Do you consider chaingun sniping to be cheating?

[Super Jamie]

I had a search, and the last time I saw this was (briefly) discussed was 2004 with all different members, so I thought I'd ask anew.

We all know the chaingun (and pistol) have a code feature whereby the first shot fired is always accurately on center, before the pseudorandom code starts to make subsequent shots less accurate. Couple this with a dot hud, or crosshair feature of modern source ports, and you can take out distant monsters alot more effectively than just holding the trigger down and blasting away, as we all likely did back in christmas of '93.

With Perkristian's awesome smoother weapon sprites the chaingun changes to a single-firing weapon, and I asked myself how I would play with that? I came to realise that I chaingun snipe probably far too often, perhaps my playing style is even coming to rely upon it.

To keep my Doom experience "realistic" and perhaps a bit more challenging, I've resolved not to chaingun snipe. It's been fun running up to stuff to get most of my shots to hit target, instead of just popping out from behind a corner and taking pot shots.

Pistol sniping I think I'll stick with for occasions where I do need it. No doubt there will be levels where it's a massive heap easier to take out a distant revenant sentry or bunch of imps on pedestals. Having done pistol shooting as a sport in real life, I think it's alot more plausible that a handgun can be accurate first shot.

What's your take on chaingun sniping? Have I changed your mind?

[The Ultimate DooMer]

If chaingun sniping is cheating, so's wallrunning, item bumping, SR50 or any moves arising from exploitable code :P

(and if playing on -fast it becomes so more important to kill things from afar with it)

[Steeveeo]

I don't think the chaingun snipe is cheating at all.

Not quite sure what item bumping or SR50 is though...

[Super Jamie]

SR50 is a tricky version of Straferunning.

[DuckReconMajor]

Steeveeo said:

Not quite sure what item bumping or SR50 is though...

I assume by item bumping he means grabs

You can read about SR50 here.

Anyways, I really don't think chaingun sniping really provides that much of an advantage, so I feel no guilt at all doing it. I mean, really, it's just like pistol sniping, but faster. If I find the chaingun, I should be allowed to do that. Would you say that chaingun use is a cheat altogether since it's faster than the pistol?

By the way, you haven't changed my mind.

Super Jamie said:

To keep my Doom experience "realistic"

Not even gonna get into that...

[Super Jamie]

Yeah I know, "plausible" or "believable" would have been better choices of word.

The chaingun itself is not a cheat, as it continually fires in a random manner, not always hitting an enemy, or at least if it does, it's implied that you are close enough to be putting yourself at risk.

Wallrunning and thingrunning I would consider to be not-honest playing, unless the level designer has intentionally created the map so you need these things.

[DuckReconMajor]

Super Jamie said:

The chaingun itself is not a cheat, as it continually fires in a random manner, not always hitting an enemy, or at least if it does, it's implied that you are close enough to be putting yourself at risk.

Yes, but the pistol is the exact same thing, just slower. I don't understand why you would consider chaingun sniping a cheat but not pistol sniping.

[Super Jamie]

I consider it's plausible that a handgun can be accurate first shot. It's a small, easily-controller light arm that is designed to be on-target. I don't really consider it plausible that a gatling gun from a helicopter, a heavy fast-firing weapon with massive recoil, can be used in the same fashion as a sniper rifle.

[DuckReconMajor]

Yeah, I understood that point, but that gets into all that whole 'realism in Doom' debate that gets everyone ruffled up.

For me, that's an unreal thing about Doom that makes the game more fun for me. You'll have to decide the same thing for yourself.

[Use]

Not cheating.

[pavera]

I chaingun snipe and you can't stop me. Seriously, some maps with lots of distant chaingunners would be impossible for me if I couldn't snipe them...

[EarthQuake]

Not cheating.

[wildweasel]

Not cheating, because there actually are inherent drawbacks to being able to shoot with 100% accuracy - sometimes you need a nice spread to clear a horde of zombies and don't have the time to aim carefully. =P

Though in most of my mods, I tend to make it so while rapid-fire weapons can "snipe" like the chaingun, there is a very slight delay after releasing the trigger that prevents you from firing at full automatic rate while still making every shot at 100% accuracy.

[magicsofa]

Is it cheating that monsters never run out of ammo? Is it cheating that they always know your exact position? How about if you use your knowledge of the AI to purposely lead them into traps (like causing infighting). If I modded the weapons to be more realistic, I would make it random on the first shot, but I use chaingun sniping frequently.

Come to think of it, I use it far more often in deathmatch, mostly because players move so fast. Sometimes it's good to have a balance between tap shots and holding it down, to give you some random bullets but not all. In a way it is plausible, because if you take a little extra time with each shot you will be more accurate.

[Technician]

Not cheating.

