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TheeXile

"Too Fucking Long" - Does this phrase sound familiar?

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Well it should. It's the summary answer most people give when asked how long it took them to make their maps. Pick any major wad you like and likely you'll see what I mean in its text file.


So, if you're a map maker who can relate: Why does it take you so long to make a map? Clearly some amount of procrastination is involved, but what demotivates you enough to procrastinate as such? Also, what else could be slowing you down?


I'm trying to address this problem myself, personally. I really can't think of too many compelling reasons preventing me from finishing any map I start within a week's time, if I were really motivated. Yet I don't seem to be able to do so, even when I am.

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Real-life duties. If I get started with them, I'll be having no more time for the day to map. If I start with mapping, I risk forgetting about my RL chores and possibly get into shit. I got almost there, recently, but I stunted my way out.

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Actually, I don't think I ever suffer from mapper's block or really lose interest in a project. I just have so many ideas, I keep starting new projects, and never finish the old ones. To this day, I probably have 10 or more projects that would be very successful if only I would work on them and get them finished. The only stuff I've released recently is the stuff that took less than a week to do.

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EarthQuake said:

Actually, I don't think I ever suffer from mapper's block or really lose interest in a project. I just have so many ideas, I keep starting new projects, and never finish the old ones. To this day, I probably have 10 or more projects that would be very successful if only I would work on them and get them finished. The only stuff I've released recently is the stuff that took less than a week to do.

No mapper's block for me either. Even without real life duties, mapping for me takes a looooooooong time.

The answer's real obvious: mapping is a shitload of work, but why? Why can't I just make a few rooms, player starts, and an exit and call it a day? Because I want to make good maps. Let's break it down:

Gathering and creating resources: In addition to taking resources from others, I make my own as well. Since many of my ideas cannot be effectively executed without specific resources (and we're not talking about the 448 textures from Doom2), I'd have to make my own. This takes a looooooooong time.

Drawing the map: Sector properties, linedef properties, splicing geometries, things placement, triggers, and all that fun junk takes a looooooooooong time to satisfy. This is not even considering the design/layout/planning of the map.

Playtesting: Before I send stuff out to playtesters, I'd have to run through it myself to make sure it's playable and fix bugs as I see them. This takes a loooooooong time.

Those are probably the main factors--minus real life duties--that stretches my mapping cycle into years.

If there's one thing that keeps me mapping however, it's not the audience... it's the videogame-like nature of the process that is its own experience. What I meant by that is, mapping is very much like playing a sim game. I played Sim City 2000 for a long fucking time and creating a good map for Doom feels just like building a well-functioning city. A well-choreographed battle in my level feels like well-played round of StarCraft DM. Mapping gives me this God-like power to create worlds at my fingertips (a stretch, but you get my drift).

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Doom Marine said:

Gathering and creating resources[/b]: In addition to taking resources from others, I make my own as well. Since many of my ideas cannot be effectively executed without specific resources (and we're not talking about the 448 textures from Doom2), I'd have to make my own. This takes a looooooooong time.

Yeah, but look at maps like Nighttomb. 2 textures, 2 flats. You really don't need a ton of resources to do a lot. A lot of this time could be cut down with some creativity with existing resources, I might think.

Drawing the map: Sector properties, linedef properties, splicing geometries, things placement, triggers, and all that fun junk takes a looooooooooong time to satisfy. This is not even considering the design/layout/planning of the map.

This could be improved by better tools/better use of tools. Part of the reason I'm working on a Doom Builder 2 plug-in now, for instance (that I won't reveal until later, though).

Playtesting: Before I send stuff out to playtesters, I'd have to run through it myself to make sure it's playable and fix bugs as I see them. This takes a loooooooong time.

Oh yeah. I know allllll about this one. :cry:

If there's one thing that keeps me mapping however, it's not the audience... it's the videogame-like nature of the process that is its own experience. What I meant by that is, mapping is very much like playing a sim game. I played Sim City 2000 for a long fucking time and creating a good map for Doom feels just like building a well-functioning city. A well-choreographed battle in my level feels like well-played round of StarCraft DM. Mapping gives me this God-like power to create worlds at my fingertips (a stretch, but you get my drift). [/B]

I feel this is a bit of a double-edged sword. It's this "sandbox" quality that certainly lends a significant degree to why we're still here making maps. But it's also the reason why, relative to the time and energy we put in, we're not as productive as we should be.

Is this a good or a bad thing, I wonder?

