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Hellbent

Scientific Inquiry into Human Identity

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For the full story and video: http://news.aol.com/health/article/boy-or-girl/489615

(May 19) - An Omaha child born a boy will start the next school year with a new name and a new identity -- as Katie, a girl.
According to the Omaha World-Herald, the parents of the 8-year-old say the child they first named Ben exhibited girlish tendencies as young as 2, when he would create long hair using scarves. A year later, he donned a tiara and dressed as a princess for Halloween.

The child's mother told a CNN affiliate that she's come forward to tell her family's story so people will understand. The Omaha newspaper reported that it is difficult to accurately estimate the number of people in Western countries who are transgendered, meaning they see themselves as a different gender, according to the American Psychological Association.

"If the child is truly transgender, it's not going to go away," said counselor Megan Smith, whom the family consulted.
Ben's family looked at his school drawings that expressed his frustration with feeling like a girl, but looking like a boy. They asked him what he liked about being a boy, and he always answered, "nothing."

Finally, they decided to let Ben be what he wants -- Katie.
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What do you guys think this tells us about how human identity is determined? I think it's pretty amazing that there are cases like this... seems very telling. The girl identity is seperate from the boy anatomy. Also seems to argue for nature vs. nurture for how we are: somehow I don't think Ben was nurtured to be a girl.... For whatever reason, he is a girl trapped in a boy's body. Fascinating.

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This is a pretty classic argument. A good way to think about is this: if you were raised in an entirely different environment, would you still be the same person? Would you still have the same personality, traits, characteristics, life decisions, preferences, etc? If I grew up in the Soviet Union during the 70's, would I still be me?

I think that we ultimately decide who we are, and a lot of that is greatly influenced environment (what gender you are, where you were raised, your family's social/political status, etc)

So as far as gender goes, I believe that (obviously) men and women have physical differences which influence personal choices, attitude, behavior, preferences, etc., but I see no problem with wanting to break traditional choices associated with one gender or another.

I have several gay friends, and I believe homosexuality to be a personal choce. Its a personal choice I don't care for myself, but I am fully supportive of it.

As far as this child goes, it is his personal choice how he wants to live his life. I am fully supportive of anyone who lives the way they want to live.

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Yes, it's a personal choice, but the questions is, is it a choice that is influenced by genetics or is it a choice that is influenced by one's environment? I'm arguing that it's a personal choice which has its basis purely in genetics. His parents said they saw signs of him being a girl at age 2. What in his environment would cause that to happen? I would offer that it's probably similar with gays as well.

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I think a big part of one's growing up is their own genetical background, NOT educational one. Nothing could have prevented me from becoming the antisocial prick I am :|

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printz said:

I think a big part of one's growing up is their own genetical background, NOT educational one. Nothing could have prevented me from becoming the antisocial prick I am :|


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printz said:

I think a big part of one's growing up is their own genetical background, NOT educational one. Nothing could have prevented me from becoming the antisocial prick I am :|


Last report I saw on studies of identical twins put the genetic factor to human behavior at better than 60%. Identical twins raised apart from birth are more alike than fraternal twins raised together.

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Being born in a different place will not change your personality, but may limit your potential growth or means of expression.

E.g. being born in a free Western democracy in the 20th century and having an opportunity to study and follow my natural tendencies, made of me an electric engineer.

If I was born in the dark/medieval ages and I was the son of peasants, I would probably become something like a blacksmith or a carpenter to channel my talent for tinkering, or maybe a monk to satisfy my need for knowledge. Sure, if I was born a noble I could pursue better education and become a lawyer or a doctor (the two elite functions of the time). It was also a great time for polymaths, back then.

Even if I was born in a mud-hut village in the jungles of Africa, I would have become something like the village's weaponsmith or shaman. Even if I was born the son of black slaves in the greatest misery, at some point I would have demonstrated enough skill to be trusted with crafting and repairing stuff instead of digging dirt at a field.

So...yeah, there's a base, unique identity for everyone of us. Only in particularly oppressive and close-minded environments one can't hope to at least being used in something he's versed in.

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Maes said:

It was also a great time for polymaths, back then.

