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Insane_Gazebo

Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

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Insane_Gazebo said:

Something else :) Unlike my other maps it will have a lightly sillier theme to it, more along the lines of, say, the Mucus Flow for example.



I hope not :(

Aim for playability in the fastest source port only. Don't cave in to people whining about speed in their favorite port! They are whining here because port author(s) dismissed them. Just tell them to use a fast port.

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I really think you should implement difficulty settings in these maps. You said you want to challenge experts on these maps, but not everyone is an expert, including me. I can only just barely beat map 03 on UV. If you want more people to enjoy these maps, maybe make the skills like this: 1 - 2: Plutonia Styled UV; 3: HR-styled UV; 4 - 5: What they are right now.

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I'd rather not see the monster counts be drastically reduced at all in lower difficulties, primarily because you already get a bonus in ITYTD from getting double ammo and taking half damage.

What would help in lower difficulties are more powerups. Like in Metal Descendants for example, you removed the invulnerability sphere, not to mention made the area significantly more cramped AND added MORE monsters to it. At this point, I personally have no idea how you're supposed to survive this area.

For ITYTD you could at least add the invuln sphere back. Just because the gods of speedrunning didn't find it needful doesn't mean the rest of us are up to the task ;)

The point? Don't sacrifice the defining characteristic of the mod's gameplay. Instead provide things that might actually help less skilled players to deal with the situations at hand in the appropriate skill levels. Real runners are only going to play this on UV anyway so it will not matter to them.

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DoomHero85 said:

I really think you should implement difficulty settings in these maps. You said you want to challenge experts on these maps, but not everyone is an expert, including me. I can only just barely beat map 03 on UV. If you want more people to enjoy these maps, maybe make the skills like this: 1 - 2: Plutonia Styled UV; 3: HR-styled UV; 4 - 5: What they are right now.


I'm sure plenty of people who are not experts enjoy it the way it is now. Besides, easiest difficulty makes some quite drastic changes so I have to disagree. Besides, implementing difficulties would kill the point of this wad and take a grand heap of time, which could have been better spent making new maps.

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Probably not, but since no difficulty settings are implemented as of now, this is irrelevant.

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j4rio said:

Besides, implementing difficulties would kill the point of this wad...

How would opening the wad up to a wider audience "kill the point" of it? Obviously, UV is (like in most wads) the optimal difficulty setting, and one can argue all they want that people playing it on lower difficulties are missing out on what the author intended (that's a debate for another time), but playing at a setting one is comfortable at means they're likely to enjoy it a lot more. Besides, the people who are playing the wad right now and like it will continue to play on UV, and providing other difficulties will not at all detract from the UV experience but instead allow many more people to enjoy the wad who wouldn't before.

...and take a grand heap of time

This, however, is a very valid point. Quasar's suggestion is a good one that could help circumvent this a bit, perhaps.

I say all this because I really want to like this wad. There's a ton of effort put into it and the maps are psychotically beautiful, but the gameplay is unforgiving enough to the point that it's just not fun to me any more. Being able to change the setting could be a real breath of fresh air to some of us non-pro Doomers out here. ;)


Another point, while I'm here: regardless of how well most of the battles/traps would work in co-op, I'd really like it if there were at least co-op starts anyway. As it is, it's impossible to even try it, much less know how well it'll go, and it's still better than nothing since 1-life Survival is always an option in even the most trap-heavy of maps. I doubt it's totally impossible that someone'll find a way to make it work well in co-op.

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Well I believe Gazebo's point was to challenge experts. Currently it totally does, even on easiest difficulty, which was the main purpose. I don't mind at all if there will be difficulties, but not at the cost of time which could have been used to create new maps. If I_G plans on implementing difficulties, I'd vote for doing so once the desired amount of maps for wad is reached.

Actually once one gets to know maps, it gets easier to play them. Overkilling of anyone attempting a certain map for the first time is where this mapset scores at the best. Besides, one can always save during casual playing, though majority hesitates doing so.

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Also, bear in mind that the gorgeous architecture is designed with the huge, bloody battles in mind. With only "Plutonia" levels of enemies, it wouldn't work as well.

I wasn't a slaughter player myself when I first found Sunder and I enjoyed it immensely, even if I couldn't finish a map. Of course, in time I developed the skills needed to complete almost all the maps in Sunder, but when I started, I was only a casual Doom player with below-average skills thanks to playing so rarely and it didn't frustrate me.

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Just some bugs/observations ...


Map 11 ...

1. Lines 3249, 3252, 17585, 17594 and 17630 are missing middle textures - one sided lines.

2. Notice that lava at line 329 flows into sector 32, which is not a lava sector - and you have 2 sector 32's. I'm guessing you intended it to be like line 319 and sector 17 ?


