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Hellbent

Video of me chainsawing Spider Demon to death.

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Not to mention the Spider Demon is trying to attack said Cacodemon the whole time, instead of the player.

If the aim of the video is to try to support your opinion in the "whats more dangerous? Spider Demon or Cyber Demon?"* thread, that Cyber is more dangerous, then this video doesn't show it; you could just as easily chainsaw a Cyber the same way.

*http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/46213-whats-more-dangerous-spider-demon-or-cyber-demon/

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Plus, the splash damage alone would kill the player at that close range even if the cybie aimed at the caco. Notice how the spider still gets a couple of shots on the player. If those were rockets, they would be pretty much insta-kills.

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I thought it's unsafe to chainsaw spiderdemons still. Just like chaingunning.

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Maes said:

Notice how the spider still gets a couple of shots on the player.


Actually, the Spider Demon was trying to fire at the Cacodemon the whole time. The couple of times the player got hit was becaus they moved between the Spider and Caco.

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Vermil said:

Actually, the Spider Demon was trying to fire at the Cacodemon the whole time. The couple of times the player got hit was becaus they moved between the Spider and Caco.


There's also excessing pain threshold: if you damage any infighting monster more than its opponent did, it will change targets. If you're able to inflict small, controllable amounts of damage you may keep the infighting on as long as you wish, but if e.g. you give the spider a SSG blast after each cacodemon fireball, it will soon turn on you.

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You guys, come on. The spiderdemon couldn't get a shot off. The cacodemon wasn't providing all that much assistance (although I wouldn't be able to do it without his help), as it dies in about 3 seconds of steady fire from the spiderdemon. And if you think it's so easy, do it yourself! It's not that easy. There's a little trick I discovered that helps keep the spiderdemon from firing back (may only work in zdoom, not sure), but it's not foolproof and it's not easy to execute for 2 minutes.

RjY said:

Nothing to see here folks, he's using ZDoom.


How does this help me?

printz said:

I thought it's unsafe to chainsaw spiderdemons still. Just like chaingunning.


uhh... yes it is! but less dangerous than the extremely dangerous chainsawing of cyberdemon.

Ledmeister said:

You could always try punching it to death.


I didn't really use blocking to get the spidey either. He eventually was in a corner but he could still move.

Vermil said:

Not to mention the Spider Demon is trying to attack said Cacodemon the whole time, instead of the player.

If the aim of the video is to try to support your opinion in the "whats more dangerous? Spider Demon or Cyber Demon?"* thread, that Cyber is more dangerous, then this video doesn't show it; you could just as easily chainsaw a Cyber the same way.

*http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/46213-whats-more-dangerous-spider-demon-or-cyber-demon/


Be my guest...

The spiderdemon was not trying to shoot the caco the whole time. The caco bought me some time in the beginning of the fight.

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Hellbent said:

How does this help me?


Try doing this in vanilla. Or Prboom, chocolate doom, eternity etc.

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Khorus said:

Try doing this in vanilla. Or Prboom, chocolate doom, eternity etc.

You can't describe the difference? I don't like playing wth low resolution.

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Hellbent said:

How does this help me?

ZDoom changelog:
October 29, 2003
- Fixed another Doom bug/oversimplification: PIT_AddThingIntercepts() checked the trace against a line running through the middle of the thing. Now it checks against the thing's actual bounding box, so chainsawing big things like the Spider Mastermind is much easier now. This also means P_LineAttack() doesn't need to position puffs/bullet splats closer along the trace since the hit location won't be inside the thing anymore.

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why would they do that if it changes how doom behaves. It's not a bug.. jeez, zdoom programmers are dumb.

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Hellbent said:

why would they do that if it changes how doom behaves. It's not a bug.. jeez, zdoom programmers are dumb.

Because some ports (Like ZDoom) are not directly designed to behave exactly like doom (IE: Prboom or chocolate), but more with 'fun' in mind (IE: Jumping, and stuff like that).

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Hellbent said:
It's not a bug..

Whether something is a bug depends on what you want the game to do. People aren't dumb just because they like something different. Some people consider it a bug because it makes shots that go over the physical location of the target miss, and make the fix along with many other changes, while others (or even the same people under different circumstances) don't because they'd rather not change the game in sake of consistency. End of story.