[Udderdude]

Chaingun sniping is the best shit ever, you better believe it's not cheating.

[40oz]

IDDQD, IDKFA, IDFA, IDBEHOLDx, and IDCLIP are cheating. Chaingun sniping is a built in mechanic of the game and is not cheating.

Super Jamie said:

Couple this with a dot hud, or crosshair feature of modern source ports, and you can take out distant monsters alot more effectively than just holding the trigger down and blasting away,

Honestly I think crosshairs are more cheating than conserving ammo with the weapon. Maybe you should try sniping without a crosshair? That could make it more interesting. But in all fairness, being outnumbered 400 quadrillion monsters to one doom guy, it pays off to play unfair against monsters anyway.

[LogicDeLuxe]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

If chaingun sniping is cheating, so's wallrunning, item bumping, SR50 or any moves arising from exploitable code :P

There is a difference, though. The latter could be seen as cheating. It depends on what the author of the map had in mind, of course.

With the chaingun (and the other impact weapons), there is no code exploit, but making use of a pretty apparent feature. I guess, most players figured that out rather soon.

Understanding the way the BFG works is far less intuitive, I'd say. But is making use of that knowledge also cheating? I don't think so. (with the exception of the silent BFG trick, of course)

For the plausible aspect, it is indeed somewhat strange that you get exactly two accurate shots.

[GreyGhost]

Not cheating. When I'm "packin' 80 pounds of heavenly joy" and holding it steady as a rock - there's no way I'm going to miss the first couple of shots.

[Doctor Faust]

Not cheating.

[Ichor]

No.

[Gez]

Super Jamie said:

To keep my Doom experience "realistic" and perhaps a bit more challenging, I've resolved...

... to stand immobile in front of a medikit for ten minutes before running over it, simulating the time needed to apply first aid to my wounds.

What? No?

[LogicDeLuxe]

Gez said:

... to stand immobile in front of a medikit for ten minutes before running over it, simulating the time needed to apply first aid to my wounds.

Yeah, we need a mod in which a nurse comes in applying the medikit to you every time you need one. If it's a more serious injury, we might even have to operate. And pray that neither you, the nurse or the doctor gets killed during the operation.

Of course, for a more realistic gameplay, you also need to pull a car along in which you can store all those weapons and ammunition. 100 headsized rockets in a backpack and still plenty of space for other stuff? come on!

[scwiba]

Super Jamie said:

...crosshair feature...

Cheating.

...chaingun sniping?

Not cheating.

[Gez]

LogicDeLuxe said:

Yeah, we need a mod in which a nurse comes in applying the medikit to you every time you need one. If it's a more serious injury, we might even have to operate. And pray that neither you, the nurse or the doctor gets killed during the operation.

Oh yeah. We'd have to protect them throughout the levels. Maybe at the end the doctor becomes possessed by demons and we have to kill him. Drama! Tension! Now wounds are serious matter! And when the Icon of Sin explodes, you grab the nurse under your arm, jump through the window, Hollywood-style ("wait, what window?" "shut up"), and then you have the fireworks+kiss scene just before you roll credits. BLOCKBUSTER ACTION MOVIE OF THE YEAR.

[magicsofa]

Ryathaen said:

Cheating.

Really? Crosshairs were added to some ports, along with mouselook, monster/secret counts on the map in zdoom...

Where should the line be drawn? Jumping is obviously not allowed in vanilla doom maps, but things like crosshairs and mouselook don't quite break the game in the same way. I've also noticed in zdoom the fist range is greater than in vanilla. If I'm playing on zdoom it's inevitable I will be punching things from further away...but I don't think that's "cheating."

Most of the time I don't think the distinction needs to be made. I can just as easily chaingun-snipe people in deathmatch without a crosshair. I think if someone were to make a hack that gave them a crosshair on a server where it was supposed to be restricted, THAT would be cheating. But if I want to play single-player in an engine that alters the game's behavior, what is the problem? It's not like using crosshairs and mouselook and monster counts has made my subsequent playing experiences EASY...I still find enough challenge in the game, and it's fun, so whatever!

[Lord_Z]

Not cheating.

[Bashe]

If it's cheating, I'm the cheatingest cheater of cheatsville

[Stupid Bunny]

Pretty much everybody said:

Not cheating.

Trying to simulate a realistic battle experience in Doom by avoiding chaingun sniping is kind of irrelevant in a game where a marine can carry 8 large weapons, along with hundreds of bullets, shells, rockets, and plasma charges, can heal himself instantly with health packs strewn strategically about the floor throughout Hell and pretty much everywhere else, can run at 30 mph but not jump, etc. Also, by your logic the built-in function in which the weapon automatically aims vertically would also be cheating except that it can't be disabled in vanilla Doom and some ports.

[LexiMax]

Cheating.