What you see in that map is not a slime trail. It's some other kind of overflow caused by the size of the sectors. This map doesn't even look like it's a prime candidate for slime trails.

BTW, why don't you support extended GL nodes? PrBoom can load regular GL nodes so it shouldn't have any problems with them. Or is this just not finished yet?

[entryway]

Graf Zahl said:

BTW, why don't you support extended GL nodes? PrBoom can load regular GL nodes so it shouldn't have any problems with them. Or is this just not finished yet?

Yes, it is not finished yet. At least I should rewrite it for licence lovers. It should not look similar to zdoom, heh (should I even bother if I have personal permission from Randy to use his code?)

On other hand, I do not know how GL nodes help at all. Do you know ANY example of map, where GL nodes will help glboom in ANY way (speed, precision, more correct rendering or what?)

[andrewj]

Graf Zahl said:

Oh, and btw, since I finally got tired of everyone saying that they won't support compressed ZDoom nodes due to compression, I just extended ZSBSP to write an uncompressed variation of this format. It's all the same just not compressed and the initial 'Z' in the lump is an 'X' (both for normal and GL nodes.)

(I nearly missed this, a new thread would've been good...)

While that is a good step, is the compressed variation fully deprecated now? (ideally ZDBSP loses the ability to compress them). Otherwise it will keep being used and then source port authors will have to support both compressed and uncompresed variants.

I will consider "unretiring" from glBSP development and adding support for this, especially if adoption is high.

[Graf Zahl]

andrewj said:

(I nearly missed this, a new thread would've been good...)

While that is a good step, is the compressed variation fully deprecated now? (ideally ZDBSP loses the ability to compress them). Otherwise it will keep being used and then source port authors will have to support both compressed and uncompresed variants.

I will consider "unretiring" from glBSP development and adding support for this, especially if adoption is high.

It's officially deprecated (at least for UDMF as there are no specs for the binary map format to begin with) but not disabled yet. I'm still waiting for Quasar's response. Once I know what Eternity does I'll make a final decision but it's most likely disabling compression entirely. It's just not worth the hassle.

[entryway]

Is something wrong with zdbsp's gl2 nodes?

zdbsp.exe -x dv.wad -o dv2.wad
It generates gl-v2 nodes (gNd2 signature), but they do not work with glboom/+ (garbage instead of geometry).

glbsp.exe -v2 dv.wad -o dv2.wad
Works fine.

GZDoom does not load such nodes, so I can't debug and understand what is wrong there.

EDIT:
Looks like sizeof(mapGLvertex_t) is not equal to 8.

[Quasar]

Removal of the compression will lower the amount of prerequisite work I have to do, but it won't save me from having to link with zlib at this point, since we also need it for .zip support and for the new savegame format I have planned.

Back when I complained about the compression, it was when we had no other need - or planned need - for the library and it just seemed like a hassle to have to add it as a dependency.

So in short, do whatever you think is right and we'll follow :)

[entryway]

entryway said:

Is something wrong with zdbsp's gl2 nodes?

Patch for zdbsp: http://pastebin.com/4L1qXeZz

[ReFracture]

I just got my new CPU (Athlon II X4 630 AM3), now instead of 30 FPS at the start of Map 10, I get about 60 (Vysnc off)

GlBoom+

not default settings though, 1680x1050, render set to quality, etc..

been needing a decent cpu for a while now.
edit: interesting, I still get high 50s FPS with PrBoom+s software renderer.. I guess maybe my GPU is being the limitation here.

[General Rainbow Bacon]

@Insane_Gazebo: First off, thanks for the dl. Also was it your intention that an AV jump could be used to get the yellow skull in map 12?

EDIT: Map 11 seems a bit tame after "Hag's Finger" maybe add another 2000 monsters or so ;)

Map 12 is awesome though. Also, how's 13 coming? If you haven't done so yet here's a cool idea : call it Triskaidekaphobia and have all the geometry center around the number 13, and the hordes of demons be multiples of 13 :)

[tehdrunkdemon]

The wad is very intense! :P

[Insane_Gazebo]

Getting sick means mapping time!

I got a whole room done. Woah.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4885/sundermap131.jpg
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6352/sundermap132.jpg

[DeathevokatioN]

Insane_Gazebo said:

Getting sick means mapping time!

I got a whole room done. Woah.

Looks awesome! And also looks like I need to start playing some Sunder soon! :P

[Solarn]

Insane_Gazebo said:

Getting sick means mapping time!

I got a whole room done. Woah.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4885/sundermap131.jpg
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6352/sundermap132.jpg

Looks wicked.

[General Rainbow Bacon]

Awesome screens! Can't wait to see map 13.

[Phml]

Looks great. A bit cramped maybe. Of course, I also said the same thing about early map12 screenshots and ended up loving every part of it. Eagerly waiting for beta. :)

[tempun]

A minor complaint: dithered skies looks awful. A hi-color version would look much better.
Not that I can actually play these maps, though...

[Insane_Gazebo]

tempun said:

A minor complaint: dithered skies looks awful. A hi-color version would look much better.
Not that I can actually play these maps, though...

Hi-colour? As in, a higher resolution sky or just a higher colour depth?

I'd agree that the crushed colours and so on would look nicer if they were, well, a little less crushed. On that note, what ports don't support higher resolution skies/textures and so on?

[tehdrunkdemon]

[QUOTE]Insane_Gazebo said:
[B]Getting sick means mapping time!

I got a whole room done. Woah.

I always got killed by the monsters in the fourth room. Also, did you mean "make the room" or "play through the room" when you said you got a whole room done?

[40oz]

Insane_Gazebo said:

Getting sick means mapping time!

I got a whole room done. Woah.

I keep getting the illusion that it's just a sky flat being used everywhere and the background is the Ultimate Doom E4 sky.

[tehdrunkdemon]

[QUOTE]40oz said:
[B]

I keep getting the illusion that it's just a sky flat being used everywhere and the background is the Ultimate Doom E4 sky.

Oh, I didn't have an illusion about what Insane_Gazebo meant by "getting a whole room done".

[tempun]

Insane_Gazebo said:

Hi-colour? As in, a higher resolution sky or just a higher colour depth?

I'd agree that the crushed colours and so on would look nicer if they were, well, a little less crushed. On that note, what ports don't support higher resolution skies/textures and so on?

Hi-res if you have it, and hi-color otherwise.

As for ports: Chocolate (obviously), PrBoom (irrelevant now we have PrBoom+), PrBoom+ in software mode, probably Eternity. Maybe some other port I don't have.