I don't like playing wth low resolution.

Ah, that's a new one... so PrBoom and Eternity are limited to low resolution?!

eargosedown said:
but more with 'fun' in mind

As with bugs, what is fun depends on what you want the game to do.

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myk said:

as with bugs, what is fun depends on what you want the game to do.


Of course. Personally I enjoy Prboom for its close replication of the original game. I was more or less trying to emphasis the point that ZDoom is not attempting to be a replication of the original Doom.

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myk said:

Whether something is a bug depends on what you want the game to do. People aren't dumb just because they like something different. Some people consider it a bug because it makes shots that go over the physical location of the target miss, and make the fix along with many other changes, while others (or even the same people under different circumstances) don't because they'd rather not change the game in sake of consistency. End of story.
Ah, that's a new one... so PrBoom and Eternity are limited to low resolution?!

As with bugs, what is fun depends on what you want the game to do.


Who's to say the programmers didn't intentionally make it like that to make it more random and more challenging? Somehow I don't think they wanted it to be so easy to own a spiderdemon with one bfg blast. Uber lame.
Do Eternity and PrBoom have freelook, non-infinitely tall objects and jumping for when I want those options?

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Well, Eternity seems to be for you at the moment. Some of the modding features from ZDoom aren't readily available in Eternity, others take longer to implement in Eternity. But it HAS stuff like freelook and noninfinitely tall objects, all optional. ZDoom seems to have fixed the height of Doom decorations, finally. You can now fire projectiles through them.

Features forcibly set by Eternity, as well as by Boom, if you mind them, include: projectiles no longer exploding when hitting skies, or no longer vanishing at wrong places (creating a difference when damaging explosions exist), unresponsive weapon switching (you run out of ammo, quickly pick up something again, BUT your weapon still switches -- that's not happening in vanilla Doom, ZDoom and others!), some BSP fixes (heh heh: the Caco in E3M5 may no longer see you from behind the door), humph sounds whenever you try to activate any blocking linedef (Doom only made that sound when against complete walls).
Demos running in Eternity cheat all these subtle changes: the bugs have been kept only for THEM, but you'll not be able to activate them in-game!

PrBoom seems to be more keen on keeping compatibility for Doom, even 1.2. Don't let its name confuse you: it's really a MBF variant (Marine's Best Friend, a Boom-based port). Eternity seems to have all MBF features, except PressReleaseDoom emulation (does PrBoom have it?), plus a few SMMU features, then its own.

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Doom still full of surprises....

I just started playing through doom 2 absent mindedly bout 40 minutes ago. Got to level 6, forgot the strategy for confronting the spiderdemon. I just ran out onto the lift and jumped out the side without going down the lift and landed on that ledge in the corner. Noticed I was being fired at like all hell broke loose from the spiderdemon. Kept running along that ledge where all the imp prison cells are. Jumped down to the lift and up and grabbed the soul sphere. Looked at the spiderdemon to see it was getting a barage of fireballs reigned down on its ass. Hahaha, what a sight. Wish I had been recording. Every imp must have been in on that action. I proceeded to take pock shots at the spidey while the rein of terror proceeded to just pummel the shit out of her. Didn't have to take too many shots. After maybe 10 or 15 I stopped and just watched the poor hapless spidey take a beating. Eventually it decided to turn its attention on the imps and slowly started to mow them down one by one. But it died by an imp fireball with one imp still standing. Sorry SOB! :DDDD Ahhh.. poor spideys. They're so pathetic.

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Hellbent said:
Who's to say the programmers didn't intentionally make it like that to make it more random and more challenging?

That's extremely doubtful, and even if it were so it wouldn't stop anyone from changing it if they felt it detracted from the game.

Do Eternity and PrBoom have freelook, non-infinitely tall objects and jumping for when I want those options?

Following what I said above, case in point: The game was coded without jumping and with infinitely tall actors (not to mention 320x200 resolution) quite on purpose but people added them to some ports anyway because they wanted.