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TheeXile said:

Yeah, but look at maps like Nighttomb. 2 textures, 2 flats. You really don't need a ton of resources to do a lot. A lot of this time could be cut down with some creativity with existing resources, I might think.

If you can do a lot with few resources, you can do even more with lots of resources. All else equal, the mapper with more access to resources will yield a stronger map. Do I need to provide... a certain example? ;)

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Doom Marine said:

If you can do a lot with few resources, you can do even more with lots of resources.

Surely you can, but the question here is about time.

An ideal vision of a map is not always the same as what is ideal for a player to have fun with. That's not saying that you could just take Deus Vult and skim off all the detailing and custom textures and it would be just the same. Maybe in terms of raw gameplay it might, though. But it could also have been possible, hypothetically, to have produced similar quality atmosphere and novelty by using mainly stock textures with a bit of creativity diverted to their use (like this, for instance). I can't say if that would necessarily have saved more time, and it certainly wouldn't be applicable for all instances (you'd have a harder time doing certain specific effects with just the stock textures, surely) but it stands to reason you could get similar mileage for (physically) less.



I guess the correct answer here (for the goal of efficiency, anyway) is balance.

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TheeXile said:

Surely you can, but the question here is about time.

An ideal vision of a map is not always the same as what is ideal for a player to have fun with.

I map for my own pleasure. If I need to create custom resources to accomplish what I want to build, I'll do it. Personally I don't see the sense in me spending the time to map in the first place if I'm not going to go all-out and make it the best I can, and to try to match up with what I'm imagining as I create it.

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esselfortium said:

I map for my own pleasure. If I need to create custom resources to accomplish what I want to build, I'll do it. Personally I don't see the sense in me spending the time to map in the first place if I'm not going to go all-out and make it the best I can, and to try to match up with what I'm imagining as I create it.

But doing the best you can doesn't always also mean freeing yourself of as many constraints as you can.

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TheeXile said:

Surely you can, but the question here is about time.

An ideal vision of a map is not always the same as what is ideal for a player to have fun with. That's not saying that you could just take Deus Vult and skim off all the detailing and custom textures and it would be just the same. Maybe in terms of raw gameplay it might, though. But it could also have been possible, hypothetically, to have produced similar quality atmosphere and novelty by using mainly stock textures with a bit of creativity diverted to their use. I can't say if that would necessarily have saved more time, and it certainly wouldn't be applicable for all instances (you'd have a harder time doing certain specific effects with just the stock textures, surely) but it stands to reason you could get similar mileage for (physically) less.

If by "raw gameplay" you meant the physics of the fights, then probably yes. The reality is that gameplay is highly subjective and oftentime includes atmosphere too.

The question here is if a mapper spent X hours to achieve 80% of his mapping vision, would he be willing to spend an additional X hours to achieve the next 15%?

It's pretty reasonable to suggest that one could get similar "mileage" with less resources, but in terms of realizing the mapper's vision as vividly as possible with the least design compromise, closing DB/DB2 and taking out Photoshop for a week is pretty normal.

At the bottom of it all, it's all about the mapper's intent really. Does he want to finish and release his map in a reasonable frame of time? Or does he want to perfect it regardless of the time required? Or both?

I myself won't make any compromises to my project for time's sake. It has to be completely finished and polished before it leaves the door, even if that takes a long time, after all, I'm not getting paid, what's the rush?

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But the cost is then I'll be X more years closer to death before I get to play it. :( DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT WHETHER I'LL STILL BE ALIVE!?


;P



There was a study done a while ago (I'll see if I can't get the source for it later) where two groups of people were pitted to solve a similar problem: One group was tasked with working on only one solution. The other was instructed to produce as many solutions as they possibly could.

Turns out, of the two groups, the one that consistently produced the best solution was, in fact, the second group.


There's other scientific studies to support this phenomena, too. Typically, our brains make the best choices right at the moment we're tasked with coming up with them, and not so much from being given extra time to spend in deciding.


But that doesn't also mean that extra time couldn't be spent researching additional information, and that additional information couldn't lead to better options. Which is kinda what you're saying with taking your time to "do it right", in effect. But it's both of these facts that are why I've asserted my belief that the correct answer is, in fact, balance between the two. Especially if your goal is "doing it right".

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Interesting, I can see how time pressure forces the neural network to behave in ways that isn't possible otherwise without time limit.