You really have to question what a polymath was back then though, there wasn't an awful lot to actually learn. As funny as the Time Traveler Essentials Poster is, it's also very true. It's said there's the same amount of information today in one week of the New York Times as a medieval person learnt in their entire life.

Peoples' social and education conditions were vastly limited. You grew up, if you were lucky you got taught to read and write, from a very early age you worked in a field or doing a trade like smithing, and had little relief or entertainment, never mind opportunities to study or be formally taught or pursue your own interests.

Have people evolved over the last ~500 years to develop brains that are capable of learning more? Or has the western idea of the right to a good education and an increasingly artificially-assisted lifestyle simply provided our brains with more information as it becomes available? Will humans look back in another 500 years and consider people of today dullards compared to themselves?

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I was raised in a christian environment; I'm an atheist. I was raised in a somewhat radical right winged household; I'm both left and right on quite a few things. I have personality traits that most of my family members do not have.

The argument of our environments having influence on us has some merit, but it doesn't ultimately define us. If it has to do with genetics, then it's as much of a choice as choosing to be a midget, black, or retarded.

"You can choose where you stick your dick, but the real question is, can you choose to like it?"

The answer is of course, no. So the argument of homosexuality being a choice is moot.

Also, everything Maes said.

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Chilly Willy said:

Last report I saw on studies of identical twins put the genetic factor to human behavior at better than 60%. Identical twins raised apart from birth are more alike than fraternal twins raised together.

Exactly, excellent point young Chilly Willy. You have earned a gold star.

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nightmare93 said:

I was raised in a christian environment; I'm an atheist. I was raised in a somewhat radical right winged household; I'm both left and right on quite a few things. I have personality traits that most of my family members do not have.

The argument of our environments having influence on us has some merit, but it doesn't ultimately define us. If it has to do with genetics, then it's as much of a choice as choosing to be a midget, black, or retarded.

"You can choose where you stick your dick, but the real question is, can you choose to like it?"

The answer is of course, no. So the argument of homosexuality being a choice is moot.

Also, everything Maes said.


You saw problems with your environment so perhaps that pushed you more to defy it. Not in any real disagreement with what you said but your environment may have influenced you more than you think.

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Gokuma said:

You saw problems with your environment so perhaps that pushed you more to defy it. Not in any real disagreement with what you said but your environment may have influenced you more than you think.

The urge to form one's own opinion on curtain subjects doesn't really strike me as a "big influence". This is basically and everyday thing. Like I said before:

"The argument of our environments having influence on us has some merit, but it doesn't ultimately define us."

Striving to achieve a greater knowledge pretty much falls under this category.

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This is pretty fucked.

One way or another the kid will have to accept the fact he's a boy. Changing genders at age 8 is as dumb as picking out a tattoo at age 4. He's way too young to hate being a boy. He still has a lot of time to grow into it.

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JohnnyRancid said:

This is pretty fucked.

One way or another the kid will have to accept the fact he's a boy. Changing genders at age 8 is as dumb as picking out a tattoo at age 4. He's way too young to hate being a boy. He still has a lot of time to grow into it.


I guess it occurred to me that when this kid hits puberty, things are gunna get interesting.

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JohnnyRancid said:

This is pretty fucked.

One way or another the kid will have to accept the fact he's a boy. Changing genders at age 8 is as dumb as picking out a tattoo at age 4. He's way too young to hate being a boy. He still has a lot of time to grow into it.


You're actually wrong. There have been enough cases where people never outgrow it. They become very unhappy adults until they get their bodies to correspond with what they're feeling inside. There are cases where kids do 'outgrow it' but there are many times when people never change how they feel at all, and are miserable until they switch their physical gender. I know this from taking an abnormal psych class.

Patrick said:

I guess it occurred to me that when this kid hits puberty, things are gunna get interesting.


I imagine he'll get a sex change before that--otherwise deciding you're really a girl while keeping the equipment of a guy isn't gonna solve his problem, though, for him, it may be the right first step in the right direction.

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There was this kid in Germany who decided to be a girl at like age 8 or 10 or something, and lived the rest of her life that way. She became a pop singer or something, and just recently got a sex change at age 16. Can't remember her name though.

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