In any case, the context of what we are discussing is that Khorus suggested that you try vanilla or a more purist port to see the difference we're taking about. Thus your answers of "oh no I hate low res" or "that doesn't have jumping and running over monster hordes" sound pretty retarded because no one is telling you to use anything permanently or in exclusion to anything else. The only way you can really compare between vanilla behavior and ports is by trying stuff also in vanilla to see the differences. PrBoom (or PrBoom+) with the corresponding compatibility level (2-4) should also be suitable for most purposes (excluding hard-coded limits). Eternity, while you may find it useful as printz says, is less suitable for such testing without messing with a large amount of options and settings.

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Hellbent said:

jeez, zdoom programmers are dumb.



Thanks. And you are an idiot.

Before making such oversimplified statements, better inform yourself why it was changed!

The reason being that it was impossible to chainsaw larger monsters with Doom's sloppy checking. They should have noticed themselves with the Arachnotron at least but my guess would be that nobody involved in the game's development ever bothered to even test how the chainsaw is working.

eargosedown said:

Because some ports (Like ZDoom) are not directly designed to behave exactly like doom (IE: Prboom or chocolate), but more with 'fun' in mind (IE: Jumping, and stuff like that).


Not fun - consistency. The fact that it didn't work right can't be disputed - regardless of purists' opinions.

eargosedown said:

Of course. Personally I enjoy Prboom for its close replication of the original game. I was more or less trying to emphasis the point that ZDoom is not attempting to be a replication of the original Doom.


Indeed. And anyone expecting this should better discontinue using it instead of complaining about inconsistencies in behavior. If something clearly does not work and break maps it should always be reported as a bug though but behavioral differences in areas where Doom clearly didn't do it right are all intentional.

Hellbent said:

Who's to say the programmers didn't intentionally make it like that to make it more random and more challenging? Somehow I don't think they wanted it to be so easy to own a spiderdemon with one bfg blast. Uber lame.


You don't code gross physics bugs (because that's what it is essentially) into an engine to make it more challenging. For that you tweak the weapons or monsters until the balance is right.

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Graf Zahl said:

Thanks. And you are an idiot.

Before making such oversimplified statements, better inform yourself why it was changed!

The reason being that it was impossible to chainsaw larger monsters with Doom's sloppy checking. They should have noticed themselves with the Arachnotron at least but my guess would be that nobody involved in the game's development ever bothered to even test how the chainsaw is working.


Okay, I apologize for calling you dumb :/. I'm prolly just whiney because I can't program myself and I have programming ideas which I'm impotent to do anything about. I find it very unlikely id software never tried to chainsaw larger monsters during playtesting! I have half a mind to ask Romero about this, not that he'd necessarily remember. It could very well be that they wanted larger monsters to be more difficult to chainsaw such as large anamotronic beasts whose gross metal parts would make chainsawing to any good effect difficult, and this is how they chose to 'program' it as it may have been the simplest way to do it (I don't program, so that's just a guess, maybe there was an easier way):

Graf Zahl said:

You don't code gross physics bugs (because that's what it is essentially) into an engine to make it more challenging. For that you tweak the weapons or monsters until the balance is right.


I guess the point is... it's kinda goofy that I can chainsaw a spiderdemon and eviscerate him with one bfg blast. I will check out one of these vanilla ports with high res and enjoy E3M8 as I believe id intended it.

fraggle said:

Youtube it.

Every time I tried uploading the video it failed. Not sure why; it quickly gets to 100% and then never finishes, even hours later.

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Hellbent said:

I will check out one of these vanilla ports with high res and enjoy E3M8 as I believe id intended it.

Even now you're not missing much.

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printz said:

Even now you're not missing much.

basically my only complaint is i don't like how powerful the bfg is.

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Well. Here's a ZDoom way of fixing that. Save this in text file you'll name decorate.txt or something like that, and autoload it.

ACTOR SpiderBoss : SpiderMastermind replaces SpiderMastermind { DamageFactor "BFGSplash", 0 }
ACTOR CyberBoss : Cyberdemon replaces Cyberdemon { DamageFactor "BFGSplash", 0 }
Now the big bosses are immune to BFG splash just like they're immune to rocket splashes. Only direct hits will hurt them.

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