As a former competitive chess player, I've noticed that my creativity differed with time constraints. In a 5-minute blitz, my moves were mostly automatic, any brilliant move was inadvertent. In a 6-hour game, I was under pressure but had enough time to ponder the solutions. In games without a clock, I had all the time in the world to ponder the board, but not with the intensity of a timed game.

I found that my strongest moves came from the 6-hour limit, which was a balance between mad scrambling (5-minute blitz) and pondering without pressure (no time limit).

Still, in terms of mapping--even without the time limit--I've never ran short on ideas, the focus here is time it takes to execute those ideas to my satisfaction.

I guess I've already spent enough time when I'm not mapping to ponder the possible solutions, and now all I have to do is go in there and put work into it.

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Well I have to say you're one of the few that could reasonably justify the time you spend. Indeed I haven't yet hammered out my own methods fully, so I don't think I could judge what would constitutes said "balance" to the approach of map making.

Though I do still think there are ways you could reduce parts of your development time without compromising your intended effect much at all. Having seen maps like Nightomb and that old 10 Sector contest megawad (each created under separate sets of tight constraints, to largely good effect) has convinced me of that.

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Doom Marine said:

6-hour limit...


Wow, I know chess is a slow game, but damn, how do "mad scramble" and "6 hour limit" occur in the same sentence?!

I love chess... but never bothered to get good at it.

On Topic: my biggest hurdle is running out of ideas or giving up too easily on my inability/lack of skills to transfer my idea into the editor. As a result I've started many SP maps, but the number I've finished is only in the single digits, of which only a few have been uploaded anywhere.

Maybe that's why I prefer making DM maps. It requires much less time and planning to make a fun layout. And maps that are low no detail are still lots of fun to play. In fact, generally speaking, the simpler the design, the less vertices in the map, the more fun it is to play.

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Making maps takes no time at all.

Making good maps takes forever.

If you see Too Fucking Long that often means the guy put some effort into it. I'm constantly trying to find a way to make good maps in a fast pace so I can get my maps done without taking too long to do it and losing inspiration over time. I study Episode 1 of Doom a lot because that's a perfect example of good maps without too much work.

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I've never been bothered with how long maps or any other work of art have taken me. The process is more rewarding and enjoyable than the final result for me.

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Hellbent said:

Maybe that's why I prefer making DM maps. It requires much less time and planning to make a fun layout. And maps that are low no detail are still lots of fun to play. In fact, generally speaking, the simpler the design, the less vertices in the map, the more fun it is to play.

Would you say that if you had better, more abstract tools that you could probably overcome that limitation?

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Doom Marine said:

The answer's real obvious: mapping is a shitload of work, but why? Why can't I just make a few rooms, player starts, and an exit and call it a day? Because I want to make good maps.

This offends me, especially coming from a talented mapper like you.
I think short maps that were made in a short period of time with less resources can also be good, and not necessarily "weaker" than a map from someone who wants a bj from scuba steve (joke).

I don't have a problem with people taking ages to finish something, but why do you have to act like maps that take longer to make are automatically better? It's your problem if you want to spend ages working on something instead of actually getting it done. You can still do a lot in a reasonable amount of time.

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TimeOfDeath said:

This offends me, especially coming from a talented mapper like you.
I think short maps that were made in a short period of time with less resources can also be good, and not necessarily "weaker" than a map from someone who wants a bj from scuba steve (joke).

No need to get worked up about one person's opinion. I'm speaking for myself there, not anyone else. The more time I spend on my project, the better it gets.

TimeOfDeath said:

I don't have a problem with people taking ages to finish something, but why do you have to act like maps that take longer to make are automatically better? It's your problem if you want to spend ages working on something instead of actually getting it done. You can still do a lot in a reasonable amount of time.

The conflict here stems from two main schools of thought:

1) Limitation forces creativity.

2) Creativity is freeing yourself from constraints.

Depending on the individual's goals, neither is absolutely true for all... If it were, our thoughts would be similar and no discussion would arise from this topic.

The bulk of this discussion is something along the lines of: "You can do a lot with limited resources." "You can do a lot more without constraints." "You're more creative under pressure." "You're more creative with more options." "No" "Yes" "No" "Yes"... And it became a bottomless semantics discussion with no end in sight.

I am more leaning towards #2 because that's basically how I roll, more textares plz om nom nom nom.