Map 12 ...

1. Check floor textures between vertices 487 and 97. Just doesn't look quite right to me.

2. Line 377 would look better with a Y offset of -48 or offset nearby lines.

3. Switch at line 6718 can still be activated even if sectors 908/909/910 haven't been lowered. Suggest dragging line 6718 further west.

4. Lines 5415, 5417, 5511, 5510 and 5509 need METAL_E as middle back-side texture.


Map 14 ...

1. Two-sided line flag needs removing from lines 7715, 7724 and 7725.

2. Sectors 5343 and nearby sectors that use RROCK09 as the floor flat, should not do damage.

3. I think that sector 5458 should do damage if player is at this sector, so as to die.

4. Wrong upper texture at line 40464 - should be REDWALL1.

5. Was the player supposed to see half of SW1GARG on lines 47398 and 47393.

============================

Cheers - great wad !

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I also like the idea of more spheres on lower skills, rather than fewer monsters. Skill 1's half damage is all very well, but the double ammo unbalances everything and you end up wasting loads.

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On MAP09 you can still back out of the first "cage" area and get trapped outside near the start of the map. There needs to be a switch which lowers those pillars back down from the outside.

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Sunder is beautiful stuff, but like others the gameplay doesn't do much for me. I've played through the first few levels, but ran out of juice and just watched the rest on youtube. It seems that the battles can be broken down into three different fights, repeated over and over.

1) Run around in circles while the cyberdemon(s) kills everything. Then kill the cyberdemon(s) with a BFG.

2) Run around in circles while the monsters infight, then BFG the remaining

3) Run around in circles spamming BFG and/or rocket until everything dies.

This seems especially true for the later levels. As the game progresses the only change is these fights get larger and larger, and thus more running around in circless. I just watched someone playing map 12 running around in a circle in the same room for three minutes spamming rockets until all the revenants were finally dead. This is far from atypical, and might even be said to be the norm. This is fun to people? Waaaay too much of a grind for me.

I dunno - I guess slaughtermaps just aren't for me, and these levels are the grandaddy of all slaughtermaps for sure. I prefer levels that require the use of all weapons, as I feel there is more depth to gameplay that way. And less room so that monster herding isn't such a viable option.

Your maps are, without a doubt, the most beautiful levels I've seen. I LOVE the abstract nature - it all feels like a dream. So how about when you're all done with Sunder you try your hand at a few more traditional levels for guys like me :)

Much luck,

NT

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So many people who find slaughtermaps hard or grindy claim these maps are just about running around mindlessly in circles ; not a single one of them seem to understand the reason slaughtermaps are hard or grindy for them is *because* they run mindlessly in circles.

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Well I replayed map 14 for no apparent reason and noticed a few buggies.

-yellow key can be obtained if you rush into that pillar quite easily without lost souls teleporting in.

-battle in the room with cacos, revs and 2 archies teleporting in can be broken, but it's quite hard to pull off. If you approach the line which makes the monsters teleport very, VERY slowly and manage to activate it this way, pillars trapping you inside won't lower down and you can escape the room. That's pretty fortunate find because this battle is whole unfair and entirely luck-dependant on monster behavior and archie pain chance, IMO.

-battle with gazillions of archies and revs teleporting can be handled easily if you collect around 100 rockets and just shoot from above in the "room" with button which makes them teleport in, because you are basically safe in there. You can also make them infight and because of archie splash damage, a few archies will kill themselves pretty fast. This way you MIGHT save an invul which can be used in last battle.

-falling in red key dark passage will stuck you there, as floors are not set to damage player.

That's about it, also last battle is awesome ;)

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I found sort of a bug on map 6. When you open the door to the last battle, if you run, the door won't close behind you cause the tag that closes the door is to near. If you run back out, you will get trapped outside.

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Casual fan here, but this is a beautiful looking WAD, and it must have taken absolute ages to make, but just waaay too hard for me. I'm really looking forward to somebody putting up a successful run of lvl 14 on YouTube.

Cheers!

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I've only glanced at the screenshots but...

your mapping style is so beautifully unique and epic. I would love to give these maps a shot asap.

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The playstyle in these maps (extreme slaughter) is not for me, but once in a while I run around in them with godmode and infinite ammo, just to look around in the maps (and to mindlessly slaughter monsters lol). So beautiful.

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Grain of Salt said:

MAP03, 09, 11 and 14 are unknown to me.


Map 03 seems to have the same music track as Requiem map 08 and map 11 seems to have the same music track as Scythe2 map 16, although I don't know what those are or who made them. Neither WADs' txt-files shed any light on this either.

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