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What takes me so long is that when I map I'm trying to perfectly recreate a vision I have inside my head. If something's not turning out absolutely perfect, I usually scrap it and start from scratch. This typically happens multiple times a map. Yeah, I'm probably being way too anal and perhaps a bit too ambitious, but I'm mapping for my own enjoyment and want everything to be perfect in my eyes (Though this still never happens, as I always find something to nitpick about).

Guess the old saying "Rome wasn't built in a day" applies here.

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Heh - I definitely tend to take way too long on maps (when I CAN map that is). My maps would be ok at first, then I'd start adding details, then I'd start "improving" parts by making them bigger, then adding more unnecessary nooks and crannies in every bit of free space, just to see if it's better that way. Eventually I end up with a sprawling mess of pointless clutter that's not even close to my original vision anyway, and I feel like starting over from scratch. The original phase of mapping - from paper to DB, is usually pretty fast and fairly consistent with the original plan - some parts I rework to be better than the first plan, some part take a lot of detailed work just to make as planned, but the problem comes when I over-work things to death, and start adding completely unnecessary, irrelevant crap that detracts from the main focus/flow of the map. Lately I've been trying hard to cut out that habit.

A week ago I got the inspiration to re-design one of my first maps ("keep running" and was very happy with the results - and I did it mostly in a few hours (on paper). I'd say a certain amount of detail is necessary for decent atmosphere, but anything more than that is going too far imo. My mapping philosophy is to adhere to one's personal vision of a map, or do whatever it takes to simulate a certain feel - but preferably from a minimalist standpoint. I've lately decided (at least for myself) that less = more. I just need to stick to the original plan and not stray from it.

I have no problem with other people's maps that are very detailed (ie kdizd) - if they can pull it off right, good for them (and I really enjoy well-made maps regardless of detail amount). I'm not actually trying to tell anyone how to map - I'm just stating my own philosophy and experience with mapping, where I'm coming from and where I want to be. I'm definitely aiming to be more streamlined.

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Christoph said:

(and I really enjoy well-made maps regardless of detail amount)


I really enjoy well-made maps that pull off a convincing atmosphere without epic amounts of detail. Case in point, Ultimate NMD is superior to alot of more complex WADs, and it's even deliberately underdetailed.

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I can think of loads of things that slow me down.

Running out of ideas,
lacking motivation or generally being lazy,
hopping between lots of different projects instead of focusing on one,
real life time constraints,
being overly ambitious and making things difficult for yourself,
disliking how the project is turning out and not knowing how to make it better,
being easily distracted,
etc.

They're just like lots of different hurdles you need to clear, some bigger than others, depending on the person.

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I remember asking in another thread if it was typical for Doom mappers to have a bunch of unfinished maps lying around on their HD, either from maps they've just lost interest in, maps meant for practice runs or to test out new ideas, or stuff left over from released projects.

Creating one good map can take days or even weeks.

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Damn this thread took off without me. :)

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I'm a perfectionist. This sort of came to me over the years, but I have this inane obsession with making every texture align, and having a thorough consistency throughout the map. I will actually playtest every couple of minutes, to ensure that I have gotten everything perfect.

And my maps are never very detailed either, or at least what most people consider detail. I'm used to making large maps for multiplayer, so I have to spend my resources carefully as not to hit any limitations of the engine. This is where my perfectionism makes the most of what little detail I have spread across the map.

I have one map in particular, that is probably the largest multiplayer map in the history of Doom. And for it's lack of intricate detail, it looks pretty damned good. I took me three years to build and it's still not done. :)

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I hate creating crappy maps, and sticking loads of effort into my maps is what I really like to do. I want to be impressed by my own work, I usually stop working on an room until I really start liking what I did.

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My problem is attention span. I have a slew of half projects (Doom, and other game creations). I always am really focused for about a week and then my ideas go astray or loose interest. Not to say I don't love it, its just me. Most of my maps are based around one idea and I have a hard time expanding them to make a full level. Then I et fustrated and loose interest in the level/project or in that enterainment medium (PC, consloe playing).

Right now I am trying to take some inspriation from Scythe 1 (short, simple idea levels that are fun). I'm hoping that if I can do this, I can get over this hump. Hell, my first map to be uploaded and shared just happened and I've been making maps for years (I think around 10 but could be 12).

Part of the problem could be skill as a mapper and my ability to translate my ideas to a game. This could be a issue for you as well. Also, since it is going to have my name on it, I want to to be good. Not half assed. And again, I think my ability hurts me here. I always try to compare my ideas/levels to the greats and that is just not fair to me.

well, kind of a rant, but this is my two cents.

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